Official Smashboards Combo Video Competition

[Fletch]

The easiest way to put this is... Brawl is Chess, while Melee is Checkers. If you know how to play the game with every little trick in the book in addition with a mindgame here and there, then you will play Melee. If you prefer patient thinking, mindgames, and predicting, you will play Brawl.

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Looks like I found a new quote for my signature.

 

[`DNS`]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on "Prediction not being skill". If this is the case then doing "combos" in melee isn't skill either. It's foolish to think that reading your opponents patterns and adapting to his or her mindset in order to benefit your play style is not a "skill". Melee is a fun game, but it is not Brawl. Brawl is a fun game, but it is not melee. The games differ completely because it basically two completely different fighting engines. The two should not be compared, it is soley based on preference. I prefer brawl because I like the mindgame factor of it all while people like Melee for the hitstun and technicalities.

I agree with this, but you can't say that Melee doesn't involve mindgames.

The easiest way to put this is... Brawl is Chess, while Melee is Checkers. If you know how to play the game with every little trick in the book in addition with a mindgame here and there, then you will play Melee. If you prefer patient thinking, mindgames, and predicting, you will play Brawl.

I'd say that Brawl is Chess while Melee is speed chess.
Although it's a very broad comparison.

I don't think he said that Sonics combo's are "harder" than melee's "combos".

He said that Brawl combos are harder than Melee combos, and his answer to "lol no combos in barlw" was Sonic's combos.

Also, I would like to point out that this competition is a fail. The votes on videos like the "metaknight" combo video are ridiculous and I'm almost positive that 99% of the people voting don't even check all the videos.. they just browse and say "oh look melee" *votes*... It's just a joke. This competition should be split up into 3 parts. Brawl Videos, Melee Videos, and 64 Videos, all with their own prizes.

If somebody had made a video of all 3 smash games.. that one should win.
I'd think that would best represent SMASHboards, instead of (Brawl|Melee|64)boards.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yall stupid you can't compare Melee to Brawl unless you can compare apples and oranges. They are too different and have different styles.

 

[Alphicans]

It's not necessary to divide the competition into brawl/melee/64, just don't do this democratically. There will be melee people who will auto vote for phanna's/rockcrock's without even looking at the other vids just because they're brawl, and then there will be the brawl players who'll do the same thing. The fact that there are more brawl vids doesn't help either because that means the vote will be more distributed as opposed to the melee vids where all of the votes will be concentrated to the two. There should be a panel of judges who have a very non bias view on brawl/melee. It's hard to find those types of people, but I know they exist (I am one of them). If this is done again take the democracy out of it, it's ruining the legitimacy of this competition :/.

 

[II Bolt II]

i think that's the best way to do things. i will say that they probably will do it better next time, and that maybe there is some intent or MLG to keep melee if we take this competiton's rules as an indicator.

No, they won't keep melee. Melee was taken out years ago, the reason why Melee is involved in this is because Melee was a big part of MLG back in the day, therefore out of respect of the game and its community that resides here on smashboards.. it remains in its competitions.

Also, I think that anyone biased to Melee should take some time and read this. AlphaZealot did an incredible job explaining the Brawl vs Melee Debate.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=444

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Looks like I found a new quote for my signature.

Biased Ignorance will be ignored.

I agree with this, but you can't say that Melee doesn't involve mindgames.

I agree completely, Melee does involve mindgames, but it isnt nearly on the level of Brawl's mindgame requriements. While in Melee, the combo's are used to take your opponent out quickly, but when it comes to last stock that is when the mindgames are put into play awaiting for that opening for the kill.

I can also agree, in some aspects, that Melee could be speed Chess, but again.. I still say Brawl is focused on the battle of the minds rather than just repeated practiced maneuvers. Melee will always look flashier and cooler as well because it just is.. lol But again, continuous comparisons of this game will always lead to nowhere because there are too many people biased to one game or the other.

Yall stupid you can't compare Melee to Brawl unless you can compare apples and oranges. They are too different and have different styles.

Exactly.

 

[Zankoku]

Yall stupid you can't compare Melee to Brawl unless you can compare apples and oranges. They are too different and have different styles.

Apples and oranges are both fruit.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

That might be true but the color, texture, taste, smell, uses., and other things are completely different.

 

[john!]

Is there a vid with both Brawl and Melee? If not then there will probably be two winners.

Here's the difference: Brawl combos require more prediction because basically everything can be escaped. They aren't really combos so much as "successful strings of reads". Most of these reads are based on both you getting lucky and your opponent screwing up, with fairly low tech skill and decent reaction time.

Melee has true combos which can't be escaped even if your opponent plays perfectly. They usually require good tech skill and reaction time. Reads are important but not as much as Brawl. There is less luck involved. You will probably get five to ten times more combos playing Melee vs. Brawl.

A more accurate comparison would be: Brawl is ordinary chess, Melee is lightning chess.

 

[II Bolt II]

Apples and oranges are both fruit.

I lol'd at this.

Is there a vid with both Brawl and Melee? If not then there will probably be two winners.

Here's the difference: Brawl combos require more prediction because basically everything can be escaped. They aren't really combos so much as "successful strings of reads". Most of these reads are based on both you getting lucky and your opponent screwing up, with fairly low tech skill and decent reaction time.

Melee has true combos which can't be escaped even if your opponent plays perfectly. They usually require good tech skill and reaction time. Reads are important but not as much as Brawl. There is less luck involved. You will probably get five to ten times more combos playing Melee vs. Brawl.

A more accurate comparison would be: Brawl is ordinary chess, Melee is lightning chess.

I agree with your comparisons.. but I was comparing using real board games.. lol Chess being "slow and having to think" while checkers being "fast and fun". I thought Chess was boring as a kid, and though checkers was amazing.. lol

 

[Zankoku]

Stop comparing ****.

Brawl and Melee's hitstun values are roughly identical, with the big exception being that you can cancel tumble, and by extension effectively cancel hitstun, in Brawl.

Brawl's combos are thus intentionally restricted to weak hits or things that do not place in tumble (footstools, grab releases). As such, it has become far more reliant on the neutral game - the entire time where neither player has an opening to land a hit on the other - and a followup game that is very much reliant on simply using positional advantage.

Allowing an opening in Melee is, by that reasoning, quite a bit more dangerous against a high-level opponent. If you get hit once, you'll probably get hit another five times, and there's very little you can do about it. At that point, it's less a measure of positional advantage and moreso on technical skill and execution. (Keep in mind that this means you have to play very smart in Melee as well - a single hit could kill you, whereas in Brawl you get multiple chances to avoid getting roughed up for more than one or two attacks.) Things also go faster as a result of this, since the limit on landing the next hit is attacking too late, rather than attacking too soon as is often the case in Brawl.

While watching a game of Brawl may be more appealing for those favoring Brawl and thinking themselves to be "intellectual" types or whatever, I don't think there's much possibility of denying that a video showcasing speed and execution will very often trump a video showcasing repeated prediction and baiting, when it comes to entertainment for the masses.

 

[II Bolt II]

I can agree with you on that Ankoku. Melee is just a better show which is why I said that the two should not be categorized in the same event. It's a shame nobody made a video with the two in it like everyone else had mentioned. Instant win.

 

[X17the17th]

Yall stupid you can't compare Melee to Brawl unless you can compare apples and oranges. They are too different and have different styles.

A random Smash Bros. game and a random classical 2D-fighting game can indeed not be compared because they rely on different game mechanics - edgeguarding, life bar / %age, mobility far more important in Smash, different structures in every stage in Smash Bros, no "shoryuken-like" moves in Smash...
You're saying the differences between Brawl and Melee are enough to make the two games unable to be compared directly ? Get real.

Spoiler

Or maybe you just said that because you know such a straight comparison would inevitably be in favor of Melee ?

 

[Meneks]

I honestly dont see whats there to compare about a game that the only necessary skill needed is spacing vs a game that the necessary skills are spacing/tech skill/smarts/patience..
Yeah you can say brawl needs patience only cause the matches are so incredibly long..
/discussion...

In other news phannas vid is pretty cool amirite?

 

[Oracle]

I can agree with you on that Ankoku. Melee is just a better show which is why I said that the two should not be categorized in the same event. It's a shame nobody made a video with the two in it like everyone else had mentioned. Instant win.

No one did that because they would get bored of the brawl parts really fast. Some brawl stuff actually is kind of fast and entertaining (diddy combos), but when you put the games side by side, melee will always be more entertaining because of the little things that sakurai put in brawl to slow it down, for example the ridiculous hitlag times on powerful moves.

Also lol at everyone who says that combos are rehearsed patterns. Because of DI, a combo will never work 100% of the time. For example, you up air peach with falcon, off of the stage. If she DI's down, then you have to either end the combo with an up air, which won't kill her, or retreat to the ledge because she is out of range of your knee. If she doesn't DI, you can knee her. If she DI's up, then you can't knee her or up air her because she goes too far out of your range.

Something isn't "Guaranteed" if there are variables like DI. This is why Melee combos are more impressive than brawl strings; you have to use reactions and in some cases predictions while comboing.

Yes, a combo video of all three would be good, I'll agree with you on that.

I said his video represented Smashboards because whether people disagree or not, the future of Smash is inevitable. MLG no longer has melee on its belt and Brawl is next in line.. it's only a matter of time before it goes mainstream along with the other big games. Since Smashboards is owned by Major League Gaming, it's only respectable to keep up with the most current game to date. Games that are so many years old will always remain great, but no matter what, the latest game always prevails. Halo 2 was better than Halo 3, yet Halo 3 is MLG. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

It isn't going to go mainstream simply because it's so **** boring. No one who doesn't understand what's going on likes to watch brawl because nothing exciting happens. If they barely have an understanding of the game, then things like zoning and spacing mean nothing to them and it's boring. In melee, they can see isai hit ken 12 times in a row and knee him so that he dies.

 

[DunSkies]

comparing melee to checkers and brawl to chess is the dumbest sh** i've ever read on this site

you're so clueless it's insane

 

[Solaris1110]

if this thread wasn't part of the announcements discussion, it would be closed lol.

....but instead of saying apples and oranges, its closer to like... breakdancing and popping.

 

[II Bolt II]

It isn't going to go mainstream simply because it's so **** boring. No one who doesn't understand what's going on likes to watch brawl because nothing exciting happens. If they barely have an understanding of the game, then things like zoning and spacing mean nothing to them and it's boring. In melee, they can see isai hit ken 12 times in a row and knee him so that he dies.

No sorry, this is not Valid. M2K vs Ally at Apex. I know I wasn't the only one freaking out during that first stock in the first match. Not all the matches are boring.. that is just your bias opinion. Melee is a good show, but Brawl can be good as well. Ally and M2K are the peek players of Brawl and because of that, you get a good show. We don't have MLG to bring the BEST of the BEST out of hiding yet, so we wait..

comparing melee to checkers and brawl to chess is the dumbest sh** i've ever read on this site

you're so clueless it's insane

Just because I think outside of the box instead of following every Melee obsessed individual doesn't make me "clueless".

----

I'm not going to argue with you guys about Melee and Brawl anymore because it is pointless. Melee Players continue loving your game, I will continue to love mine.. but at least I have the decency to fend for both because I am grateful for such games in the first place. Now people please refer back to the original Topic of the contest.

 

[Vsin]

Hmmm...

Melee is, in my mind, far more entertaining to watch. Put it this way, what's more interesting to watch: Goku and Vegeta flying around at invisible speeds throwing punches from every direction, or the two of them standing and charging up spirit bombs? Both require skill to do, and both require different types of skill.

I do OK at Melee and get absolutely pummeled at Brawl. I've played against actually good Brawl players, and they do wipe the floor against people. Granted, you don't see much 3-stocking going on, but the skill is shown by just "certain win" as opposed to "overwhelming win". I've also played against great Melee players (the big-name being Zhu...he 2-by-4ed me in my first tourney) and they too have a lot of skill. Indeed, I the noob got torn to bits by all the veterans.

So when it comes to skill, I say that both are equal. However, Brawl matches tend to be very long and boring to watch. A Melee match usually won't take more than 4 minutes, if that. Brawl matches, on the other hand, go on for at least those 4 minutes, with 6 minutes being the average I've seen. Also, Melee matches just look faster: the characters fly around the screen like mad, attacks come out every instant, and the pace is altogether frantic. Brawl matches consist of a lot of camping, aka holding ground and waiting for an opening. This isn't to say that such a thing is unskillful; indeed, messing this up can cost the stock, but watching 2 people stare each other down stops being interesting after too much time passes.

Neither am I saying that Brawl can't be entertaining to watch. I just saw the M2K vs. Ally match, and that was pretty darn epic. I've seen the submissions and I enjoy many of those too. However, if you show your average Brawl match, I personally believe that they're pretty darn boring. At the very least, a regular Melee match has very high speed and a reasonably short time.

As such, I can't see a Brawl video coming first for this. Brawlers will support Brawl, and Meleers will support Melee, but if a random person comes across this thread chances are that he/she will pick Melee.

Football and Golf both require intense amounts of skill. The skill required is different. So why is it that the Superbowl is a practical holiday, while a Masters game isn't?

 

[Zankoku]

Just because I think outside of the box instead of following every Melee obsessed individual doesn't make me "clueless".

Honestly, comparing Melee to checkers is an insult. Did you know that checkers has been solved? Are you seriously implying that Melee is a simpler game with fewer options during the game than Brawl?

 

[DunSkies]

Are you seriously implying that Melee is a simpler game with fewer options during the game than Brawl?

this is why that guy has no idea what he's talking about

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I do OK at Melee and get absolutely pummeled at Brawl.

The rest of the novel you typed does not matter because of this. You have no right to speak...ok, the Declaration says you do, but no one really cares. Especially if you have no good tourney records, which proves my point even more.

 

[Zankoku]

The rest of the novel you typed does not matter because of this. You have no right to speak...ok, the Declaration says you do, but no one really cares. Especially if you have no good tourney records, which proves my point even more.

Pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Oracle]

No sorry, this is not Valid. M2K vs Ally at Apex. I know I wasn't the only one freaking out during that first stock in the first match. Not all the matches are boring.. that is just your bias opinion. Melee is a good show, but Brawl can be good as well. Ally and M2K are the peek players of Brawl and because of that, you get a good show. We don't have MLG to bring the BEST of the BEST out of hiding yet, so we wait..

But that's it. You play competitively, so you know what's going on. Someone watching M2K vs. Ally wouldn't know what was going on. A mainstream viewer would probably be like "This camping **** is gay why don't they hit each other". Whereas it's easy to recognize that something awesome just happened with other MLG games, like in Halo where pros can do ridiculous things like get three consecutive no scope headshots, or in melee, where there is an awesome combo.

 

[`DNS`]

It isn't going to go mainstream simply because it's so **** boring. No one who doesn't understand what's going on likes to watch brawl because nothing exciting happens. If they barely have an understanding of the game, then things like zoning and spacing mean nothing to them and it's boring. In melee, they can see isai hit ken 12 times in a row and knee him so that he dies.

**** isai is too good

 

[Alphicans]

The rest of the novel you typed does not matter because of this. You have no right to speak...ok, the Declaration says you do, but no one really cares. Especially if you have no good tourney records, which proves my point even more.

Lol why? Maybe he's better at melee? It's not that hard to believe >_>.

 

[Fletch]

Honestly, comparing Melee to checkers is an insult. Did you know that checkers has been solved? Are you seriously implying that Melee is a simpler game with fewer options during the game than Brawl?

This is exactly why I quoted him and responded only with an "LOL". You're not going to be able to argue or change this kind of person's mind though, so good luck trying.

 

[2.72]

Biased Ignorance will be ignored.

You should all follow this guy's advice and ignore him.

 

[Suspect]

^agreed .

 

[`DNS`]

The rest of the novel you typed does not matter because of this. You have no right to speak...ok, the Declaration says you do, but no one really cares. Especially if you have no good tourney records, which proves my point even more.

Did you really just say the Declaration of Independence gives you the freedom of speech?
Quit life.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

The rest of the novel you typed does not matter because of this. You have no right to speak...ok, the Constitution says you do, but no one really cares. Especially if you have no good tourney records, which proves my point even more.

Fixed, what else can I do for you sobs?

 

[II Bolt II]

My apologies for insulting the melee community with the checkers reference. No need for hate, Melee is a great game, I just wish people wouldn't hate on Brawl soo much.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

My apologies for insulting the melee community with the checkers reference. No need for hate, Melee is a great game, I just wish people wouldn't hate on Brawl soo much.

People can be scrubs when they have a disability of not being able to have different mindsets. Not referring to you.

A game obviously has value if people play it. But chess and checkers aren't fun to watch, only fun to play. You won't understand Brawl (ever) if you can't get your thinking straight.

How 'bout we compare Melee to Link w/ a revolver and Brawl to Link w/ a shotgun. jk/

 

[JayBee]

No one did that because they would get bored of the brawl parts really fast. Some brawl stuff actually is kind of fast and entertaining (diddy combos), but when you put the games side by side, melee will always be more entertaining because of the little things that sakurai put in brawl to slow it down, for example the ridiculous hitlag times on powerful moves.

Also lol at everyone who says that combos are rehearsed patterns. Because of DI, a combo will never work 100% of the time. For example, you up air peach with falcon, off of the stage. If she DI's down, then you have to either end the combo with an up air, which won't kill her, or retreat to the ledge because she is out of range of your knee. If she doesn't DI, you can knee her. If she DI's up, then you can't knee her or up air her because she goes too far out of your range.

Something isn't "Guaranteed" if there are variables like DI. This is why Melee combos are more impressive than brawl strings; you have to use reactions and in some cases predictions while comboing.
It isn't going to go mainstream simply because it's so **** boring. No one who doesn't understand what's going on likes to watch brawl because nothing exciting happens. If they barely have an understanding of the game, then things like zoning and spacing mean nothing to them and it's boring. In melee, they can see isai hit ken 12 times in a row and knee him so that he dies.

even if i agreed that melee was enjoyable, it would be based soley off of perference. Also, from all the melee I've played and watched, the effect of DI on a combo or "string of moves" or whatever has more effect in brawl than in melee; in melee, a person can DI and still get finished off. even if the combo isn't "guarenteed" like you say, theres no doubt that it is a lot more than in brawl so long as you practice the motions. you have to predict and show different looks to your opponent a lot more in brawl because they can do more to stop you. This simply makes sense, and i dont see how that statement can be refuted.

It sounds like the people who "wouldn't understand spacing and zoning" dont play video games at all. either that or you dont give intellegent people enough credit. last time i checked the general rules of brawl are very easy to understand, in fact Brawl itself is easier to understand and PLAY because sakurai intended it to be more accessable. so the theory that people wont understand a game that is easier to comprehend than melee makes no sense without disrepecting those people with assumptions on thier intellect.

and combos ARE rehersed! are you saying that you can do combos in melee without any kind of training, practice, or whatever to get them performed as well as you first saw them? that is illogical and you know it. even if you have to adjust mid combo to DI or the stage, that only shows another aspect of your quick thinking, and doesn't in anyway discredit your rehersal of those motions, which in this game, is the smart option to do.

by the way, if someone didn't know what was going on, what the heck is wrong with them finding the answer? come on people! that's how you understand things right? by asking and finding out the answer? if they give up there without even trying then good riddence. if a person can put up with the 0 to death combos in melee and love it, then play brawl and quit it just because of camping, then good bye. enjoy melee. honestly, if still seems like the brawl community is growing still, even with these "deficiancies" that make brawl "boring." i see new posters in the sonic boards every week or so for example.

 

[Oracle]

My apologies for insulting the melee community with the checkers reference. No need for hate, Melee is a great game, I just wish people wouldn't hate on Brawl soo much.

If you don't want the hate don't be ignorant. Comparing melee to checkers while comparing brawl to chess is, simply put, stupid. Brawl's lack of depth leaves it with less options, so it has less strategy than melee. In brawl, people just think it's a strategy game because that's all that they're left with.

even if i agreed that melee was enjoyable, it would be based soley off of perference. Also, from all the melee I've played and watched, the effect of DI on a combo or "string of moves" or whatever has more effect in brawl than in melee; in melee, a person can DI and still get finished off. even if the combo isn't "guarenteed" like you say, theres no doubt that it is a lot more than in brawl so long as you practice the motions. you have to predict and show different looks to your opponent a lot more in brawl because they can do more to stop you. This simply makes sense, and i dont see how that statement can be refuted.

That paragraph doesn't even make sense. Show different looks to your opponent? What?

It sounds like the people who "wouldn't understand spacing and zoning" dont play video games at all. either that or you dont give intellegent people enough credit. last time i checked the general rules of brawl are very easy to understand, in fact Brawl itself is easier to understand and PLAY because sakurai intended it to be more accessable. so the theory that people wont understand a game that is easier to comprehend than melee makes no sense without disrepecting those people with assumptions on thier intellect.

Mainstream audiences don't understand the strategy involved in spacing and zoning. They just see it as two people not doing anything and playing the game badly. It also looks boring to them.

I'm not saying that brawl players won't understand it, I'm saying that mainstream audiences, aka the people who MLG attracts, won't understand it. Try showing a pro brawl match to your friends who don't play and see if they appreciate it as much as you do.

and combos ARE rehersed! are you saying that you can do combos in melee without any kind of training, practice, or whatever to get them performed as well as you first saw them? that is illogical and you know it. even if you have to adjust mid combo to DI or the stage, that only shows another aspect of your quick thinking, and doesn't in anyway discredit your rehersal of those motions, which in this game, is the smart option to do.

They aren't rehearsed in the sense that MVC2 combos are rehearsed. You have to react quickly to your opponent's DI and trajectory to continue the combo with different moves. In mvc2 (and with brawl strings), you can't DI out of them, so it's a rehearsed series of inputs, like the IC's CG's. Hylian once said that he could play someone blindfolded with the IC's so long as he got one grab at the beginning of each stock, and he would always win, because the IC's CG's are un DI able out of.

You need to practice to combo, but it isn't a preset series of inputs, and therfore not rehearsed.

by the way, if someone didn't know what was going on, what the heck is wrong with them finding the answer? come on people! that's how you understand things right? by asking and finding out the answer? if they give up there without even trying then good riddence. if a person can put up with the 0 to death combos in melee and love it, then play brawl and quit it just because of camping, then good bye. enjoy melee. honestly, if still seems like the brawl community is growing still, even with these "deficiancies" that make brawl "boring." i see new posters in the sonic boards every week or so for example.

This paragraph doesn't make sense either. Are you attacking melee players for "not knowing what's going on" or the casual players?

Also good job insulting my arguments and talking condescendingly.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Why is it hard to understand? "Show different looks" obviously means different mindgames and approaches/defense. And paragraph 4 talks about the casuals, but I see where you got thrown off. O.o

Edit: I guess I'll dumb down ppl's statements in thread.

 

[JayBee]

i bet you if i did, even if i appreciated it more, those people would still enjoy it. then I can show them how it was done and they'd understand and enjoy more. I could even show them how its done becuase its usually not that hard to do. there isn't a lot of hard camping in brawl in general except in certain matchups, (like against IC's) anyway, so looking for exciting and fun matches is as easy as going to youtube.com.


and i wasn't attacking anyone in that paragraph. im just stating the obvious. this is the information age; don't know something? you're a .com away from finding it out. seriously.

 

[Zankoku]

High level play involving Snake, King Dedede, Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Pit very often involves heavily defensive play, otherwise known as "doing nothing while pretending to do something."

By the way, I'd argue that in Melee, since getting punished for an opening leads to far more damage than in Brawl, a difference in both skill and mental game becomes far more apparent. Yes, a combo in Melee hurts like hell, but it still needs that initial hit. Any intelligent player isn't going to leave the same opening for the same attack 8 times in a row.

 

[Juggleguy]

ROFL at person comparing Melee to Checkers and Brawl to Chess. Other way around, bro.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol at a guy lol'ing at a stupid comparison and then making himself look even stupider by making the same comparison =D.

 

[Vsin]

Hmm, I'll try to summarize the argument so far:

Brawl isn't bad to play, it just looks mediocre to watch.

Is that roughly what the argument is revolving around right now?

EDIT:
Yay I failed word choice 101. And even now the edit probably still fails.