Squidster
Smash Ace
Sheik / Zelda has oodles of potential
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- Thread starter Wildfire393
- Start date
Tristan, where is all this hate for Zelda coming from? It sounds like you think Zelda is a slow, stumbling character that can't combo and has hard times hitting people. Besides Sheik I play primarily Zelda. Her nair auto cancels, her hyphen smash is one of the most useful in the game, she eats sheild alive(fsmash,usmash), you can glide toss dins into a hyphen smash(unless they know it's coming), her dsmash has to be one of the fastest in the game, she has a tilt lock(dtilt), a reflector which pushes people in the direction she's facing(I can't stress how useful this is), farore's wind mind games, her airdodge and spotdodge games is one of the best in the game(spotdodge into dsmash is one of the fastest punishment moves in the game), an uptilt which kills at 110%, and one of the top 5 most powerful spikes in the game. You don't even need the lightning kicks but i'm able to pull off the bair lightning kick 40% of the time(fairs a lot harder to hit with). Zelda is not even close to a "slow, predictable target", and please don't call her fat
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
asplain mister
It's more of a mindgame move, when your using Dins most peoples first reaction is to either SH airdodge or roll. Since you land really close to them when you land most players think they can rush in and attack you on the lag after the dins. Hard to explain but this works a lot of the time, it's actually a pretty reliable combo.
I couldn't agree with you more.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
so just shorthop in and use the aerial momentum to get next to them, then upsmash/running upsmash with iasa frames?
Pretty much, if you've ever played Zelda, it's a pretty safe approach option and even if they roll away from you your probably not going to get punished. I'm not saying this is something you should be doing all the time, it's just that her approach was mentioned and I was just pointing out that her approach is not terrible.
Squidster
Smash Ace
Waaveee bouncceee it.
But yeah i think thats what he's saying ._.
But yeah i think thats what he's saying ._.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Do you honestly want me to explain why I dislike Zelda now? Really?Tristan, where is all this hate for Zelda coming from? It sounds like you think Zelda is a slow, stumbling character that can't combo and has hard times hitting people. Besides Sheik I play primarily Zelda. Her nair auto cancels, her hyphen smash is one of the most useful in the game, she eats sheild alive(fsmash,usmash), you can glide toss dins into a hyphen smash(unless they know it's coming), her dsmash has to be one of the fastest in the game, she has a tilt lock(dtilt), a reflector which pushes people in the direction she's facing(I can't stress how useful this is), farore's wind mind games, her airdodge and spotdodge games is one of the best in the game(spotdodge into dsmash is one of the fastest punishment moves in the game), an uptilt which kills at 110%, and one of the top 5 most powerful spikes in the game. You don't even need the lightning kicks but i'm able to pull off the bair lightning kick 40% of the time(fairs a lot harder to hit with). Zelda is not even close to a "slow, predictable target", and please don't call her fat
It's late, I'll just say I don't like how she can't approach, can't force approach, has a crappy reflector, slow raising speed, slow falling speed, have smashs that can be DI out of, poor air game, poor air speed, barely decent ground game, and is easily comboed.
When I wake up if I have time before work I'll write a nice little essay for ya with ^ as part of my thesis.
This jumped out at me before I even read anything else. Ok we won't get into it tonight but i'll be looking forward to your essay tomorrow though
It almost sounds like Zelda should never even land a single hit on anyone ever, and if she ever does then that player is a total moron because everything she does is totally worse and slower than Ganondorf.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
New Avatar Detected
All Ships Scramble
This Is Not A Drill
All Ships Scramble
This Is Not A Drill
i think i'm just going to IP ban the next person that uses the term "hyphen smash"
you should call it up smashing - because thats exactly what it is
TKD
Smash Lord
LOL I'm beating MK's with a mid tier. Weird how Sheik and Zelda's matchups are amazingly favorable, and she's in MID! Hahah, her matchups are better than every character below Snake, I think...while playing as both, of course.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Not exactly true but with all honestly, how many of your Zelda kill have you gotten because of your opponents ***********?
Even if we don't count invincibility kill the majority of those kills would most likely be avoided completely if your opponent realize what Zelda was capable of and didn't leave themselves open. I guess it's rude calling someone ******** for not knowing to even know but they should know they shouldn't leave themselves open.
When I fight Zeldas I get into the mindset I would with Ike's and Captain Falcons.
"Don't rush, wait for them to come to you, don't take any risk, and slowly **** them when their character makes a opening"
edit: I felt I should add that I don't think everyone don't know how to fight Zelda and that good players with range characters do extremely well against her.
Zelda is all about testing your ability to play patiently, much like the competitive Brawl game as a whole. The fact that changing into Zelda means a multitude of fresh KO moves is more than enough reason to do it whenever feasibly advantageous.
You're honestly grossly underrating how Zelda can defend herself. If there's one thing Zelda can't really deal with, it's massive (projectile) camping and Ragnell. Otherwise she's fine, and has some matchups that are actually good for her and not so great for Sheik like ROB, Jiggs, and Kirby. As an actual Zelda main I can certainly say that she's boring to play. To say she's ineffective though is just silly.
You're honestly grossly underrating how Zelda can defend herself. If there's one thing Zelda can't really deal with, it's massive (projectile) camping and Ragnell. Otherwise she's fine, and has some matchups that are actually good for her and not so great for Sheik like ROB, Jiggs, and Kirby. As an actual Zelda main I can certainly say that she's boring to play. To say she's ineffective though is just silly.
This right here makes zero sense.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Believe me when I say I know Zelda defensive game is top notch. I have little to no complaints about how good her defensive game is except maybe on din fire. If din fire had a lingering hit box or just explosions happened quicker then it could be more effectively used to force people to approach but that could easily become broken if wasn't manager correctly.
Anyways I agree with you about how using Zelda you have to be patient but when your down by a stock or your opponent has a percentage advantage it's unwise to not approach. More importantly though I find that Zelda isn't capable with her low speeds and agility to dodge range attack well enough so that she can remain defensive. Even with platforms against a good brick wall there's little she can do.
Sheik on the other hand can not only easily evade most attacks with relate ease but can even camp back thus starting a little trench war. If I don't want that then I could move in with my great speed and either force them to respond or begin some shield pressure.
Zelda though we got two options..maybe three
1. You wait here, playing zone until they come to you
2. You approach, zelda can't approach well in the air or even on the ground. Short hop forward into din fire is about her best approach but it's also very double edged since side stepping or shielding leave you valuable.
3. Teleport. Personally I like this one a lot and with it's ability to cancel at the edge does give it the potential of being very effective if mastered, which I've tried a bit to do but it's not really a reliable means of closing the distance between you especial aggressively since it can be shield grabbed. I've tried to use it when I predict a opening but with all seriously it's not that good.
Please enlighten me with more mean of approach. I'll love to hear them mainly in section 2. Got to go to work now.
Zelda... shouldn't really approach. I mean, with her short initial dash frames, I suppose you could shield-dash your way into a perfect-shield setup for dsmash or something, but most of the time I'm playing a push-and-pull game of either slowly getting closer or making them come to me.
I think I've heard of approaches with SH Din's and crossup nair too, but whatever.
Additionally, playing any sort of approach with Sheik in your described disadvantageous situation is not much more effective, if more effective at all. Your opponent knows he has the advantage, knows he's at a relatively high %, and thus knows that you have to approach. At high %s, Sheik has fewer juggle punishment options and zero true combos. Her throws cannot KO. You might be able to KO off of a fair near the edge of the stage or a strong nair/uair/bair provided you manage to actually land one, seeing as how none of those will auto-cancel if you time it for the strong hit (except nair/bair on a particularly tall character).
In the end, you're relegated to jumping through the same hoops and trying to find an opportunity for a good poke, so while Sheik is more adept at maneuvering around the stage and finding some opening, at least Zelda has a good chance of KOing in one successful exploitation of any single opening.
Oh yeah, and if you get them to the ledge at a high %, Zelda's ledge pressure game is ****ed scary.
I think I've heard of approaches with SH Din's and crossup nair too, but whatever.
Additionally, playing any sort of approach with Sheik in your described disadvantageous situation is not much more effective, if more effective at all. Your opponent knows he has the advantage, knows he's at a relatively high %, and thus knows that you have to approach. At high %s, Sheik has fewer juggle punishment options and zero true combos. Her throws cannot KO. You might be able to KO off of a fair near the edge of the stage or a strong nair/uair/bair provided you manage to actually land one, seeing as how none of those will auto-cancel if you time it for the strong hit (except nair/bair on a particularly tall character).
In the end, you're relegated to jumping through the same hoops and trying to find an opportunity for a good poke, so while Sheik is more adept at maneuvering around the stage and finding some opening, at least Zelda has a good chance of KOing in one successful exploitation of any single opening.
Oh yeah, and if you get them to the ledge at a high %, Zelda's ledge pressure game is ****ed scary.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm, i like to think of zelda as a defensive character too... but also a passive/aggressive approach character, kinda like how i play ic's. it'll just take the correct spacing.
honestly, i think this zelda is not as good as melee zelda at just standing in one spot and defending. that's because melee zelda's neutral jab could stop pretty much ANY ground approach.
however, obviously we all know that brawl zelda got an upgrade in knockback, but IMO her camping ability is not as good. din's fire is a bit overrated in its ability to control distance, and with characters like marth and diddy kong constantly finding ways to break through zelda's defense... i don't think an all out defensive style could work.
passive approaches are ones that do require running up and shielding, whether to set up a shield grab, shield counter, or to stop your dash for proper spacing. very often when i play zelda, i find my self approaching by running up, stopping my dash with shield, and using fsmash. IMO, despite how slow it is, it is a great approach if you do it with proper timing and spacing.
another approach i use with zelda is using RAR full hop bair, and either DIing past them to use another aerial, or DIing away with another bair (or din's fire if they roll away)
the "never approach" mindset can only be applied to characters who can manage perfect defenses. IMO, zelda cannot do it. she doesn't have any speedy 2-3 frame jab that can break her out of sticky situations. her best move for this is maybe nayru's love... maybe ROB or a defensive MK or snake can pull off total defense, but i don't think zelda can manage. she'll need approaches when the situation calls for it.
wow, i just made an all-out zelda post on the sheik boards. <3 how about we go to the zelda boards where we can all be schooled to greater heights
honestly, i think this zelda is not as good as melee zelda at just standing in one spot and defending. that's because melee zelda's neutral jab could stop pretty much ANY ground approach.
however, obviously we all know that brawl zelda got an upgrade in knockback, but IMO her camping ability is not as good. din's fire is a bit overrated in its ability to control distance, and with characters like marth and diddy kong constantly finding ways to break through zelda's defense... i don't think an all out defensive style could work.
passive approaches are ones that do require running up and shielding, whether to set up a shield grab, shield counter, or to stop your dash for proper spacing. very often when i play zelda, i find my self approaching by running up, stopping my dash with shield, and using fsmash. IMO, despite how slow it is, it is a great approach if you do it with proper timing and spacing.
another approach i use with zelda is using RAR full hop bair, and either DIing past them to use another aerial, or DIing away with another bair (or din's fire if they roll away)
the "never approach" mindset can only be applied to characters who can manage perfect defenses. IMO, zelda cannot do it. she doesn't have any speedy 2-3 frame jab that can break her out of sticky situations. her best move for this is maybe nayru's love... maybe ROB or a defensive MK or snake can pull off total defense, but i don't think zelda can manage. she'll need approaches when the situation calls for it.
wow, i just made an all-out zelda post on the sheik boards. <3 how about we go to the zelda boards where we can all be schooled to greater heights
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i would say so yes
zelda is dumb and thats that lol
i dont care if shes more effective - we dont play sheik mains because we want to play the best character in the game - we play her because shes freaking cool and fun - zelda is neither the best character nor is she extremely cool or fun - in between silliness.
i think i've said this basically before on swf somewhere but zelda is just silly filler XD
sheik has the tools ;P
i dont care if shes more effective - we dont play sheik mains because we want to play the best character in the game - we play her because shes freaking cool and fun - zelda is neither the best character nor is she extremely cool or fun - in between silliness.
i think i've said this basically before on swf somewhere but zelda is just silly filler XD
sheik has the tools ;P
demodemo
Smash Ace
sheik has the tools, but in a tournament setting nobody is going to care about how cool zelda is ;D
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I think Zelda is just barely lower than Sheik.
Some of us do think she's fun to play...
Some of us do think she's fun to play...
in that case nobody is going to care how cool sheik is and they will all use snake and metaknight.
Exia 00
Smash Champion
But metaknight is cool T.T.......
Sheik is cooler though. I actually just came back to maining sheik because i like her green costume and i can finally tilt lock properly xD
Sheik is cooler though. I actually just came back to maining sheik because i like her green costume and i can finally tilt lock properly xD
I can't play Snake or Meta Knight, to any effectiveness.
I'm only playing Sheik because she's one of like... five characters I can actually play in this game, and she happens to be one of the better ones.
Squidster
Smash Ace
I can play snake pretty well.... lol.... i don't like MK though
the only reason people cant play snake is that they are trying to hard lol you just fat around the stage and tilt and it ***** - the less you try the better!
Squidster
Smash Ace
I pretty much spam grenade -> shield and tilts ._.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
You don't **** around with my meta knight >.>'
No I'm kidding. When brawl first came out I give him a try (played like two rounds) and did enjoy playing him a bit but I was really a bigger threat to myself then was whoever I was fighting.
I wasn't too fond of his strengths or style and didn't think much about him until I saw everyone winning with him but by then my Zamus was already really good so I decide to stick with her..har har har.
Ah..Crap I'm going to have to write a essay now don't I? ..meh, I'll put that off.
No I'm kidding. When brawl first came out I give him a try (played like two rounds) and did enjoy playing him a bit but I was really a bigger threat to myself then was whoever I was fighting.
I wasn't too fond of his strengths or style and didn't think much about him until I saw everyone winning with him but by then my Zamus was already really good so I decide to stick with her..har har har.
Ah..Crap I'm going to have to write a essay now don't I? ..meh, I'll put that off.
Exia 00
Smash Champion
Am i the only one who normally calls MK akuma xD ?
Tristan_win
Not dead.
-.- I hate Meta knight and always loose to decent ones but he isn't broken..He's just really good, counters are character, and gets all the same befits as us on stages.
He's like super sheik but in bat form with a sword and very few combos.
but i like the sheik victory screens T-T
that's an old melee trick lol
CANT BELIEVE YOU LOST TO ZELDA EL OH EL
that's an old melee trick lol
CANT BELIEVE YOU LOST TO ZELDA EL OH EL