Official Metaknight Discussion

[adumbrodeus]

I finally understand.


The easiest way to get into the BBR is to prove that you love camping and timing people out.

I'll keep this in mind...

Lol man, lol.


Nah, that's just my attitude, the easy way in is being an amazing player and being incredibly intelligent, and a nice overall person.

 

[Kaffei]

Why would they care? If a character is deemed broken enough to be banned, it is banned. Simple. We really shouldnt care for people that like the character. Just play him in friendlies and pick another main/second for tournies or quit competitive brawl.

I know that, which was the whole purpose of the "but no one really cares"

 

[MarKO X]

You said that the winning player is better.
This means that the losing player is always worse.

Of course there are going to be cases where the Ganon player is better, therefore the winning player is not always the better player.

i know what i said, i know what I meant.
if the ganon player is better, how do you prove it?
if you're so sure that the ganon player is better, there must be a way to prove it, no?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

That's not what he meant and you know it.

Edit: @Spelt w/ the victories thing.

 

[1048576]

To realistically describe skill in brawl one would have to write a well organized essay about all the different aspects of the game.
this is the main reason i believe brawl is a better game than melee, but that's beside the point...

I know you prolly meant to slip this in innocuously, but I'm calling you out on it. How exactly would describing skill in melee be different, IYO?

 

[Nanaki]

I finally understand.


The easiest way to get into the BBR is to prove that you love camping and timing people out.

I'll keep this in mind...

Technically Plank's not in the BBR (though he is in the MBR).

It may just seem that way because really, people with that mindset are truly the people who 'play to win'.

 

[Sosuke]

if the ganon player is better, how do you prove it?
if you're so sure that the ganon player is better, there must be a way to prove it, no?

So you think it's not at all possible for someone to lose to a worse player?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol man, lol.


Nah, that's just my attitude, the easy way in is being an amazing player and being incredibly intelligent, and a nice overall person.

Crap that means I've got NO chance.

 

[Spelt]

I know you prolly meant to slip this in innocuously, but I'm calling you out on it. How exactly would describing skill in melee be different, IYO?

I'm not going to have a melee vs brawl argument on here.
if you want to debate with me about how gay MK is, then be my guest.



and i thought plank quit?

 

[theunabletable]

Wait does that mean if I can get good placings in Melee by just trying to time people out with Jiggs that I could get into the MBR?

Of course there are going to be cases where the Ganon player is better, therefore the winning player is not always the better player.

I'd say intelligence in-game contributes to how good you are.

And if you're going Ganon against ICs, I guarantee that you're an idiot.

 

[Kaffei]

Can you guys get back on MK topic

 

[adumbrodeus]

Crap that means I've got NO chance.

I said the EASY way, you got in the hard way, by being an awful player, with no intelligence to speak of, with a bad attitude.

Spoiler

I kid, I kid.

Speaking of which, I know you got in, I'm staring at the list of newbies, where's you purple name? Have you not applied for it yet?

 

[OfTheEarth]

Wait does that mean if I can get good placings in Melee by just trying to time people out with Jiggs that I could get into the MBR? I'd say intelligence in-game contributes to how good you are.

And if you're going Ganon against ICs, I guarantee that you're an idiot.

lol
funny


but yeah fellas let's keep the whole melee/brawl which ones beter thing out of this, i'm interested and i'm reading just about everyone of these posts
learning as much as i can
and i don't want that to be stopped by melee vs. brawl
please

 

[MarKO X]

So you think it's not at all possible for someone to lose to a worse player?

it'll happen every so often because humans are not perfect.

but if you are absolutely sure that the ganon player is better than the ICs player, how are you going to prove that? and why do you keep avoiding answering this? lol

 

[Sosuke]

but if you are absolutely sure that the ganon player is better than the ICs player, how are you going to prove that? and why do you keep avoiding answering this? lol

Because we are talking about a theoretical case and there is no way I can prove that a non-existent player is better then the other.

Wins do not make you better.
If I were to win every regional tournament, but then lose to someone who's attending their first tournament, am I better then them? No.
If I lose against an IC player with Ganondorf, am I automatically worse then them? No.

 

[Spelt]

I'm sure DLA, among other ganon mains, have gone ganon against ICs plenty of times.

 

[Kaffei]

Mk.....................

 

[MarKO X]

Because we are talking about a theoretical case and there is no way I can prove that a non-existent player is better then the other.

Wins do not make you better.
If I were to win every regional tournament, but then lose to someone who's attending their first tournament, am I better then them? No.
If I lose against an IC player with Ganondorf, am I automatically worse then them? No.

@ question #1: lol
@ question #2: how do you know your not worse than them?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I said the EASY way, you got in the hard way, by being an awful player, with no intelligence to speak of, with a bad attitude.

Spoiler

I kid, I kid.

Its true actually XD

Speaking of which, I know you got in, I'm staring at the list of newbies, where's you purple name? Have you not applied for it yet?

Um, I think they forgot to accept me. XD

 

[OfTheEarth]

@ question #1: lol
@ question #2: how do you know your not worse than them?

lol dude i feel like you're just continuing the argument
he has a valled point

the answer you want is almost impossible to answer

 

[Sosuke]

@ question #1: lol

What? You want it to be more realistic?
If I win two small tournaments and then lose to someone who hasn't one any, am I better?

@ question #2: how do you know your not worse than them?

If you seriously think that every person who loses impossible match ups is worse then the winner, I don't even know what to say.


Let's use your (incorrect) method for proving who the "better" player is.
Someone is known for winning tournaments with DK.
They lose to someone who usually does bad, BUT they use a character that hard-counters DK.
That player loses to his/her next two opponents.
The DK goes on to win the tournament.
Who is better?

 

[Kaffei]

I think you guys are arguing over a trivial thing and that we should get back on topic.....
plz

 

[Spelt]

player skill is relevant to meta knight...

 

[MarKO X]

What? You want it to be more realistic?
If I win two small tournaments and then lose to someone who hasn't one any, am I better?

lol

If you seriously think that every person who loses impossible match ups is worse then the winner, I don't even know what to say.

why are you trying to win impossible matchups?

Let's use your (incorrect) method for proving who the "better" player is.
Someone is known for winning tournaments with DK.
They lose to someone who usually does bad, BUT they use a character that hard-counters DK.
That player loses to his/her next two opponents.
The DK goes on to win the tournament.
Who is better?

The DK. He won the tournament (aka victory), right?

Like I said, victories are what makes a good player.
Admittedly, good players also learn from their losses. Maybe the DK should learn to CP a different character and WIN against their hard counters?

 

[Spelt]

lol

LOL

why are you trying to win impossible matchups?

LOL

The DK. He won the tournament (aka victory), right?

LOL

Like I said, victories are what makes a good player.
Admittedly, good players also learn from their losses. Maybe the DK should learn to CP a different character and WIN against their hard counters?

LOL


what awesome arguments i have, amirite?

 

[Kaffei]

Please please lets get back on topic

 

[OverLade]

This song is better than this whole debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWSNHwph7k

So **** yo couch....

 

[MarKO X]

LOLs s
what awesome arguments i have, amirite?

I have no idea what you're trying to imply.

 

[Exceladon City]

I smell a troll...

10

Spoiler

markos

 

[Black Mantis]

So is he banned or what?

 

[Kaffei]

So is he banned or what?

No .

 

[Spelt]

This song is better than this whole debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWSNHwph7k

So **** yo couch....

That song is sooooooooooooooooooooo old.

 

[MarKO X]

I smell a troll...

10

Spoiler

markos

lol jackpot.
edit: seriously though, do good players not win? do good players not learn from their losses? do good players not try impossible matchups?

 

[Sosuke]

Please please lets get back on topic

I don't think defining a better player is that much astray from the topic. =/

lol

If you can reply, do so. If not, don't.

If you're trying to go with the "Oh, I realized my mistake. Now let me act like an idiot and say I was joking the whole time" thing, just stop. That doesn't work.

why are you trying to win impossible matchups?

That has nothing to do with anything. My point stands.

The DK. He won the tournament (aka victory), right?

But he lost to another player. By your logic, he is worse then that player.
This goes against your saying that IC players who win against Ganon players are always better.

 

[OfTheEarth]

you know what song is better?
Alphaville- Forever Young
i've listened to it 73 times today
and it has to do with MK..
by..



...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Its true actually XD

Lol, I am so quoting this post every time we disagree on anything.

Um, I think they forgot to accept me. XD

Awesome!

 

[The Brigand]

I'm glad my idea got shot down so I won't be thinking about it anymore (unless I suddenly decide to start hosting tournaments of my own, in which case I'll probably do it anyways), but I wanted to address this:

lol

M2k vs gnes

Do some research.


Let me put it this way, anyone named AdumbroDeus, Overswarm, Plank, DMG, or a variety of others will gladly stall you for 8 minutes when given the chance, hell we'll stall you for 5 days if necessary. Please, don't make it necessary.

My point was that, when neither player is stalling, Brawl matches are almost always completed within reasonable amounts of time. So how, exactly, does linking to a video of M2K

1. Scoring a KO in the first 17 seconds of the match.
2. Proceeding to stall for the rest of the match.

Prove me wrong? Hell, if anything the fact that M2K scored that first KO so quickly is just evidence that I might be right.

 

[St. Viers]

@ph00tbag

re: claims of strawman. I simply took what I saw as your arguments. Because no one has concisely listed what they were, I was drawing the gist of them from my memory of the thread. That is *not* a strawman argument, even if one thinks they sound smarter by using that term. (sorry if that comes off as mean, it's just general "use the term correctly" rage.)[1]

Also, getting mad at someone for not adressing a post made after my last post is sorta silly, as I had infact addressed crashic's arguments up to that point... :/

@rvkevin: that would be the fault of the TO, not the rule. (not the subjectivity of planking, but on announcing the rules of the tourney/what LG rules and stalling they have.

@Arturito Burrito: You caught me out--my major point there though was that there is no data showing how banning MK would benefit the community (not the metagame, and not necessarily tourney attendance, but the community as a whole)

@crashic: in your example, nothing is making the snake grab the ledge. from what I've seen of ally's snake, he makes great effort to *not* grab the edge when recovering, because of how it limits him. However, I see your point. Also, of course a LGL would allow some planking. Just as the chaingrab limit allows someone to (unnecessarily) grab someone up to 300% w/ IC, and then kill. That's an extra 120% over what they need that they are in fact stalling by getting the opponent up to. It's just not excessive stalling, which would be defined by bringing over 300%. See the similarity? I know that LGL is more broad, but it serves a similar, and equally abusable purpose.

However, now that my debating for the sake of debating is over, I watched a ton of tourney grand finals, and saw for myself that MK can do a lot of stalling w/ very little grabbing of the edge. This leads me to think that the LGL, while preventing DMG's optimal planking, would do little to prevent the MK player from achieving the same goal as planking, which is to use up time w/o getting hit >_>

Also, given the MLG pickup of brawl, I think that coming to a real decision about this should happen...though the lastest pages seem to indicate that happening.

[1] Were I to strawman, I wouldn't be asking for people to state exactly what their arguments were, nor would I preface them with a "as best as I can tell, these are the arguments being presented, etc"

 

[Asdioh]

I think you guys are arguing over a trivial thing and that we should get back on topic.....
plz

plz

player skill is relevant to meta knight...

sure, but they're doing it wrong.

arguing over little things is so pointless...

"good" or "better" is almost entirely a matter of opinion

see: comments on any youtube smash video with people talking about who they think the better player is (particularly in important matches near the end of big tourneys)

I'm not trying to get into this argument, let's just not talk about it :|

 

[MarKO X]

I don't think defining a better player is that much astray from the topic. =/


If you can reply, do so. If not, don't.

If you're trying to go with the "Oh, I realized my mistake. Now let me act like an idiot and say I was joking the whole time" thing, just stop. That doesn't work.

Actually, I started trolling you when you decided to not answer my question.

That has nothing to do with anything. My point stands.

Actually, that has lot to do with a lot. In order to win, you have to be smart. You can figure out the rest.

But he lost to another player. By your logic, he is worse then that player.
This goes against your saying that IC players who win against Ganon players are always better.

Or is that how you prove the Ganon player is better than the IC player?

please note that I said "victories" make a good player, not "victory." (although I did use the singular version of the word in a post by accident.) A single victory doesn't make a good player. A consistent set of victories against other good players do.

I still stand by what I say because you haven't proven otherwise. What defines a good player? Victories. Victories are obtained by being smarter, more skilled, and overall better than your opponent. Good players aren't defined by their losses, although they can learn from them.

you got double trolled. I wasn't trolling, but I was, but I wasn't. So if I was only trolling once, how was I double trolling, if trolling at all?