Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

^that, I don't mean at all that anyone is just naturally amazing. you have to work to unlock your potential. but not everyone is given the same set of tools to work with.

edit: ninja'd! this was at colaya

 

[•Col•]

Such thinking is the only thing stopping you from breaking that barrier...

What are you talking about? Maybe I should have mentioned, you can't really be certain your own or anyone else's potential.

For all you or I know, I could have GODLY potential to be a master at this game, but simply don't practice enough. :/ I don't know if I have the potential to be a top player, but I'm still going to try to work hard for it.

 

[JOE!]

why does MK keep being brought up for ban? It's the big, blue fat-*** from dreamland who messes everything up

(note: Mk doesnt make characters and even stages unviable just from him having a dthrow)

 

[Eddie G]

Such thinking is the only thing stopping you from breaking that barrier...

Such naivety and blind optimism. It's good to think realistically as well.

 

[CRASHiC]

(note: Mk doesnt make characters and even stages unviable just from him having a dthrow)

Note: DK sucks anyway. Ally carries a DDD counter now, why don't DKs?
Note: all of those stages would be banned anyway by other chain grabs, lazer locks, jab locks, quack locks, grab releases, etc.

 

[Overswarm]

Sheesh.. Had a lot of reading to do the past 20 pages.

My only response is: Why can't other people be like ADHD/DEHF/Ally? You act like they were born differently. You say they're "special" yes they're special as in a very good talent for beating top MK's consistently. Anyone has that potential, it is only obvious the people putting in the most time are producing the best results. You want to do better? Play more. Can't play more? That's unfortunate. No one is going to cater to the non-dedicated.

Or they could pick up Metaknight and make other people work that hard to beat them.

increase character viability unless Metaknight also gets a huge boost by it,

Since his initial dash is so amazing, he's actually one of the best users of the new AT. His dash dance is ridiculously awesome and trippy; it's like he's spazzing out all the time. Marths is smooooooooth, but MK has his wings popping up and down all the time.

Lemme just say this: Being able to run forward and d-smash is ridiculously fast and suprising, but once people get used to it it couldn't be TOO hard to punish. F-smash though, that'll be difficult.

 

[OverLade]

Sheesh.. Had a lot of reading to do the past 20 pages.

My only response is: Why can't other people be like ADHD/DEHF/Ally? You act like they were born differently. You say they're "special" yes they're special as in a very good talent for beating top MK's consistently. Anyone has that potential, it is only obvious the people putting in the most time are producing the best results. You want to do better? Play more. Can't play more? That's unfortunate. No one is going to cater to the non-dedicated.

Smarts is natural talent. No amount of training will make your reactions faster than someone with the same amount of natural reaction speed.

I used to want to believe the same thing you do, until I actually had the opportunity to play people better than me (M2K/Ally). When you play someone smarter than you, you can tell because you feel like they're reacting and reading faster, it's the simple. Experience increases reaction speed, but it won't change your overall ability to recognize previous situations and the gap with someone better than you will always be there...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Anyone can be as good at Street Fighter as Daigo Umehara if they work really, really hard!

Someone spill the beans on this new AT, plz.

 

[RDK]

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

Note that I'm not even arguing pro / anti-ban right now. People are just making stupid mistakes on both sides of the spectrum.

It's a good reason, but there are other reasons as well as to why ban a character.


*Bannable if he is a very powerful (boss) character, AKA "can be played with little to no thought", or has a very unbalanced damage:speed:effectiveness ratio on his attacks.

No. Ease of use has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not something should be banned.

How do you even define that? What does "little or no thought" mean? Can that be measured?

*Bannable if he has a tactic that can be done easily and consistently, and works on a vast majority of characters (maybe 60%? This depends on people though, and requires it to actually be abusable and easy to start... If ICs had fast tether grabs, they would probably be banned immediately, or their infinites would be banned, depends on Surgical vs Universal).

So I guess all A-moves should be banned then, right? They fit your criteria.

They can be done easily and consistently, and, for all intents and purposes, they work on all characters.

*Bannable if he has (a) move(s) that can send characters off-stage, stop time, recover large amounts of damage, or other out-of-the-ordinary (alien) traits. The move(s) is/are part of the character, so it will be very hard to stop during a match which has a chance of happening, as opposed to before the match begins which will stop it from happening 100% of the time.

Moves that can "send characters off the stage"? So what falls under this? Like every move, ever?

*Bannable if he has no even/disadvantaged matchups, since people will flock to him due to being the best choice for winning tourneys.

First of all ,there's no such thing as a character with no even matchups.

Second of all, none of those things necessarily make the character broken.

I'm pretty sure I could add another one, but can't name one off the top of my head.

Thanks god, because those last few were awful.

This is why I continuously call for a solid, rigid criteria for banning characters.

 

[Kewkky]

I didn't know people were unaware that there was a reason behind people not being good with lots of practice, and people being great with little to no practice... :/

I know a couple of people IRL who are frustrated because they just can't get better, no matter what we try to do to help them out. I think he's the most enthusiastic Brawler in PR, he keeps wanting to make smashfests and go to every single tourney and play infinite friendlies and do anything that ends up with him gaining experience... To some of us it's easy to do better, so during the small time he's outclassing us after a lot of experience gain, we adjust a little bit and start coming out on top all the time, pretty much nulling his gained experience and all of that 'training' he did to try and beat us more consistently.

I don't think "people can get just as good if they try hard enough". I find that to be an insult, you're saying no one is trying hard enough, even the people who practically have no lives. Saying "people should stop being lazy" is an even bigger insult, because there are some players who really try and get better. Saying "they should learn the MUs better" is taking away from everything they've been doing from the day the game started, which is playing against different characters to do good against each of them individually.


So yeah, some people have it and some don't. I don't mean Brawl skill, I mean what is needed to give shape to your Brawl skill: reaction speed, finger dexterity, hand-eye coordination, quick thought processing... All of that.

No. Ease of use has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not something should be banned.

How do you even define that? What does "little or no thought" mean? Can that be measured?

You misunderstood. Obviously such "easy" characters aren't banworthy, but "little to no thought" means you can spam any move, and your damage output:speed:effectiveness ratio will win things for you... It's one thing saying "you can win with tornado only", it's another to say "you can win with this attack that takes up half the stage, does 30%, is unavoidable and unblockable, and starts on frame 1/ends in frame 2".

See? That's what I mean with "little to no thought", "too easy to win with", blah blah blah. Not that hard to figure out.

So I guess all A-moves should be banned then, right? They fit your criteria.

They can be done easily and consistently, and, for all intents and purposes, they work on all characters.

So you're telling me that doing an A move is exactly the same as ICs with a fast tether grab, right? You're telling me A moves is exactly the same as infinites from other characters in different games that are too easy to set-up, easier than IDC and EDC which can be used to teleport far behind your opponent to stall time further, easier than Peach Bombing stage walls which would end up SDing some characters if they tried jumping after Peach in certain stages while she could always come back, easier than anything from a specific character that worked universally nd revolved around making all the other characters unable to win and only took the player learning the move in order to start winning tourneys?

Moves that can "send characters off the stage"? So what falls under this? Like every move, ever?

You're being too simple-minded and just thinking extremely narrow here, it's very disappointing. If you give some effort into actually thinking, you can imagine "teleporting attacks" that can take a character from the center of the stage, and put them below the stage at any %. Or attacks that allow the player to control the opponent and position them like dragging an icon with your mouse would allow you to. I dunno, try and use your "imagination" and stop trying to turn debates into angry flame-fests... Because you're always succeeding here.

First of all ,there's no such thing as a character with no even matchups.

Second of all, none of those things necessarily make the character broken.

Shao Khan from Mortal kombat, Akuma from SF2, Ivan Ooze from Power Rangers, Jin from Tekken 4. That's 4 people already! Oh man, I must be horribly wrong.

Thanks god, because those last few were awful.

I agree, your last points were beyond horrid.

This is why I continuously call for a solid, rigid criteria for banning characters.

Did I say they were the basis for a ban criteria? I SAID that "characters shouldn't be outright banned unless" then brought up a couple of points... Which should be obvious to people with 2 brain cells to rub together that don't just randomly attack due to their uncontrollable tunnel-vision when needing to demean someone becomes too much for them to bear.

 

[Raziek]

I think you're being a bit too nit-picky and literal on that count RDK.

First statement, moreso is talking about someone like Akuma.

Second one, you're just being ridiculous. Obviously "tactic" is a loose definition, but anyone with a brain can see it was referring to things in the realm of chaingrabs, planking, stalling, infinites, etc.

Third is a little hazy, I believe by "off-stage" this would refer to cases in which a character is sent out of the boundary of a stage where they cannot be hit, but also cannot die. I would imagine this is more applicable to somehow ending up outside the walls in a 2D fighter, not so much Brawl.

Fourth one, if you exclude the ditto (which makes sense since this is the whole problem, everyone flocking to MK) this IS possible. In MK's case, he does in fact have SOME match-ups that could be considered even or near-even, so this is not as big an issue.

Finally, yes, depending on the degree to which these criteria are applied, this can infact result in a broken character. See: SFII (I think) Akuma.

This kind of relentless nit-picking doesn't really serve you well, you more or less did nothing but pull Strawmen.

 

[RDK]

I think you're being a bit too nit-picky and literal on that count RDK.

First statement, moreso is talking about someone like Akuma.

Akuma is not comparable to MK in any way, shape, or form.

Also, just being a "boss-character" is not in itself a reason for a ban.

Second one, you're just being ridiculous. Obviously "tactic" is a loose definition, but anyone with a brain can see it was referring to things in the realm of chaingrabs, planking, stalling, infinites, etc.

Besides the IDC, which I would probably call a glitch exploit than an actual infinite, none of those things are banned in Brawl.

Finally, yes, depending on the degree to which these criteria are applied, this can infact result in a broken character. See: SFII (I think) Akuma.

Again, MK is not even close to being similar to Akuma. Do you even know why Akuma was banned?

People need to stop pretending they have SF knowledge when it's painfully obvious they don't.

This kind of relentless nit-picking doesn't really serve you well, you more or less did nothing but pull Strawmen.

I never straw-manned him. Go back and read his post; it was ridiculous.

You actually believe this is specific and rigorous enough to become the criteria:

Bannable if he has a tactic that can be done easily and consistently, and works on a vast majority of characters

 

[iRJi]

nvm. 4get it

 

[Overswarm]

Again, MK is not even close to being similar to Akuma. Do you even know why Akuma was banned?

People need to stop pretending they have SF knowledge when it's painfully obvious they don't.

Akuma was banned because "Sirlin said so" in the most recent iteration. He had no tournament results to back it up; Akumas tournament placements didn't come close to rivaling MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well what they want is an SBR supported ban which isn't quite the same thing.

True.

Luigi is not viable even with D3 gone. He has other bad matchups which I believe include MK and Marth.

You know I'm really starting to hate people throwing around the word "viable" that is extremely subjective.

I'm just going to quote Dogy on this,

So next topic, the tierlist.

*slams head against desk* Now, I could tell you a story about me, the smash community, and this tierlist. It's a sad story that, if avoided, could have me sitting with the likes of M2K, but it's largely irrelevant to the point.

My gripe about it has always been that the way the tierlist is done around here doesn't tell me who's better than who, it tells me who's more likely to win a tourney. On the surface, that's a completely valid purpose. No matter what I think or believe, I can't argue with that, nobody can. The flaw with that is that this game isn't always played in tourney. The bigger flaw (which is what you get with a tierlist based off of matchups) is that it doesn't tell me which character is literally better than the other one.

Going all the way back to Mario > Doc. Look at that tierlist, and look at past tierlists for... hell, as long as I can remember i guess. I think it's always said Doc > Mario. Like we've said though, Mario is > Doc. But because HMW, Shroomed, Boss, 18s, OTG, Pine, DJN and I Exist, and because $mac, Bob$, Cyphus, Desh, Captain Jack, S-royal existed, Doc is "a better character." Yeah Doc's going to finish better if there are more doc's and they're better players. Doesn't mean the CHARACTER is good.

Every matchup chart attempt has failed? There's an obvious reason for that; nobody really plays all the characters. If anybody actually PLAYS said character, they're usually not specifically amazing with them (save a few specifics.)

So imagine this, if you've never seen a good m2, and nobody plays m2 (taj plays marth, run with that for now), would you really let me convince you that M2 stands any sort of a chance vs Sheik? No. That's because whenever you DO see that one random m2 player, he gets annihilated by scrubmaster557. I myself watch Iori go to tourneys, MM EVERY SHEIK in the building, and win most if not all of his matches.

You can't convince me the matchup is something like 2-8. But how does the community work? Sheik is high tier, m2 is bottom. I see sheiks doing well, I forgot what m2's down+b down. Therefore, Sheik must destroy m2.

___

With the way the tierlist is, it's apparently "impossible" for a character below another on the tierlist to have a good matchup.

Prime example: Doc vs Jiggs. People are hauling off and saying Doc/Jiggs is 4-6 (or worse) in Jiggs favor. Except for a select few people, nobody's SEEN the **** matchup, aside from Chillfever99 vs Mango, and of course Mango's going to DESTROY the guy, he doens't have a clue how to play the matchup. You ASK mango, or hbox, or honest jiggs who's played a competent doc, and they'll tell you "The matchup is hard." Now, if jiggs players who are on top of the world are saying Doc is hard for their character, why do people still think Jiggs not only beats, but destroys Doc?

Because Jiggs is higher tier, therefore all matchups must be in her favor. "We're not going to TRY it, we'll just pencil it in and deal with it later." Ignore the people who've actually play the matchup, Doc's aren't a hot commodity.

__

I've gotten used to it, and I accept the fact that that's how the community works, but it's annoying when a guy new guy comes up to me and is like "Hey Dogy, I want to play Link, what do you think about that?", I say "Well, it's not going to be as easy as some characters, you might need a secondary, but it's doable.", and then some random guy (be it a "credible" person or not) comes by and spews "Link? Why play him? He's low tier, low tiers can't do anything, you need to play Marth." (True example)

Every matchup above link isn't abysmal. Sure he's got disadvantages, and sure he's got horrid matchups, but most of them are do-able. It's work, but it's doable. That's all some people want. Play a character they like, go to tourneys, and have a good time.

But people come talking about tourney viable. And yes, that's a concept that doesn't originate in smash. But there's all sorts of twists and turns around here when the words "tourney viable" come up.

Somebody says not tourney viable in smash, and it's like "Well, this character can't even beat the guy above him. You'll never beat anybody, inspite of how good or smart you are. Character has too many unworkable flaws. You'll never win ANYTHING." No consideration to the level of the player or level of play they're exposed to.

It ties into the tierlist and balance of the game (Is melee balanced or unbalanced? depends on who you ask), but the words "tourney viable" turn a lot of potential players away.

_

Now, take another community, MvC2 for example (Broke vs Capcom). Admittedly horribly unbalanced game (everybody knows that), with a small pool of playable characters. Like, 75% of the cast is "Not Tourney Viable". But say you want to play Megaman for whatever reason. Guess what you just landed? A bad matchup for Magneto, a HORRIBLE matchup. Now sure, you've got an unviable point character, but say you just want to go jank on some Magnetos, and you'll switch up for other teams? Well there you go, mission accomplished.

SC4, I main Talim (and cassandra). Talim is considered the second worst character in the game, and outside of God's Disciple known an Kira, there's absolutely no way anybody can win with her and absolutly no reason anybody should play with her. Guess what? She's got a 50/50 with Hilde, "Miss Broke." 2nd worst character in the game with a 5/5 vs 2nd best. If Talim is my Hilde slayer, then that's all I need.

See where I'm getting with that? People don't think like that around here.

If somebody wants Y.Link to destroy Peach, that's not possible. Y.Link's low tier, Peach is high. Does not compute. Nevermind what those 2 (or the ones who've played it) say about the matchup.

__

See where tourney viable goes? It's not a written law or anything, but when other communities talk about tourney viable, they tend to mean characters that just can't work on their own. They've done enough research to know if and what utility the character has, but it usually means the character can't function on their on.

In smash, a non tourney viable character can't do anything. It's by God's will if they ever squeak a win out. No way that matchup is closer than 7-3. Don't even think about mentioning that character in MBR.

*****

-taps fingers on desk-
I think I'ma stop here for now.

Like I said, I could go on for ages about it, but I'll save it for another time.

Again, I'm not mad by any stretch of the imagination. Doesn't bother me at all. I just don't like the way people think about alot of things around here.

If for nothing else, it's closing a lot of doors on the community.

Not too many people are stepping back and looking at the big picture, they're just looking at "Hey, Pound4 has 300+ participants, biggest smash tourney ever." You ever think where those people came from? It's not exactly NEW people like everybody thinks. I mean, year there are SOME, but alot of people came out of retirement, and then alot of players flew in.

*shrug* In the end, it's really just a half full/ half empty kind of thing.

I know it's relating to Melee, but still it's a very valid point.

Show data and show a correlation between number of infinitable characters and D3 mains plz

Susa did at one point, but he left. :/

I'd have to do research on places, *Runs to tournament results*

Don't Olimar, Pit, Peach, ROB, ZSS, Marth, Lucario, Kirby, Toon Link, and Pikachu become more viable with MK gone?
Fixed. :3

Fixed. :3

I bolded the ones I know only have a 4:6 with MK.

OS gathered data, then interpreted it in his own way. Data has no real interpretation other than the one the researcher gives it. The data OS collected could be viewed as MK being too dominant, or MK being averagely dominant, it all depends on what the person wants to see when he sees the data.

This is true.

You could start out your own research if you truly believe you're right, and that the reason why the majority of people leave the game isn't because of MK. I'm very confident that the majority DID leave because of MK and how hard it is to beat him at their levels of play, and I'm basing my opinion around the reason people dropped Brawl, which I re-state am very confident in.

Not really a "guess with no actual basis" AKA speculation. I base MY opinion on Brawl's community in PR. When Brawl came out, we ACTUALLY had 60+ people regularly in our tourneys... REGULARLY! Now we're pushing for 20-30, and the vast majority have admitted that they quit because MK was "too cheap" and "too easy to win with"... So, my region's players gave me an answer, and I based my point of view from that. We're all meat-and-bones and have brains, no one is more than the other, so I can safely assume that other regions have suffered the same fate as we have.

Which is good, for my area I'm noticing a trend where people are dropping Brawl for Melee, It's more so the Melee community is bigger in WI than in Brawl one, or the Brawl one doesn't get organized. WI Brawl has to go to IL to get to a tournament.

For attendance, eh, my area had attendance improve rather than go down over the past few months. It might be the hype we are getting or the bigger cash turnouts, but dunno.

If it's not a forced test, people like MK mainers can just ignore it and we won't get accurate results. What good is MK-Banned tourneys, if the previous MK mains AND anti-bans don't show where their skills will take them WITHOUT MK to modify their tourney placings? It's a very important piece of the data we want to gather that we can't ignore... A forced test forces them to react however they WOULD react if MK would be banned, be it change mains or quit altogether (which would fall under "not participate until the temp ban lifts")... That's the data we all want!

The thing is, people are still going to go to MK banned tournaments if you make the intensive to go enough for them not to ignore it. If ADHD can go to both and make more money that way, then he will go to both. The MK mains, most notable one being M2K, aren't going to ignore something like this if the money turnout is large enough.

While some won't go, we still have data from the ones who did go.

Some MK mains are just going to either try and wait out the temp ban or just quit altogether, there is nothing we can really do about that.

Prize money they won't win as easily as before without MK. Why participate in tourneys when they have other MK-Allowed tourneys around them where they can keep using MK? That skews the data we want to gather... What we want is to get a look at the metagame, how it would look when MK is gone. People NOT going to those tourneys won't give us the data we want, thus make it so that the temp ban was a fruitless approach to concluding the MK situation once and for all.

*tries to persuade*

They can't ignore it if the prize money is large enough. If pound 5 had MK banned people would still go because 150+ worth of money would still be there.

People can choose to not go even if we don't give them the option to go to MK allowed.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Ally carries a DDD counter now, why don't DKs?

I don't think DK sucks, but I agree you should have a counter and it shouldn't be such a big deal for people to accept that.

Too many people think that it's absurd for them to have to use a secondary character for some matchups... well that's the only one that you have to with DK, so that seems very reasonable to me. Most characters have to be swapped out for secondaries in more than 1 match up, so people like DK or Peach have it better than most... yet their mains usually complain far more, despite having only one true bad match up.

It's very silly, really.

 

[RDK]

Akuma was banned because "Sirlin said so" in the most recent iteration. He had no tournament results to back it up; Akumas tournament placements didn't come close to rivaling MK.

I think this is moreso due to SRK wanting to pre-emptively ban him so what happened with previous Akuma iterations don't happen in the future.

Are you saying you don't think he should be banned this go around?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Akuma was banned because "Sirlin said so" in the most recent iteration. He had no tournament results to back it up; Akumas tournament placements didn't come close to rivaling MK.

He was banned in original SF2 because he was a cheat code character, not an unlockable. He was totally broken and intended to be so--far worse than any "S-Tier" in any game. In HD Remix, he was an attempted re-balancing of a character that was originally a cheat code character. They didn't fix him enough.

You don't need tournament results to ban people from playing as a Cheat Code character; he's not a normal character, he's a cheat.


HD Remix isn't a totally new game compared to SF2, it's just been tweaked. With Akuma, the mold that they started with was a broken cheat character; it's not hard to see that even though they made some changes to him, he is still a broken cheat character, albeit a bit less broken.

 

[Jem.]

I assure you when you played vs M2K/Ally, they were better than you. There is no doubting that. But unless you TRULY believe you are better than them, you won't be them. You don't accidently stumble into success in any kind of competitive environment. Mew2King KNOWS he's better than every player, and goes in with a big ego. He doesn't speak it, but he knows he has no reason to lose to anyone, even if the person just jv-4 stocked ally 3 games straight. He doesn't care whats happened previously in the tournament, he knows he's better.

I guess I'll stop talking about it since all of you are just negative nellies .. just remember confidence is key no matter what. you can do it.

 

[Raziek]

Akuma is not comparable to MK in any way, shape, or form.

Also, just being a "boss-character" is not in itself a reason for a ban.

When this "boss character" is head and shoulders better than every other character in the game, yeah it is. And I'd like you to tell me where I said Mk was comparable to Akuma. I'm not saying I believe this Criteria applies to Meta Knight. I was attempting to clarify his criteria for a "bannable" character, as he himself did as well.

Besides the IDC, which I would probably call a glitch exploit than an actual infinite, none of those things are banned in Brawl.

Once again, I did not say they were, however some of them probably should be. I was, once again, clarifying something you deliberately interpreted in a way he CLEARLY DID NOT MEAN.

Again, MK is not even close to being similar to Akuma. Do you even know why Akuma was banned?

People need to stop pretending they have SF knowledge when it's painfully obvious they don't.

See first part of reply.

I never straw-manned him. Go back and read his post; it was ridiculous.

You actually believe this is specific and rigorous enough to become the criteria:

Please stop putting words in my mouth. All I did was attempt to clarify some of what he said, because you clearly interpreted it differently than he intended.

 

[Omni]

Akuma was banned because "Sirlin said so" in the most recent iteration. He had no tournament results to back it up; Akumas tournament placements didn't come close to rivaling MK.

Akuma was banned because his character did not fit in the game. His air fireballs could not be retaliated due its angle and size in comparison to the rest of the game. He had the fastest dizzy recovery while also being able to dizzy people WICKEDLY fast.

All that was necessary to win with Akuma was to do jump back red fireballs in the corner. Within the game's natural game mechanics and limits it was physically impossible to get in. The stun on the red fireballs allows Akuma to throw another and it's large enough that it can't simply be jumped over.

I think one of pro-ban's weakness is their heavy concentration on tournament results. Putting results on the backburner for the moment, do you guys believe that Metaknight should be banned on the basis that his abilities are broken? Comparing him with the rest of the cast does this make him broken and unfit as opposed to being just the best character in the game and still fitting?

 

[Raziek]

I assure you when you played vs M2K/Ally, they were better than you. There is no doubting that. But unless you TRULY believe you are better than them, you won't be them. You don't accidently stumble into success in any kind of competitive environment. Mew2King KNOWS he's better than every player, and goes in with a big ego. He doesn't speak it, but he knows he has no reason to lose to anyone, even if the person just jv-4 stocked ally 3 games straight. He doesn't care whats happened previously in the tournament, he knows he's better.

I guess I'll stop talking about it since all of you are just negative nellies .. just remember confidence is key no matter what. you can do it.

I don't understand where people come from with this "You can do anything if you try hard enough" business.

It makes no difference how hard someone trains, if you are not born with the physical potential of Usain Bolt, you will NEVER RUN AS FAST AS HIM, EVER.

The same thing applies to Video games. No amount of training can improve your visual reaction time beyond a point. Some people's brains are simply better at quickly processing and interpreting information, nothing can change this.

 

[OverLade]

I assure you when you played vs M2K/Ally, they were better than you. There is no doubting that. But unless you TRULY believe you are better than them, you won't be them. You don't accidently stumble into success in any kind of competitive environment. Mew2King KNOWS he's better than every player, and goes in with a big ego. He doesn't speak it, but he knows he has no reason to lose to anyone, even if the person just jv-4 stocked ally 3 games straight. He doesn't care whats happened previously in the tournament, he knows he's better.

I guess I'll stop talking about it since all of you are just negative nellies .. just remember confidence is key no matter what. you can do it.

I took games off of both of them. The gap between us isn't even huge compared to the gap between most players. I wasn't upset because I thought "gee, there's no chance of me beating either of these guys in tournament ever", I was upset because I was like "Gee, I'm not the pinnacle of brawl" [/ego].

You don't have to truly believe you're better than anyone, you just have to have confidence in yourself and go into every match planning to do your best. M2K def DOESN'T go in with a big ego, he definitely expects to beat everyone, but we all know he has ups and downs and sometimes plays badly due to lack of confidence.

And if someone JV 4 stocked Ally 3 times in a row M2K would probably be terrified. Anyone would. Brawl isn't a game of pure skill, that's why people on the highest level still have something to fear from people who are worse than them but not by that much. There's still a lot of matchup knowledge and camping involved, smarts determines roughly what tier of playing you're in but there's so much stuff you have to learn in this game that getting to the level of consistency of a top player takes alot of time anyway.

[/rant]

edit:
Raziek summed it up perfectly, arguement done.

 

[•Col•]

I assure you when you played vs M2K/Ally, they were better than you. There is no doubting that. But unless you TRULY believe you are better than them, you won't be them. You don't accidently stumble into success in any kind of competitive environment. Mew2King KNOWS he's better than every player, and goes in with a big ego. He doesn't speak it, but he knows he has no reason to lose to anyone, even if the person just jv-4 stocked ally 3 games straight. He doesn't care whats happened previously in the tournament, he knows he's better.

I guess I'll stop talking about it since all of you are just negative nellies .. just remember confidence is key no matter what. you can do it.

You sound like the main character of some anime or video game.

 

[Overswarm]

Akuma was banned because his character did not fit in the game. His air fireballs could not be retaliated due its angle and size in comparison to the rest of the game. He had the fastest dizzy recovery while also being able to dizzy people WICKEDLY fast.

All that was necessary to win with Akuma was to do jump back red fireballs in the corner. Within the game's natural game mechanics and limits it was physically impossible to get in. The stun on the red fireballs allows Akuma to throw another and it's large enough that it can't simply be jumped over.

I think one of pro-ban's weakness is their heavy concentration on tournament results. Putting results on the backburner for the moment, do you guys believe that Metaknight should be banned on the basis that his abilities are broken? Comparing him with the rest of the cast makes him broken and unfit as opposed to being just the best character in the game and still fitting?

You are incorrect, sir.

Akuma wasn't banned and it was debated much like it was now with MK and then Sirlin, breaking all his own rules, came down from the heavens and suggested he should be banned. Thus, he was banned at EVO and that pretty much set the precedent.

This is the equivalent of Sakurai telling someone that Metaknight should be banned.

 

[Kewkky]

Fine RDK, let's see...

Bannable if he has a tactic that can be done easily and consistently, and works on a vast majority of characters

"Bannable if he has a(n extremely powerful and abusable) tactic that can be done easily and consistently (by a select few characters, or even just 1), and works on a vast majority of(, if not all,) characters.

Does that make you feel better? or are you still laughing at nothing? The way I see it, you should laugh at your own stupidity in this case. -_-

 

[MetalMusicMan]

How do you refute my previous post, OS? Sirlin may have suggested it but that doesn't mean much if anything. The issue is because he was broken by design and they failed to fix him. He's not the same as MK in any way and cannot be compared to him.

He was banned in original SF2 because he was a cheat code character, not an unlockable. He was totally broken and intended to be so--far worse than any "S-Tier" in any game. In HD Remix, he was an attempted re-balancing of a character that was originally a cheat code character. They didn't fix him enough.

You don't need tournament results to ban people from playing as a Cheat Code character; he's not a normal character, he's a cheat.


HD Remix isn't a totally new game compared to SF2, it's just been tweaked. With Akuma, the mold that they started with was a broken cheat character; it's not hard to see that even though they made some changes to him, he is still a broken cheat character, albeit a bit less broken.

 

[Omni]

Sirlin is kinda' like you except he took the in-game approach as opposed to focusing on players, character usage, and tournament results. Oh, and he actually succeeded.

This Sirlin guy is srs business.

Also, the Akuma issue was not debated as much as the MK issue. Do you know what you're talking about Overswarm? Because I REALLY know what I'm talking about.

 

[Overswarm]

How do you refute my previous post, OS? Sirlin may have suggested it but that doesn't mean much if anything. The issue is because he was broken by design and they failed to fix him. He's not the same as MK in any way and cannot be compared to him.

I'm saying Akuma wasn't banned for any sort of bad impact on the tournament scene; he was just deemed "different" or "too good".

If that's the case, Metaknight has the best recovery in the game and can beat most of mid tier and below using tornado omg ban? =P



The street fighter community is a joke as far as game balancing is concerned. They've had their game created to be competitive for them and we've had to sculpt ours out of clay. The precedents set by Sirlin have been ignored the one time they had a chance to really use them, even. I'm not taking any precedents from a community that is dwarfed by our own.

 

[OverLade]

You sound like the main character of some anime or video game.

Believe in the heart of the cards and you'll win everytime.

How else would Yugi randomly pull an awesome magic card he had never previously used every time he was down to 100 lifepoints?

Or mabye you should trust in your friends like they do in Pokemon...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I'm saying Akuma wasn't banned for any sort of bad impact on the tournament scene; he was just deemed "different" or "too good".

If that's the case, Metaknight has the best recovery in the game and can beat most of mid tier and below using tornado omg ban? =P



The street fighter community is a joke as far as game balancing is concerned. They've had their game created to be competitive for them and we've had to sculpt ours out of clay. The precedents set by Sirlin have been ignored the one time they had a chance to really use them, even. I'm not taking any precedents from a community that is dwarfed by our own.

You are missing the vital point here:


Akuma didn't need statistics to be banned because he was a cheat code character. There was no logical reason for him to be legal to begin with.

Would you keep a code that enabled you to play as Master Hand in Smash legal? No, that would be ridiculous. This is what Akuma is. He is Master Hand.




He is inherently different than Metaknight and cannot be compared to in terms of "bannability" because of that inherent difference.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm saying Akuma wasn't banned for any sort of bad impact on the tournament scene; he was just deemed "different" or "too good".

If that's the case, Metaknight has the best recovery in the game and can beat most of mid tier and below using tornado omg ban? =P



The street fighter community is a joke as far as game balancing is concerned. They've had their game created to be competitive for them and we've had to sculpt ours out of clay. The precedents set by Sirlin have been ignored the one time they had a chance to really use them, even. I'm not taking any precedents from a community that is dwarfed by our own.

So we should listen to the sub-community of bad players, who for certain make up a larger percentage of the Brawl playerbase than the good, competitive ones?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Translation: I'll read dozens and dozens of posts by other people in this thread, even those that are merely responding to Overswarm's posts, but I shy away from Overswarm's posts since I can't respond to them with anything worthwhile, so I find my best strategy is to simply act like they should be ignored, so people from anti-ban will stop switching to pro-ban. I simply claim they are "too long" and have "too much information" and require too much of a time investment and then I simply post one-liners, quips, pictures and straw mans on a daily basis and hope people don't notice I main Metaknight.

Pwnt

What does the fact that one also uses Metaknight have anything to do with anything? Obviously if you have experience playing with MK, you're going to know the matchup a little bit better.

So then literally do what anti-ban has been saying and pick up Metaknight.

This I agree with. This is the MOST IMPORTANT THING pro-ban can do at this point: pick up MK, play as gay as you ****ing can, and try to win as much as you can. This is how we get MK banned: we, the people trying to prove "he's unhealthy for the metagame" make him unhealthy; we play more and more and more MK until it really is just MK dittos in grand finals. This will really hammer the point home. This is what we have to do!

Luigi vs MK is even more of a lopsided matchup than Luigi vs DDD. Yes, even with the infinite.

Heck you could ban BOTH DDD and MK and Luigi still wouldn't be viable. There's still Luigi vs Marth which universally agreed to be a hard counter. Then there's also Luigi vs G+W which is another horrible matchup.

If you're trying to win tournaments, Luigi is only useful if he has friends.

This is correct. Luigi vs. DDD actually isn't that terrible for luigi. It's certainly BAD, but it's not nearly as bad as Luigi vs. MK. Luigi is really floaty and has that ****ing crazy Nair. He can't do **** against tornado though.

Its funny how these global rules of banning characters in NORMAL fighting games are considered in brawl, despite the fact that brawl has HUGE effects with stage counterpicking. Assume another top tier in another game 60-40'd everyone or better. Over a best of 3 set of 2 equal skilled players, the advantaged character wont exactly always win, winning 2 out of 3 isnt guaranteed.

Do this to brawl, MK only has to win the first match (given his MU's vs everyone and dominance on nearly every stage, stage striking eliminating his only bad stage(s), this will happen more often than not) and he can now pull out any number of ridiculous stages to CP later in the set, turning a slight advantage into something brutal.

The difference may be slight overall but once again, what is banned in other fighting games should not be considered at all in brawl, its clearly very different. You dont see all FPS games banning certain weapons, they ban them on individual merits and the effect on tournaments... they couldnt care less what other games do.

This is important. Also, this is why we should ban RC; you not only can't really CP MK because he has no bad stages, you almost always have to lose your stage ban to make sure he doesn't get one of the most ******** stages known to man.

I think you're being a bit too nit-picky and literal on that count RDK.

<stuff>

This kind of relentless nit-picking doesn't really serve you well, you more or less did nothing but pull Strawmen.

This is how RDK always argues. He's aiming for this:

nvm. 4get it

That people don't bother arguing with him so he wins by default. Seriously... it's annoying.

 

[Kuraudo]

Believe in the heart of the cards and you'll win everytime.

How else would Yugi randomly pull an awesome magic card he had never previously used every time he was down to 100 lifepoints?

Or mabye you should trust in your friends like they do in Pokemon...

I one time was in a Yu-Gi-Oh! tournament set up with friends, and I was down to 50 Life Points. Because I had wasted most of them on the Wall of Revealing Light. All I had was the Red-Eyes Black Chick on the field, and about 20 cards left. I literally closed my eyes, thought about my friends and then had Dan Green's voice in my head.

"Believe...in the heart of the cards."

I got the Red-Eyes Black Dragon. Say hello to Red-Eyes Darkness Dragon and a rapetastic monster. Took his Life Points with all the dragons in my graveyard. ggz.

Pulling that **** off is so gay, but I swear to god. Sometimes it just works. And makes it fun. LOL

SO YEAH META KNIGHT. I swear. No more spam I'm sorry. lmao

 

[Omni]

I'm saying Akuma wasn't banned for any sort of bad impact on the tournament scene; he was just deemed "different" or "too good".

If that's the case, Metaknight has the best recovery in the game and can beat most of mid tier and below using tornado omg ban? =P

The street fighter community is a joke as far as game balancing is concerned. They've had their game created to be competitive for them and we've had to sculpt ours out of clay. The precedents set by Sirlin have been ignored the one time they had a chance to really use them, even. I'm not taking any precedents from a community that is dwarfed by our own.

No, it was actually understood by an extremely large amount of the community that Akuma was broken. Unlike Metaknight, the community was not split about Akuma not fitting in the game. It was generally understood by pros and casual players alike. Sometimes it doesn't require months and months of tournament results and data to distinguish if a character fits with the rest of the cast.

Metaknight has the best recovery and can beat a lot of characters with tornado. He has a lot more arsenal then that, but couple that with the fact that his weakness his is weight, weak aerial mobility, lack of projectiles, and lack of chaingrabs. Then add the fact that there are characters who possess traits such as killing at 0% from a grab, ridiculous projectiles, ridiculous weight, etc. and you suddenly realize that MK is not the only one playing a different game.

Smash was not that hard to make competitive. Remove items, add a timer, set a stock limit, and choose some neutral stages and you've got the competitive game we all know and love. The only hard part was coming to an agreement with all of these concepts WHICH wasn't that difficult since Smash's tournament viable settings resembled every other fighting game minus stage selection.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You are incorrect, sir.

Akuma wasn't banned and it was debated much like it was now with MK and then Sirlin, breaking all his own rules, came down from the heavens and suggested he should be banned. Thus, he was banned at EVO and that pretty much set the precedent.

This is the equivalent of Sakurai telling someone that Metaknight should be banned.

What you seem to be missing is Sirlin and the SRK community in general gives more credence to theorycraft then the smash community, so they weren't looking at tournament results, they were looking at match-ups.


Now, I don't know too much about HD remix, but my understanding is that in terms of sheer match-up dominance (at least as far as we know) he made MK look like a chump.

 

[Jem.]

Way to loophole out of it.

You can say "I want to be in the NFL" and try for one day and then whine when you don't make it in.

If you're an aspiring quarterback and go "I want to be as successful as Peyton Manning on day" and study film all day and better yourself, everyday, you very may well be on that path.

Stop trying to find the loophole out of it. Anyone can be a pro gamer if they want to and approach it the right way.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Smash was not that hard to make competitive. Remove items, add a timer, set a stock limit, and choose some neutral stages and you've got the competitive game we all know and love. The only hard part was coming to an agreement with all of these concepts WHICH wasn't that difficult since Smash's tournament viable settings resembled every other fighting game minus stage selection.

I totally agree-- I had this same argument with Samurai Panda in another thread. (here and here)

We didn't do anything special to "make our own game". People try to give themselves too much credit with "making their own game" out of Smash. This community did nothing of the sort, we picked a few basic rules and made them standard. Nothing more.


I'm also pretty sure that everyone who makes these statements, including OS, has no refute for the simple facts that I stated in my previous post. Everyone spouts all of this MK = Akuma nonsense and then never acknowledges the facts of the matter.

Step 1) Try to compare MK to Akuma

Step 2) Ignore the blatant and obvious differences between the two

Step 3) Point out Akuma was broken

Step 4) Point out that Akuma was banned

Step 5) Declare that MK should be banned because he's "no different than Akuma"

Step 6) Discredit the SF community because they "broke their own rules"

Step 7) Declare the Smash community as "superior because they made their own rules instead of breaking the few that they had"​

The above argument is so flawed, it isn't even funny. ...yet I see it get made over and over again.

I'm pretty sure that those who make it have little to no knowledge of the SF community or the games / characters in it; it would seem that the comparison was just a bandwagon of misinformation that everyone jumped on.

 

[Kuraudo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PFpOboFEwE

One of the two vids that Jem put.

LOOOOOOOL tooled.

 

[Omni]

Stop trying to find the loophole out of it. Anyone can be a pro gamer if they want to and approach it the right way.

I agree with what you have been saying all the way up to this point.

You have to be special to be a pro-gamer. It's not like reading a book where once you get to the end the book is finished and you've reached the finish line. It's more like a race; if you're not fast and can't keep up you will get left behind. Some people are naturally slow when it comes to video games unfortunately.

@MMM: Yep. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to argue things they don't know about. No to say they may not know the general jist of the situation, but the majority of the people simply repeat what they've heard from a person who was repeating what they heard rather then being involved and absorbed within the community.