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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
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Delvro
Smash Ace
KY is full of shoryukens
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I think we could all use some more Luigi in our life.
Luigi does have some matchups (Olimar, Diddy, Wario) where he does fairly well. Some ZSS mains also say they have a hard time with him. So he's not a bad pick for a secondary.
Oh and he hard counters Ivysaur.
Depends on your opinion. I think it is.
Delvro
Smash Ace
There's a little bit of Luigi in all of us.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Apparently in OMFG SF, no...
In Smash, we should work around issues our own distinct way and stop being conservative sticklers who are stuck on principles supplied elsewhere.
M@v
Subarashii!
Luigi is the Ken of Brawl.
Hes good with ladies(well, daisy at least)
B=hadoken
UpB=Shoryuken
DownB=Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku
Hes good with ladies(well, daisy at least)
B=hadoken
UpB=Shoryuken
DownB=Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
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I can second what he's saying. A lot of people HAVE stopped playing Brawl here, and tournaments have been getting smaller. Last tournament here only had 10 people in it. >_>
Of course.
I agree. Smash is a different game, amd we shouldn't be afraid to use our own methods to deal with our game.
I'm all for more viability, but I think the smash community should make sure it's a good enough reason to warrant a ban on MK. Of course, it becomes opinion there.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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Nope.
Nope Nope and Nope.
Why?
You can't Mash UpB to beat footsies with priority.
You can't UpB for a 3 Hit Combo OTG.
Every competitor at Apex isn't free.
Casual and Money matches don't belong to Weegee.
resource: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uZWArSOmCc
Thus: Luigi and Ken cannot be compared.
It's a good reason, but there are other reasons as well as to why ban a character.
*Bannable if he is a very powerful (boss) character, AKA "can be played with little to no thought", or has a very unbalanced damage:speed:effectiveness ratio on his attacks.
*Bannable if he has a tactic that can be done easily and consistently, and works on a vast majority of characters (maybe 60%? This depends on people though, and requires it to actually be abusable and easy to start... If ICs had fast tether grabs, they would probably be banned immediately, or their infinites would be banned, depends on Surgical vs Universal).
*Bannable if he has (a) move(s) that can send characters off-stage, stop time, recover large amounts of damage, or other out-of-the-ordinary (alien) traits. The move(s) is/are part of the character, so it will be very hard to stop during a match which has a chance of happening, as opposed to before the match begins which will stop it from happening 100% of the time.
*Bannable if he has no even/disadvantaged matchups, since people will flock to him due to being the best choice for winning tourneys.
I'm pretty sure I could add another one, but can't name one off the top of my head.
It increases, then decreases until it disappears. Depends on the game's appeal to the public too, and what it uses to appeal to it. If the game is very fast-paced, has a large skill-gap between newcomers and veteran pros, AND is very fun to play (I just described MvC2! It's old and still played), then the longevity increases. It's directly proportional to the enjoyment people get out of the game, that's pretty common... Brawl lacks several of these, so we need to create something to keep people from leaving due to the "same old scenario" where they do an uphill battle against an MK, only to encounter another tougher MK sometime after the set over and over again.
It's a quadratic equation (f(X) = -X^2, X = time spent playing the game with the metagame having minor changes overall while still keeping the feeling of the same Brawl we've been playing since the last major change), sort of like a parabola. It increases, only to start decreasing again after a peak has been reached... Seeing the tourney attendance info OS has provided for us before and then averaging out the peaking/plummeting it does so we have a smooth graph, we can see that tourney attendance increases, then decreases. It always happens, but there are very few scenarios where popular games (SF overall, Tekken overall, Guilty Gear, MvC, shooters, whatever competitive scene) have such a small lifespan, and when they DO have small lifespans, it's usually due to a/some game element(s) that deter the overall enjoyment of the game... Some games can be fixed, others can't. Brawl CAN be fixed, and its lifespan can expand.
Of course, Brawl's lifespan expanding is my opinion, there will be people who disagree, but I see it this way.
Browny
Smash Hater
Its funny how these global rules of banning characters in NORMAL fighting games are considered in brawl, despite the fact that brawl has HUGE effects with stage counterpicking. Assume another top tier in another game 60-40'd everyone or better. Over a best of 3 set of 2 equal skilled players, the advantaged character wont exactly always win, winning 2 out of 3 isnt guaranteed.
Do this to brawl, MK only has to win the first match (given his MU's vs everyone and dominance on nearly every stage, stage striking eliminating his only bad stage(s), this will happen more often than not) and he can now pull out any number of ridiculous stages to CP later in the set, turning a slight advantage into something brutal.
The difference may be slight overall but once again, what is banned in other fighting games should not be considered at all in brawl, its clearly very different. You dont see all FPS games banning certain weapons, they ban them on individual merits and the effect on tournaments... they couldnt care less what other games do.
Do this to brawl, MK only has to win the first match (given his MU's vs everyone and dominance on nearly every stage, stage striking eliminating his only bad stage(s), this will happen more often than not) and he can now pull out any number of ridiculous stages to CP later in the set, turning a slight advantage into something brutal.
The difference may be slight overall but once again, what is banned in other fighting games should not be considered at all in brawl, its clearly very different. You dont see all FPS games banning certain weapons, they ban them on individual merits and the effect on tournaments... they couldnt care less what other games do.
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this x100 + whatever else i can count too
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
I just wanna say that OS and Omni made my day.
You can't pay for entertainment that gud
You can't pay for entertainment that gud
If Luigi's Up B was a 3-hit combo he'd be banned.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Nope. If it had 3 hits in brawl, it can be SDI'd out of xP
_Keno_
Smash Lord
I'll recycle this:
Brawl also has other characteristics that other fighting games do not have. Recovery and Edgeguarding. Metaknight excels at both.
I assure you that Ike's Great Aether has far more than three hits.
Guilty Gear's scene is average-sized in PR... We got a couple of players who like the game a lot, and we almost had BlazBlue as another tourney-standard... Before we found out how crazy ******** V-13 was in the hands of a pro. Now, the new fad is Tatsunoko vs Capcom (we're already used to the japanese version :D).
OK, I went a li'l off-topic there... :D.
I'm sure they'll find someone incredibly broken in TvC soon enough...
Karas has an infinite on the entire cast, but it was surgically removed. He's still the best character according to what I remember (so I might be wrong), but at least the cheapest part of him can be taken away since it requires a button combination instead of singular button inputs... UNLIKE METAKNIGHT AND GAY STRATS!
I got the Wii US version so I guess they took Karas' infinite out before that was released? Every character seems broken in that game anyway so maybe it evens out.Karas has an infinite on the entire cast, but it was surgically removed. He's still the best character according to what I remember (so I might be wrong), but at least the cheapest part of him can be taken away since it requires a button combination instead of singular button inputs... UNLIKE METAKNIGHT AND GAY STRATS!
Does it make a difference how complicated the input is when considering whether it is banworthy?
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Karas is definitely not the best character anymore. He has a ridiculously low amount of health and mediocre damage output to go along with it.
why do people keep saying that ****y characters like peach and luigi are going to be viable with MK gone? you can make a very compelling argument to ban meta knight just based on his centralization, inability to be counterpicked, the fact that he can dodge stalling rules unlike other characters...there's no need to be exaggerating and saying silly stuff like that
*hides from dark pch's wall of text*
*hides from dark pch's wall of text*
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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Karas wasn't even the best character in the original TvC >_>
Ken the Eagle was, after the metagame matured.
Ken the Eagle was, after the metagame matured.
Nobody serious is saying that Luigi is going to be viable in an MK free MK. Peach though might be depending on how the metagame evolves. Peach is still underused enough that her matchups can change drastically but she may do well against several high tier characters most notably Wario and Diddy. I think she has the potential to be around ZSS' current level meaning the very border of viability.
Luigi also has some good matchups but so many bad ones that he'll be a decent secondary at best.
Jem.
Smash Master
Sheesh.. Had a lot of reading to do the past 20 pages.
My only response is: Why can't other people be like ADHD/DEHF/Ally? You act like they were born differently. You say they're "special" yes they're special as in a very good talent for beating top MK's consistently. Anyone has that potential, it is only obvious the people putting in the most time are producing the best results. You want to do better? Play more. Can't play more? That's unfortunate. No one is going to cater to the non-dedicated.
My only response is: Why can't other people be like ADHD/DEHF/Ally? You act like they were born differently. You say they're "special" yes they're special as in a very good talent for beating top MK's consistently. Anyone has that potential, it is only obvious the people putting in the most time are producing the best results. You want to do better? Play more. Can't play more? That's unfortunate. No one is going to cater to the non-dedicated.
this is incredibly naive. not everyone can be top players, people like M2K, ally, ADHD, DEHF etc. are gifted, not everyone has the natural talent to be an amazing player. working harder can only allow you to reach the upper limits of your own potential, it can't change what that potential is.
this doesn't mean that MK does or doesn't need to be banned or that you can't get better at the matchup, but no, putting in thousands of hours of work won't necessarily make you the next ADHD or ally
Jem.
Smash Master
Why not? With the exemption of Mew2King, nearly every Brawl pro started at the bottom. Everyone has gotten significantly better since Brawl's release to now. Pros in all sports have had their ups and downs.
It's when you believe you can't be the best that you don't get there. You can't get anywhere without that inside ego telling you how good you are and how good you can be.
All of us are human beings, we have the same body parts. Sure a lot of us represent different styles, but the styles, with the proper mindset/use/training, can be successful.
Treating Mew2King like he isn't a person isn't right. He's just really dang good at Brawl. He still likes friends/hanging out/same things everyone else does.
True, you can play for 2000 hours and not be as good as some players. "Just playing" isn't how you get good. If you aren't playing with a purpose, all you're doing is just that -- playing. You have to be looking for new things, new ways to better yourself.
We all have the same chance to be "pro". Some people just haven't realized it.
a lot of it is mental, some people are more attuned to how to play the game, have superior prediction skills, pattern recognition, have better reaction times etc. just practicing the game won't build on a lot of these skills, you either have them or you don't. experience helps, but if you react 50ms slower than most people, or if you're klutzy and constantly make wrong controller inputs, you're not going to be an amazing player, ever.
Jem.
Smash Master
The first time any of us played a smash game. we didn't know how to read players. Now nearly all of us do. Pattern recognition, super prediction skills, and better reaction time is all something that is very trainable and not limited to just having the perfect father and mother. My dad smoked pot a lot his life, and look at me, I have some amazing reaction time and traits you're theoretically assuming I shouldn't. I gained that all on my own.
You think Mew2King started amazing? Hello, he WAS playing melee and not winning those 3 years Ken was winning all the MLG's/Big tournaments. M2K was at nearly every one of those. ADHD wasn't always considered a top player in the nation.
I can even say this about me. i've made $4500 (i know its not a lot compared to most top players) from brawl. I didn't just start at the top, I got owned for awhile just like the next guy. I had that flame of competitiveness. WHICH IS ALSO ATTAINABLE. If you want it, you'll get it if you take every right step to it. trust me.
To keep this on topic: Any person with the right mindset and dedication can beat any person on any given day. sorry that i went off topic the last couple posts. MK just had the fastest growth, and now we're seeing new characters and new people win national/big tournaments.
brawl is unhealthy by design. it's infuriatingly stupid and people will continue to leave it in any case. I did say that I think banning MK extends it's life a bit because it gives it novelty and makes it new again, but it's still not a great game at the core and that will drive people off eventually either way IMO
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
SMASH is unhealthy by design. Doesn't stop people from playing Melee.
I think everyone just needs to chillax as I think once Overswarm finishes that **** video he'll give us something that will fix a lot of our problems with the game, increase the power of ground game, increase character viability unless Metaknight also gets a huge boost by it, and vastly increase options and approaches. Being able to stop your dash at any time is something this game needs and will be getting very soon.
I think everyone just needs to chillax as I think once Overswarm finishes that **** video he'll give us something that will fix a lot of our problems with the game, increase the power of ground game, increase character viability unless Metaknight also gets a huge boost by it, and vastly increase options and approaches. Being able to stop your dash at any time is something this game needs and will be getting very soon.
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
No ****.
You don't have to be born with a natural talent just to become a top player; it still takes a lot of hard work (for some people, more than others). However, you still have to be born with SOMETHING to allow you to become one.
What that "something" is, I couldn't say, but this is true for any sort of competition. Someone is always going to be born/raised with a certain potential for growth and a skill level cap, and no matter hard you train, you just really won't be able to reach past it.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Such thinking is the only thing stopping you from breaking that barrier...
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