Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

Lemme check...

remember what I said about character boards? <_<

there is no way in hell GAW beats IC's. I would doubt peach either but I''ll concede that I don't have the knowledge or experience to discuss that at all

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, Snake takes them apart. And think about peach... great air speed, weaves in and out, baits uairs and wrecks them... It's also what makes her so nice against Diddy.

 

[CRASHiC]

And don't forget her plethora of safe options on shield, making her incredibly hard to grab.

 

[_Keno_]

Also, many her of moves separate the pair quite nicely.

 

[etecoon]

And don't forget her plethora of safe options on shield, making her incredibly hard to grab.

this is the problem that I have with most people discussing IC's, people just see a character that is difficult to grab and assume they win as if that's all the IC's have going for them. snake isn't even unusually difficult to grab(in general at least) and he's the IC's worst matchup after MK, that's not all there is to it

 

[_Keno_]

this is the problem that I have with most people discussing IC's, people just see a character that is difficult to grab and assume they win as if that's all the IC's have going for them. snake isn't even unusually difficult to grab(in general at least) and he's the IC's worst matchup after MK, that's not all there is to it

Ok, how about she can combo them well, separate them easily, she is not easily grabbed, and she is difficult to out-space.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

this is the problem that I have with most people discussing IC's, people just see a character that is difficult to grab and assume they win as if that's all the IC's have going for them. snake isn't even unusually difficult to grab(in general at least) and he's the IC's worst matchup, that's not all there is to it

Fix'd.
10notsecond

 

[etecoon]

Ok, how about she can combo them well, separate them easily, she is not easily grabbed, and she is difficult to out-space.

this is much better.

Fix'd.
10notsecond

unpopular opinion but I'm sticking to it, I don't think the IC's are so good vs MK. even so it doesn't really change my point. snake beating IC's is about more than grab difficulty

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You misunderstand. The IC boards think that the snake matchup is REALLY bad. I dunno, maybe we should ask them some more? Or top ICs?

 

[MarKO X]

Lain goes DDD against good snakes iirc.

 

[Asdioh]

Snake beats ICs because he can easily separate and kill them, and also because even if you do grab him, a smart Snake will have explosives lying around so you can't chaingrab him.

But let's stop talking about what-ifs and get down to banning MK.

I vote Yea to temporary ban.

 

[etecoon]

You misunderstand. The IC boards think that the snake matchup is REALLY bad. I dunno, maybe we should ask them some more? Or top ICs?

I don't think most IC mains are worth listening to tbh <_< of the top IC's at least, I believe that meep and lain would both say it's a bad matchup, swordgard adamantly claims that it's even

a smart Snake will have explosives lying around so you can't chaingrab him.

snake can be chaingrabbed away from a grenade before it detonates. alternately you can have one IC hold him and have the other pick it up and throw it away. it's kind of depressing when that happens...

 

[Nicole]

Lain goes DDD against good snakes iirc.

He also goes DDD against good Peaches

 

[OverLade]

snake can be chaingrabbed away from a grenade before it detonates. alternately you can have one IC hold him and have the other pick it up and throw it away. it's kind of depressing when that happens...

You have to be realistic. Nana picking up and throwing away the grenade isn't realistic. Also, Snake just sitting there to get dashgrabbed while a nade is there isn't likely either. Good snakes may sidestep but only if the nade is right next to them. Otherwise they'll Ftilt, grab, or dash attack, all of which are safe from getting grabbed because of the nade (beside it's not like Nana would have near enough time to pick up the nade after snake got grabbed, and if she could snake could mash out before Nana got back anyway...).

 

[studly]

Snake just has a lot more tools to deal with the IC's than most other characters. if its all about not getting grabbed then he has some resources and zoning skillz not to mention his "get out of grab" tricks

 

[Hylian]

You have to be realistic. Nana picking up and throwing away the grenade isn't realistic. Also, Snake just sitting there to get dashgrabbed while a nade is there isn't likely either. Good snakes may sidestep but only if the nade is right next to them. Otherwise they'll Ftilt, grab, or dash attack, all of which are safe from getting grabbed because of the nade (beside it's not like Nana would have near enough time to pick up the nade after snake got grabbed, and if she could snake could mash out before Nana got back anyway...).

No, it's actually pretty easy to get away from nades in any situation using the cg I came up with on snake.

Dhtrow->Dthrow->Pivot grab gets you far away from nades and can be done easily before they explode. Ask razer if you don't believe me, I've cg'ed past his nades plenty of times.

I still think snake is their worst match-up though :/.

 

[OverLade]

No, it's actually pretty easy to get away from nades in any situation using the cg I came up with on snake.

Dhtrow->Dthrow->Pivot grab gets you far away from nades and can be done easily before they explode. Ask razer if you don't believe me, I've cg'ed past his nades plenty of times.

I still think snake is their worst match-up though :/.

I've never seen pivot grabs used in that fashion, are there any video examples?

 

[studly]

yeah seriously vids lol thats crazy

 

[Hylian]

It's my main method of CGing heavy characters people are always impressed when they first see it heh but I do it all the time. I'll see if I have any videos but I don't think I do of me playing any snakes. You can ask razer or other snakes I've played though.

I told lain about the CG at genesis and NK though I don't know if he uses it.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's the chain grab you were doing last weekend against the Snakes, right?
I remember seeing that.

I was surprised about how long it took for people to realize how to grab in that fashion, as Ice Climbers, to avoid the grenade. It sucks when something so simple flies right over your head.

 

[studly]

It's my main method of CGing heavy characters people are always impressed when they first see it heh but I do it all the time. I'll see if I have any videos but I don't think I do of me playing any snakes. You can ask razer or other snakes I've played though.

I told lain about the CG at genesis and NK though I don't know if he uses it.

So Hylian do you always go IC's against snake or did you already say?

 

[Mew2King]

me rofl

btw, me vs NL first game was last hit, but then i 2 stock lo w%ed him i think he got discouraged tut that is what happened. antis diddy beat me half the time though

 

[Hylian]

So Hylian do you always go IC's against snake or did you already say?

I go IC's against every character except Rob who I play GW against. And I also play GW when people take me to RC.

 

[etecoon]

You have to be realistic. Nana picking up and throwing away the grenade isn't realistic. Also, Snake just sitting there to get dashgrabbed while a nade is there isn't likely either. Good snakes may sidestep but only if the nade is right next to them. Otherwise they'll Ftilt, grab, or dash attack, all of which are safe from getting grabbed because of the nade (beside it's not like Nana would have near enough time to pick up the nade after snake got grabbed, and if she could snake could mash out before Nana got back anyway...).

nana throwing the nade away is a bizarre, rare occurrence, you're right, but I've been chain grabbed away from grenades repeatedly. unless it's already like half cooked it's very possible/likely for that to happen

 

[solecalibur]

Snake beats ICs because he can easily separate and kill them, and also because even if you do grab him, a smart Snake will have explosives lying around so you can't chaingrab him.

But let's stop talking about what-ifs and get down to banning MK.

I vote Yea to temporary ban.

I 2nd it only 66% of BR to go!

edit - seriously stop talking about ICs vs snake

 

[UltiMario]

Random questions that are almost unrelated but bringing them up anyway

Spoiler

because its fun to torture anti-ban

1. I hear Pro-bans saying and stuff that a scene without Meta Knight will be a healthier one character-wise, allowing more viarety in tourney results without MK simply hogging slots 2-X with holes inbetween for quite a few situations, as well as letting characters he utterly ***** come closer into the scene, correct?

Well, if people have a problem with MK dictating the character list, why don't people have a problem with DDD dictating the stage list? Perfectly legal stages like Delfino are turned Counterpick, and counterpicks like Corneria, are banned because of that downthrow of his being able to wall infinate characters, nobody has a problem with DDD doing this to the stage list, so why do people yell about what MK does to the character list like this is a unique thing in Brawl?

1.5. On a related note to this, why do characters like Marth, and I believe Lucario, go up in the tier list at this point? I mean, from pro-ban logic, with all MK being a dominant force in the Metagame ****** these characters, they should be heading the OPPOSITE direction.


2. Even though the Smash64 scene is small, it still exists, and they're still active. They don't ban Pikachu, which there, is like Meta Knight on steriods, but we ban MK? Nonsense.

End questions.


Random thing: I've seen that pro-ban is still trying to compare Ivan Ooze to MK. Get your facts straight. Ivan Ooze is like being able to plank with a hitbox around you at any part of the stage, and always having a fully charged Samus Charge Shot to use. Thats exactly how IO is, which make MK look like Ganondorf in comparison. Akuma is bit better to compare MK to, but not an accurate comparison either because with sides in that game, and the fireball infinates and being able to always chase escapees with ease, its like trying to fight a DDD on Shadow Moses, you'll just be falling against the wall in the end. These two characters outclass MK, easily, ESPECIALLY Ivan Ooze, but to what extent Akuma outclasses MK? Not exactly sure on that one myself, but even if its only by a smidge, Akuma is better.

 

[Spelt]

Ike can also wall infinite people. probably 1-2 other characters who can as well.

Do you have tournament results and fancy charts showing pikachu's dominance in 64?

marth vs mk and lucario vs mk are both around 60:40 iirc. not a big deal.



-yawn- i'm so tortured.


Edit: 1 stage that was put in couterpick and another that was banned because of DDD? BLASPHEMY! He MUST be banned.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Well, if people have a problem with MK dictating the character list, why don't people have a problem with DDD dictating the stage list? Perfectly legal stages like Delfino are turned Counterpick, and counterpicks like Corneria, are banned because of that downthrow of his being able to wall infinate characters, nobody has a problem with DDD doing this to the stage list, so why do people yell about what MK does to the character list like this is a unique thing in Brawl?

DDD is not the only character that affects the stage list. Permanent walk-off stages allow for extremely easy kills next to the edge with almost any character that has a reliable grab. Corneria has stage disruptions, such as the arwing randomly coming in and firing lasers. Shadow Moses Island negatively affects characters that have a hard time getting vertical KO's. Also as Spelt mentioned, Ike can chain grab heavy characters against the wall.

 

[UltiMario]

Spelt,

Just saying, if you ask the Smash64 boards and look at the match-up charts, Pikachu ***** every single character in the game like it was nothing.

For the rest of your answers you're strawmanning lol, then why don't we deal with Ike AND DDD, both being disruptive?

 

[Spelt]

Hardly a straw man argument and they're hardly disruptive.
there's 22 other potentially legal stages if corneria is banned.
Not to mention there are many other wall locks.

Stages become Banned stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not a fair or competitive stage at all, in that certain characters can easily have a near 100% win rate against others at top level play or that a large majority of the cast cannot actively be played on this stage, or that the stage simply requires such a radical change in gameplay that players cannot be reasonably expected to adapt (such as the Cave of Immortality in Hyrule Temple). Hazards can also cause a stage to be banned if they are random in nature and thus directly disrupting gameplay on a consistent basis, or if they are so powerful and/or unavoidable that they directly determine the outcome of a match on a consistent basis.

I guess we should deal with every character who falls into the "certain" category and everybody who doesn't fall into "a large majority" category

 

[HeroMystic]

Actually Corneria is banned because the backside of the stage is ****tastically overpowered.

 

[Chuee]

I also heard TL's Dsmash can kill ridiculously early on the left side.

 

[MJG]

^On Green Greens and Pipes as well XD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Random questions that are almost unrelated but bringing them up anyway

Spoiler

because its fun to torture anti-ban

1. I hear Pro-bans saying and stuff that a scene without Meta Knight will be a healthier one character-wise, allowing more viarety in tourney results without MK simply hogging slots 2-X with holes inbetween for quite a few situations, as well as letting characters he utterly ***** come closer into the scene, correct?

Well, if people have a problem with MK dictating the character list, why don't people have a problem with DDD dictating the stage list? Perfectly legal stages like Delfino are turned Counterpick, and counterpicks like Corneria, are banned because of that downthrow of his being able to wall infinate characters, nobody has a problem with DDD doing this to the stage list, so why do people yell about what MK does to the character list like this is a unique thing in Brawl?

1. Stages are as far not as important as chars. Or, if you want an actual argument, Sonic invalidates Hyrule and NPC, ban sonic.
The issue with this is, it's not just DDD who makes walkoffs and walls wrong. MK has multiple wall locks that go up to like what, 100+%? Falco has an infinite lazer lock and a longer CG when against a wall. Most people have very long jab strings against walls, etc. And walkoffs are gay... well, think about it. Falco CGs, Bowser GRs, blastzone camping if your bthrow isn't ****, etc.

1.5. On a related note to this, why do characters like Marth, and I believe Lucario, go up in the tier list at this point? I mean, from pro-ban logic, with all MK being a dominant force in the Metagame ****** these characters, they should be heading the OPPOSITE direction.

Marth has like, 3 hard matchups. MK takes one to the cleaners, one is completely inviable and should NEVER win a set if he lacks a secondary, and one is MK. I question this too-why did marth go up?

2. Even though the Smash64 scene is small, it still exists, and they're still active. They don't ban Pikachu, which there, is like Meta Knight on steriods, but we ban MK? Nonsense.

End questions.

Hmm... Pikachu, eh? Maybe you're forgetting something very important about Smash 64. Think again, and come back. Hint: it has to do with the amount of openings you need to force to win.

Random thing: I've seen that pro-ban is still trying to compare Ivan Ooze to MK. Get your facts straight. Ivan Ooze is like being able to plank with a hitbox around you at any part of the stage, and always having a fully charged Samus Charge Shot to use. Thats exactly how IO is, which make MK look like Ganondorf in comparison. Akuma is bit better to compare MK to, but not an accurate comparison either because with sides in that game, and the fireball infinates and being able to always chase escapees with ease, its like trying to fight a DDD on Shadow Moses, you'll just be falling against the wall in the end. These two characters outclass MK, easily, ESPECIALLY Ivan Ooze, but to what extent Akuma outclasses MK? Not exactly sure on that one myself, but even if its only by a smidge, Akuma is better.

MK>Akuma. Could Akuma stall the entire match out? Did you automatically lose when Akuma got the lead?

 

[Asdioh]

People need to stop comparing Brawl Meta Knight to Melee xxxx and 64 yyyy

They're completely different.

Unless I'm mistaken, despite Pikachu's apparent godliness, he has the same weakness every other character in the game has: massive hitstun upon being hit, leading to 0-deaths in most cases.

Melee: every character thought to be broken in the game has a weakness. I don't know a ton about the game, but Fox can be chaingrabbed, his recover is stupidly easy to stop, etc. Sheik? I honestly don't know anything about Sheik so I won't say anything. Isn't she like 4th on the current tier list though? There must be a reason she isn't 1st.
Jigglypuff? I also don't know much about this. I know her Bair has a huge disjoint at the end, her recovery is good, and Rest is insanely powerful, but I don't get the impression that she's even close to MK's level. Though I could be wrong, and in that case ban Jigglypuff ?
And, in the same case as 64, hitstun. It's to a lesser extent, yes, but the hitstun and speed are enough to overcome bad matchups in most cases.

As for MK...he's rly good. Name one of his "weaknesses" and there are many strengths to cover it up so it's not really a legitimate weakness. He has the best recovery of any Smash game ever, which, when combined with the fact that Brawl is the "easiest game to recover with" you have a character which literally should not be killed while offstage, ever.

Then there's the lack of hitstun, which means that if you do manage to get in on MK, you just get some chip damage and then reset back to the "neutral" position at which MK is at an advantage. It basically seems to me that anytime MK's being hit, it's because his opponent read him, used an attack quick enough to punish his almost nonexistant lag... and then that's it, they need to get out of there or MK's going to use one of his quick "combo breakers" to screw them over.

also tornado and invincible up B preventing any predicted recovery and rant rant rant rant

tl;dr is that if MK loses, he's doing it wrong, imo.

edit:

Hint: it has to do with the amount of openings you need to force to win.

Exactly that.

If (for example) N64 Kirby has to force say 5-10 openings to beat Pikachu in N64, in a FIVE STOCK match, compared to Brawl (for example) Marth having for force like 40-60 in a THREE STOCK match, there's a huge difference.

These numbers are estimates, I've never actually counted the number of openings you need to force in each game with a given character. If anyone cares to do so, feel free. It's just common sense that lots of hitstun = less openings required, and it's also common sense that almost nonexistant lag = very few openings.



now here's a match with me and a friend vs m2k 2on1 if anyone is bored and in need of lulz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-6ujLkEr2A
(super serious match btw)

 

[fkacyan]

MK>Akuma. Could Akuma stall the entire match out? Did you automatically lose when Akuma got the lead?

Akuma actually had already won the second the match began, wheras MK needs to establish percent advantage.

Literally: it is impossible to beat Akuma.

 

[Judo777]

Akuma actually had already won the second the match began, wheras MK needs to establish percent advantage.

Literally: it is impossible to beat Akuma.

Um no its not actually its just really freaking hard.

Also having we already banned things for having the potential to be a broken thing. IDC is banned but i have never seen anyone that can do IDC for 8 minutes straight their thumb would get tired and u can punish them when they finally screw up so why is that move banned?

 

[Asdioh]

So on my haxxored Wii, I changed Meta Knight's victory theme to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUVdA9ABzpg

This is on topic.

 

[fkacyan]

Um no its not actually its just really freaking hard.

Also having we already banned things for having the potential to be a broken thing. IDC is banned but i have never seen anyone that can do IDC for 8 minutes straight their thumb would get tired and u can punish them when they finally screw up so why is that move banned?

No, it's frame impossible roflmao, unless something's changed or I've been grossly misinformed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Where is the frame data that proves that you can't win against Akuma? We have the frame data that proves that it's impossible to win against an MK who gets the lead unless the MK makes a mistake.