Official Metaknight Discussion

[Masmasher@]

I say we take this ban situation and turn it into an iPhone app. We'll call it Brawl Lite. Brawl Lite is Brawl without meta knight and lasts for 6 months. After that trial period you must decide whether or not you want to buy it.

You see this kind of situation EVERYWHERE. Anti-banners are acting like if we try a temp ban, the world is going to end. It's an experiment.

Its really sort of silly.
It wont really do anything ether. what happens when meta knight comes back. What are you looking for when you actually do it. you already know that the results are going to change... you will have gained nothing except the opinion of the community which would be subjective on how much they like the situation with him gone. with him gone how do you prove that he is ban worthy. you have gained no ground. You ether ban him or you dont plus you are taking players practice with the character away. Theres no criteria to say that he is banworthy and the very fact that a temp ban would happen would be becuase you "feel" like having him gone.

 

[GwJ]

Its really sort of silly.
It wont really do anything ether. what happens when meta knight comes back. What are you looking for when you actually do it. you already know that the results are going to change... you will have gained nothing except the opinion of the community which would be subjective on how much they like the situation with him gone. with him gone how do you prove that he is ban worthy. you have gained no ground. You ether ban him or you dont plus you are taking players practice with the character away. Theres no criteria to say that he is banworthy and the very fact that a temp ban would happen would be becuase you "feel" like having him gone.

The point is if he does come back, obviously nothing changed and he remains unbanned. If the results show more diversity in the top placings, well then we're better off without MK. Simple as that.

 

[Masmasher@]

the Point Is If He Does Come Back, Obviously Nothing Changed And He Remains Unbanned. If The Results Show More Diversity In The Top Placings, Well Then We're Better Off Without Mk. Simple As That.

You Do Not Ban To Increase Diversity!

 

[GwJ]

You Do Not Ban To Increase Diversity!

We're seeings MK dominate by an godly margin. The hope is that with a temp ban, this won't happen and we'll actually see other characters in the top placings.

edit: Please capitalize the "G" and "J" in my name when you quote me. Thanks.

 

[Kewkky]

You Do Not Ban To Increase Diversity!

He doesn't ban, period. Hell, you don't ban either. TOs ban MK, and the SBR-B bans MK in their Recommended Rulesets.

 

[Kaffei]

We're seeings MK dominate by an godly margin. The hope is that with a temp ban, this won't happen and we'll actually see other characters in the top placings.

edit: Please capitalize the "G" and "J" in my name when you quote me. Thanks.

But what I don't get though is that it's alright for a whole bunch of Foxes and Falcos to place high but it's bad when a lot of MKs place high.

 

[GwJ]

It's not just Fox/Falco.

 

[Kaffei]

It's not just Fox/Falco.

It's not just MK.

 

[GwJ]

Essentially it is. People like ADHD and Ally are just really good. Also a quote from my friend: "And M2K says stupid **** like Diddy being an MK counter. He's an amazing player, a ******* poster."

 

[MarKO X]

It's not just MK.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954
lolwut

 

[Masmasher@]

We're seeings MK dominate by an godly margin. The hope is that with a temp ban, this won't happen and we'll actually see other characters in the top placings.

edit: Please capitalize the "G" and "J" in my name when you quote me. Thanks.

Odd for some reason when i quoted it automactically put you in lowercase... my computer is being dumb.

domination is subjective especially when looking at the top of nationals i see other characters. tourney results are inconclusive to show his ban worthness. that and you havent even established a criteria of which to ban him with.
Again banning to increase diversity is silly because you are taking away a character. Which may i remind you is a last resort.. Why ban temporary to see what you already know will happen. Its because you guys want to experience it which simply translates into "lets see how it feels like".
That is why temp bans are wrong. it based on your subjective reasoning.
Ether ban him or dont...

 

[GwJ]

We're not going to know if a ban will work until we try a temporary one. Until we do that pro-banners will provide arguments, anti-banners will cover their ears and act like creationists when an atheist talks to them.

 

[MarKO X]

There is definitely an alternative to showing whether MK is banworthy or not.

 

[Kaffei]

Essentially it is. People like ADHD and Ally are just really good. Also a quote from my friend: "And M2K says stupid **** like Diddy being an MK counter. He's an amazing player, a ******* poster."

http://theviashino.com/ssbb/tournaments-2010-1.txt
There are TONS of MK in that list, you are right. But there are still many more non MK playing top players. Lain, Bassem, Hylian, Jnig etc

I could just bring up a list of Melee tourneys and there would still be a lot of Foxes and Falcos, yet they aren't ban worthy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Adumbrodeus the smash community is doomed primarily because of its own idiocy. Why do you think I gave up the giant wall of text?

 

[Masmasher@]

We're not going to know if a ban will work until we try a temporary one. Until we do that pro-banners will provide arguments, anti-banners will cover their ears and act like creationists when an atheist talks to them.

You dont test out a ban
you do it...
A temp ban is saying lets test the waters because we can. which is a terrible reason to ban a character. you gain nothing from it and you dont prove anything to truly attest to whether hes broken. Temp ban would mean you're too lazy to establish a crteria to say why hes broken or overcentralizing. banning is a absolute. ether do it or dont.

 

[Turbo Ether]

We're not going to know if a ban will work until we try a temporary one. Until we do that pro-banners will provide arguments, anti-banners will cover their ears and act like creationists when an atheist talks to them.

Funniest thing i've read all night.

 

[GwJ]

Funny in a bad way?

 

[_Keno_]

Adumbrodeus the smash community is doomed primarily because of its own idiocy.

naw, just the brawl part of the community, which I am totally fine with btw.

 

[Judo777]

So instead of actually attempting to test to see if it would be beneficial and try a temp ban we should instead continue debating and having antiban tell proban that they dont have criteria and or the criteria they make is dumb?

 

[GwJ]

So instead of actually attempting to test to see if it would be beneficial and try a temp ban we should instead continue debating and having antiban tell proban that they dont have criteria and or the criteria they make is dumb?

Exactly my point.

 

[Masmasher@]

So instead of actually attempting to test to see if it would be beneficial and try a temp ban we should instead continue debating and having antiban tell proban that they dont have criteria and or the criteria they make is dumb?

You dont gain anything from a temp ban except to smell the roses.
Also you collaborate with anti ban to make the criteria.

 

[Master Raven]

wtf are you guys talking about mk vs ganon is NOT EVEN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMuwdwFqDxg

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You dont test out a ban
you do it...
A temp ban is saying lets test the waters because we can. which is a terrible reason to ban a character. you gain nothing from it and you dont prove anything to truly attest to whether hes broken. Temp ban would mean you're too lazy to establish a crteria to say why hes broken or overcentralizing. banning is a absolute. ether do it or dont.

You seem pretty lost and/or late in this thread.

We have already suggested temp ban and explained why. Come back tomorrow and see if anybody will want to explain pro-ban's main criteria AGAIN cause I'm not gonna do it AGAIN.

 

[Kewkky]

Adumbrodeus the smash community is doomed primarily because of its own idiocy.

When in Rome...

I don't feel the need to post right now, cuz OS is pretty much handling everything. Plus, he's got the data he needs to back up his claims, I don't have TO/Top Player contacts like he does, nor am I the one who researched and created his graphs, nor constructed all of his arguments (I only have my own, and they're only part of the bigger picture)... I'd much rather stay out of the way, than end up attempting to help him and ****ing things up or something.

 

[Masmasher@]

You seem pretty lost and/or late in this thread.

We have already suggested temp ban and explained why. Come back tomorrow and see if anybody will want to explain pro-ban's main criteria AGAIN cause I'm not gonna do it AGAIN.

*Sigh*

Ive read the criteria it doesnt work because it just throwing false rules. It wont strive with out collbaoration from both sides

 

[Turbo Ether]

Funny in a bad way?

Funny in a "lol irl" way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Repost them. I will try to answer them.

I'm probably just going to retype them in a sec seeing as digging through this thread isn't something I'm happy to do.

And you underestimate just how well most C tiers can perform against the top characters (excluding MK). Notable examples of characters who are borderline viable but get hammered down by MK (assuming the MK knows the respectable matchup and can exploit his advantages) are Peach, Lucario, Toon Link, Kirby, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic (possibly), and more.

I don't advise claiming Brawl to be "horridly unbalanced" if we haven't yet explored an option (you know that I'm talking about) that could possibly result in the game becoming respectably balanced overall. And why? Conservatism? Sticking to what may be outdated principles? You tell me.

The bolded only have a 4:6 with MK. That doesn't make them unviable.

You Do Not Ban To Increase Diversity!

You can ban for diversity if the diversity is astronomically better without a character in the game.

 

[AvaricePanda]

cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments

I mean OS and adumbrodeus have been suggesting some new stuff, and other random people have had legitimate concerns, but for the most part this is one big loop of a debate that's been looping for a year. I honestly can't see why most of you are doing this. If you didn't care, you just wouldn't bother to post. If you did care, you wouldn't be rehashing and attacking old points and instead be considering the ins and outs of suggestions that have come from the two aforementioned, or your own.

For the most part though, all you're doing is stressing yourself out over nothing.

 

[Kaffei]

cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments

I mean OS and adumbrodeus have been suggesting some new stuff, and other random people have had legitimate concerns, but for the most part this is one big loop of a debate that's been looping for a year. I honestly can't see why most of you are doing this. If you didn't care, you just wouldn't bother to post. If you did care, you wouldn't be rehashing and attacking old points and instead be considering the ins and outs of suggestions that have come from the two aforementioned, or your own.

For the most part though, all you're doing is stressing yourself out over nothing.

Can't we just play the game.. jeez..
inb4 big rant on why im wrong

 

[CRASHiC]

*Sigh*

Ive read the criteria it doesnt work because it just throwing false rules. It wont strive with out collbaoration from both sides

Then tell why.

And also, may I ask, when was the last time you followed a single brawl tournament? If you don't play Brawl, if you don't follow its Metagame (for either side) then you don't really belong in this argument because you are not aware of the Metaknight prescense in the game.

And simply knowing what happened in Pound 4 is NOT following the Brawl metagame. Would you like it if some unknowing Brawl player called Jiggs broken? I think not.

 

[iRJi]

The temp. Ban is meant to provide results. For the people who want to read my old proposal, you can go to this link here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9519394&postcount=2846

Of course, I want to fix this up. Because people are agreeing on this, I think both sides can come up with a proposal that we can compromise on.

 

[Judo777]

I'm probably just going to retype them in a sec seeing as digging through this thread isn't something I'm happy to do.



The bolded only have a 4:6 with MK. That doesn't make them unviable.



You can ban for diversity if the diversity is astronomically better without a character in the game.

Except most of the MU numbers are wrong and thats why half of the boards are redoing their numbers lol.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments cycle arguments

this is why i stopped reading this thread, waste of time and non sense no one is ever gonna reach a consensus

 

[Masmasher@]

Then tell why.

And also, may I ask, when was the last time you followed a single brawl tournament? If you don't play Brawl, if you don't follow its Metagame (for either side) then you don't really belong in this argument because you are not aware of the Metaknight prescense in the game.

And simply knowing what happened in Pound 4 is NOT following the Brawl metagame. Would you like it if some unknowing Brawl player called Jiggs broken? I think not.

Lets flip it.
results to easy to see but are they the end all reason to ban.
why does a temp ban work? Im not saying "OMG ADHD win pro ban =scrubs!"
im sayin that no hashed criteria from pro ban has been thrown out. the criteria that has been suggested is not stern enough and leads towards a dream reality. You shouldnt be rallying to ban him you should be established a collaborative effort with anti ban to make a concrete testment to decide whether he is banworthy.

 

[TP]

Anti ban: "You need criteria to ban MK."

Pro ban: "Here's our criteria."

Anti ban: "That criteria is subjective because it doesn't have results from MK banned tourneys to prove anything."

Pro ban: "How about a temp ban then, to establish data?"

Anti ban: "No."

WTF?

 

[Omni]

How does a temporary ban establish a criteria for a ban?

Also, a temporary ban that is not issued on a national level only gives results for specific regions. That data is incomplete and thus unusable.

Only way temporary ban will work is if it replaces the status quo completely.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Adumbrodeus the smash community is doomed primarily because of its own idiocy.

naw, just the brawl part of the community, which I am totally fine with btw.

Wanna play some melee?

So instead of actually attempting to test to see if it would be beneficial and try a temp ban we should instead continue debating and having antiban tell proban that they dont have criteria and or the criteria they make is dumb?

Ok heres the deal. Banning a character causes massive disruption such as directly causing many of the character's players to quit, so it is very rarely advocated. As OS has shown in his posts, a lot of the player base, especially on the higher levels, plays MK. So, banning metaknight will cause a good chunk of the top level to quit. Sounds like the perfect way to "raise attendance".

Now from what i've read of OS, he wants to ban MK to raise attendance and character viability in order to save the game or do whats best for the health of the metagame or some bull**** like that. How far have you (yeah, you) gone that you will ignore the proper rules for banning a character (ei, proof he is broken) and ban him for any reason past the fact that its the right reason.

OS used example before: Say for whatever reason attendance will raise dramatically if ganondorf is banned from play. In that case, OS says we should ban ganondorf just to get more players. Does you even see how wrong that is?

 

[Masmasher@]

Anti ban: "You need criteria to ban MK."

Pro ban: "Here's our criteria."

Anti ban: "That criteria is subjective because it doesn't have results from MK banned tourneys to prove anything."

Pro ban: "How about a temp ban then, to establish data?"

Anti ban: "No."

WTF?

the crteria has to come from both sides. you have to collaborate. build from history. if you were trying to ban someone and had criteria that easily favored towards ban then of course i would look at you sideways. imput from both sides is needed. You also need to look back on history of characters being banned and build from associating. yes this is a different game but essentially its still a fighting game.

 

[Virturealm]

(been hearing about these discussions from crewmembers for a while, finally had to take a peek, but only has patience for first ten and last ten pages)

If you'll tolerate the random nobody coming in and telling you what to do, (which comes pretty close to summing up the thread, to a degree), why does anyone care about a consensus? Just the principle of "someone is wrong on the internet?"

You know you're right. You know that you already have the majority/supermajority behind you. Forget the discussion. Figure out which people are standing in the way of making this ban happen, figure out what they require to be persuaded, and do it. If these people cannot be persuaded, stop trying to persuade them, and find a way to work around them.

Less talking to walls, more strategy.