Official Metaknight Discussion

[Turazrok]

So... What you are saying is fox has a bad matchup? or are they just 50:50's lol. the first part says all 50:50, but then you say Jiggs beats fox.

Careful what you say btw, =]

No... he said jiggs has advantageous stages, and fox does not.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Why hasnt yuna come in here and destroyed the idea of a temp ban yet... really you would think after 5 polls of the idea being tarnished you guys would just skip the theactrics.

Also remember banning a character is a LAST resort.

Opinion. A last resort would be more than a ban, way more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bleh forget it. It's not important. Brawl talk time.
--------------------------

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

Again, I ask for your input.

you wouldn't see it so much if you would just answer it =]

/SUPPORT
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Jiggs does beat Fox slightly with the rules right now. On neutrals, the MU is stage dependent. Fox wins cuz of Green Greens and Corneria, which are off now, but Brinstar is still legal. I think Jiggs has a small advantage because of current ruleset (stages mostly). That doesn't mean it's a bad MU, it's just a gay one

Snake might win the MK MU if Green Greens was legal and RC was banned. He almost certainly would if Eldin was legal. Point?

 

[MarKO X]

No... he said jiggs has advantageous stages, and fox does not.

So... wouldn't that mean that Jiggs has the advantage?

Opinion. A last resort would be more than a ban, way more.

What's more "last resort" than a character Ban?

 

[Mew2King]

^ wtf

no, what banning a character does is completely screw over every MK player with no remorse. Even if I didn't use MK I could not support that

edit - having an advantage does not mean it's a bad MU

edit 2 - gtg bbl

 

[iRJi]

Well, if jiggs wins, then it kind of is a bad MU. Not bad as in "OMG CP LAWLZ" but just in jiggs favor.

Just wanted to clarify that you did say earlier that you discredited someone for saying that he possibly has an unfavorable MU, and tech. by your words, he does.

Just saying xP

 

[ADHD]

Flower jiggz is HAWT

 

[iRJi]

^ wtf

no, what banning a character does is completely screw over every MK player with no remorse. Even if I didn't use MK I could not support that

edit - having an advantage does not mean it's a bad MU

Care to explain in further detail Jason?

I am all ears for ya, honestly. Just make sure punctuation is accurately applied. It does get hard to read your posts sometimes.

Edit: Aww, so much for that.

Any one else want me to do that rewrite?

 

[Mew2King]

Barely having an advantage because of current stage rules does not make it a bad MU. Just because it's not DEAD even does not make it bad. The MU is almost even, but Jiggs has a 0% KO move she can get at any time which is why I think it's a gay MU, esp when she has an easy win 3rd game if you lose the first.

 

[Albert.]

subscribe**** LMAO


The thing that I really hate about MK is the transcendent priority on most all moves. That **** is ghey as ****

M2k DID YOU ASK them to program that in?!!?!?

 

[Kaffei]

Well, if jiggs wins, then it kind of is a bad MU. Not bad as in "OMG CP LAWLZ" but just in jiggs favor.

Just wanted to clarify that you did say earlier that you discredited someone for saying that he possibly has an unfavorable MU, and tech. by your words, he does.

Just saying xP

If it's that bad then why does M2K pick Fox over his Marth I just don't understand

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Even an EVEN matchup is something that MK lacks.

 

[Mew2King]

Diddy beats MK on neutrals, Falco goes even w/ MK on neutrals, and the WHOBO rules that Xyro has has Snake having a small advantage vs MK. Without a gay counterpick, ICs do fine vs MK too. Wario/Falco even get to pick Jungle Japes where Wario never dies and Falco can CG to spike or run away forever.

 

[iRJi]

If it's that bad then why does M2K pick Fox over his Marth I just don't understand

I dont either, which is why i am asking.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

EDIT: Bad post. Let me come back to this when it's not 3 in the morning.

 

[CaptainEvilStomper9]

I honestly think that MK is only so dominate because so many people main him, I think that if as many people mained Snake or Diddy instead of Metaknight the top would have a lot of Snakes and Diddys just like how the top has many Metaknights now. You can't really argue that a characters broken because he takes 5 out of the top 8 when he's top tier and 1/3 of the community mains him, of course he does well when 1/3 of the community mains him he has the most chances to do well and it statistically likely to do the best due to the numbers. I think if there was a alternate reality 1/3 of the community mained Snake or Diddy he would be just as dominate as Metaknight (if not very close too), people would probably even consider Snake or Diddy the best if 1/3 of the community mained them. I do think Metaknight is the best character in the game but I think for whatever reason people flock to him and it overrates him, maybe its because hes easy to pick up or because so many people main him now so others follow, these are the things that are making him considered to be ban and not his character. In summary many people flock to Metaknight (more so then any other character) because others have (or it could that hes easy to pick up) and this coupled with the fact that hes already the best character (by a small not ban worthy margin) makes him do well in tourney, just because people are attracted to Metaknight for whatever reason shouldn't make him banned, Snake and Diddy would do equally well if as many of the people mained then instead of Metaknight (and as many people mained Metaknight as Snake OR Diddy have now. Making it the exact opposite Metaknight to Diddy OR Snake ratio).

 

[Mew2King]

yeah Rainbow is pretty stupid. I want those gay stages off. ADHD beat me there I think last 2 times I tried that though, so it can't be THAT awful. I still disagree with it being allowed on though. Gay stages are stupid.

Xyro's rules have MK unable to counterpick a non-neutral, and ledge grab and stalling rules in effect.

I use Fox against Jiggs because I get frustrated that Marth can't KO her. That's my main reason. I do not think Marth beats jiggs, I think it is the opposite.

btw, I have some validity with knowing and using Jiggs. I was able to 4 stock Jman's fox on FD with jiggs at winterfest, and the only friendly I played with silent spectre with jiggs I 2 stocked him (also FD friendly, this was yesterday). I understand these are just friendlies, but I barely used Jiggs at all compared to my other characters, and these are top players I am doing it against, and they both said I had a good jiggs even though I lack exp with her (and SS was beating my marth/fox half our friendlies, I won like around 70% with sheik I think, so I think it's fairly legit). Jiggs don't even use down throw yet. You can force a DI off stage at the edge by down throwing them (where you have a high chance of an easy edge guard KO) and if they DI back (or no DI) you can rest them. From 0 to over 100%, down throw to rest combos Fox. I believe Falco and C.Falcon are either the same or very similar.

unrelated but a good part of my skill with Jiggs just comes from copying Hbox and Mango. I have it easy because they already evolved the character for me. I extended it with down throw to rest (which I do not see anyone else use).

 

[iRJi]

Diddy beats MK on neutrals, Falco goes even w/ MK on neutrals, and the WHOBO rules that Xyro has has Snake having a small advantage vs MK. Without a gay counterpick, ICs do fine vs MK too. Wario/Falco even get to pick Jungle Japes where Wario never dies and Falco can CG to spike or run away forever.

care to go into explanation with each character as to why they might have a small advantage/ even scenario. Of course, I want full details. with that I can properly analyze the information you are giving to the community and see if there is any proper solutions.

I know it's a lot to prob type, but it would be very beneficial.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@CES9: I only TL;DR when there is no paragraphing or sentence structure worth mentioning. :V Also, MK is also, by a long shot, the most dominant in the game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

M2K, does the term "outlier" mean anything to you?

Also, in melee, there were 4-6 chars where you either knew the matchup or you lost. Not one. You were guaranteed to run into a few peaches, a few foxes, a few sheiks... not 5-6 foxes in brackets, and maybe one CF.

Also, fox had weaknesses and, arguably, bad matchups.

You run into Sheiks?

Obviously you're been playing Plank or Drephen a lot recently.


Also, fox's worst MUs are arguable tiny tiny advantages against him, and honestly with how the metagame's advanced falco seems to be the only one that might hold up, what with improvement in tech skill.

Uh, you say yourself that Fox loses to Jiggs, and we all know Fox being gimpable is his weakness.

Come on we all know that's just blowing smoke. Fox is just too fast, he can bait jiggs too well and punish whatever she does hard. We're seeing a resurgence of great Jiggs players atm, but I don't think it will last forever.

Why did they take off coneria?

Because MBR is conservative as hell ATM.

 

[Kaffei]

Also, MK is also, by a long shot, the most dominant in the game.

I don't see why this is such a huge problem.

 

[Spelt]

does this mean there's a chance a new melee tier list might come out?

 

[iRJi]

Stop with the Melee guys. You are all straying off topic.

Btw, I need more answers for this. Ty for the people who responded alrady:


If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

Again, I ask for your input.

you wouldn't see it so much if you would just answer it =]

 

[Kaffei]

Stop with the Melee guys. You are all straying off topic.

Btw, I need more answers for this. Ty for the people who responded alrady:


If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

Again, I ask for your input.

you wouldn't see it so much if you would just answer it =]

I'm not really anybody, but a temp ban doesn't seem bad at all.

 

[Mew2King]

MK doesn't deserve a ban or a temp ban at all. You guys only want that because it will be easier for all of you who don't use him. I think this is very unfair, and I hope you guys will realize how hard you would be screwing it for the rest of us who legitimately studied or practiced hard with MK to just disallow him because you don't like him.

 

[*Tyson*]

Even if 1/3 of the community did main Diddy/Snake they results would not be as dominating as MK. Diddy and Snake actually have bad match ups and stages that can screw them up as well. Many of the characters that can go toe to toe with Diddy and Snake are C tier or worse.


M2K, you really can't bring up the argument of "fairness"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Stop with the Melee guys. You are all straying off topic.

Btw, I need more answers for this. Ty for the people who responded alrady:


If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

Again, I ask for your input.

you wouldn't see it so much if you would just answer it =]

*sigh*


People aren't willing to listen anymore, I've been screaming, "community consensus, compromise" since day one of this thread. I've gotten several people to listen, but most people just care about being right at this point.


So, while I agree that a temp ban would be interesting for data gathering purposes, I don't think people give a rat's *** about what the data says anymore.

 

[Pierce7d]

MK doesn't deserve a ban or a temp ban at all. You guys only want that because it will be easier for all of you who don't use him. I think this is very unfair, and I hope you guys will realize how hard you would be screwing it for the rest of us who legitimately studied or practiced hard with MK to just disallow him because you don't like him.

If it makes you feel any better I will always feel that it's unfair to you. Not most others though.

 

[Spelt]

People aren't willing to listen anymore, I've been screaming, "community consensus, compromise" since day one of this thread.

i agree that we do need this. but i wasn't really putting any attention in it because i'm not very important.
it would be more effective if BBR members were to join in with this.

 

[Kaffei]

MK doesn't deserve a ban or a temp ban at all. You guys only want that because it will be easier for all of you who don't use him. I think this is very unfair, and I hope you guys will realize how hard you would be screwing it for the rest of us who legitimately studied or practiced hard with MK to just disallow him because you don't like him.

Don't be ridiculous M2K.. I love MK and I main him (but who cares cus I suck). I watched the whole Kirby show just because he was in it.
I know it's super unfair for you because you have dedicated so much time into playing MK and learning all his MUs and tricks but this is about the community.. So don't quit

 

[Mew2King]

It's not even those "bad matchups" though. Everyone flocks to MK because he's easier to use at a lower level and everyone talking about him makes people want to use him as 2ndaries. I don't mind this at all personally, in fact I like fighting MK, but these are the primary reasons. As for the top results go among MKs, about 80% of those MKs are ones I trained specifically. Ksizl and Tyrant especially (and housed with DSF for 3 weeks, and talk to Havok on aim often). I trained or helped out a lot at least 8-10 of the dominant MKs today, and my results are a lot higher than theirs always, yet I still lose a lot. I do not see him as being a super dominant character at high level, but no one is that good yet at this game just like no one was good at Melee first 2 years. The top of the metagame still only has one MK that wins everything and that's me. Tyrant is arguably 2nd best MK and he loses to DEHF most of the time, while Dojo got 4th losing to Hylian and Razor. I helped them get a lot better (more so Tyrant than Dojo, but both of them) and they are the next most dominant, so I do not think this character is that broken. I think you all either overreact to it, or just want him to be gone so you do better in tourney. I hope when you guys end up voting for pro ban you understand how unfair it is to the people who practiced hard with the character to get screwed over for doing nothing wrong

 

[iRJi]

*sigh*


People aren't willing to listen anymore, I've been screaming, "community consensus, compromise" since day one of this thread. I've gotten several people to listen, but most people just care about being right at this point.


So, while I agree that a temp ban would be interesting for data gathering purposes, I don't think people give a rat's *** about what the data says anymore.

yea, which is why I am just repeatedly asking until people get the hint that their petty bickering isn't going no where xD. They will stop eventually, it always happens. It just that something new pops up and sparks them, so I am hoping this will be the next spark.

btw, ty for your input xP

 

[Mew2King]

@ pierce - if that's really what you think you should be voting to restrict him instead of to ban him. That way we are not permanently screwed for no reason. (I am still in the opinion that diddy is the best in the game right now, although I may change my mind soon in the future depending on stuff)

 

[Kaffei]

It's not even those "bad matchups" though. Everyone flocks to MK because he's easier to use at a lower level and everyone talking about him makes people want to use him as 2ndaries. I don't mind this at all personally, in fact I like fighting MK, but these are the primary reasons. As for the top results go among MKs, about 80% of those MKs are ones I trained specifically. Ksizl and Tyrant especially (and housed with DSF for 3 weeks, and talk to Havok on aim often). I trained or helped out a lot at least 8-10 of the dominant MKs today, and my results are a lot higher than theirs always, yet I still lose a lot. I do not see him as being a super dominant character at high level, but no one is that good yet at this game just like no one was good at Melee first 2 years. The top of the metagame still only has one MK that wins everything and that's me. Tyrant is arguably 2nd best MK and he loses to DEHF most of the time, while Dojo got 4th losing to Hylian and Razor. I helped them get a lot better (more so Tyrant than Dojo, but both of them) and they are the next most dominant, so I do not think this character is that broken. I think you all either overreact to it, or just want him to be gone so you do better in tourney. I hope when you guys end up voting for pro ban you understand how unfair it is to the people who practiced hard with the character to get screwed over for doing nothing wrong

When you put it that way, I actually don't want a temp ban.

 

[*Tyson*]

If you are indeed a top player and as good as people think you are, then picking up 1 of the MANY other viable characters will result in your placings being generally the same.

 

[Kaffei]

If you are indeed a top player and as good as people think you are, then picking up 1 of the MANY other viable characters will result in your placings being generally the same.

But why should he have to pick up a different character that he might not enjoy playing just because there are so many whiners who don't like MK? That doesn't make any sense and it's stupid

 

[Mew2King]

no it doesn't not at all

so you're saying if we suddenly banned Diddy, or Falco, that ADHD and DEHF would do as good?

if we banned jiggs in melee, Hbox would do as good?

all of their skill and mindset are dedicated specifically to one character. Banning that character makes them significantly worse


edit - I really gtg right now, I'll bbl (at college)

 

[C.J.]

M2K, just because I see you post the exact same thing often, do you have those posts saved to a notepad or something?

 

[Kaffei]

M2K, just because I see you post the exact same thing often, do you have those posts saved to a notepad or something?

What the hell does this have to do with the argument

 

[Albert.]

M2K what do you think of Marth's placement and also of Marths reputation of "MK-"