memphischains
Smash hhkj'
you're slightly different limpyhorse26
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Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
"we rounded the numbers - the actual numbers are very very slightly different"
Ahh. Of course... XD Thanks
Ahh. Of course... XD Thanks
JrdnS
Smash Ace
hows 8.0 and 7.9 a tie?
did you, by chance, mean jiggs and cf?
did you, by chance, mean jiggs and cf?
firexemblemxpryde
Smash Lord
Just about PERFECT tier list. Definitely those top 7 or so are good. Only possible question would be Mario vs Doc? Other than that, good job guys =D
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
it just means it's oober close
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
D
Deleted member
Guest
CF and Jiggly are the only true tie @ 8.0
himynameisruss
Smash Journeyman
woah there
xXx-NoobKing-xXx
Smash Hero
I think it's funny Falcon is below Peach when he does at least as good (or slightly better) than Peach against every Top tier character >.>
Winston
Smash Master
Doesn't Peach do better against Falco and Fox? Those matchups seem pretty bad for Falcon...
and as has been said numerous times, tournament results etc. etc. ....
Shy Guy 86
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 8, 2008
- Messages
- 848
Maybe she's better overall, or has better matchups against the low tiers
Emperor Mario
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 7, 2008
- Messages
- 59
What are the scores based on? votes?
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
It would be fun to see different big posts arguing for certain placings from people in the SBR. That stuff is fun to read. It'd be awesome if someone posted good posts from the threads in the SBR where they discussed the tiers
You're forgetting falcon
Yhea she does. Falcon does way better against marth though. As for sheik it's fairly bad for them both
Yes, although Falcon is pretty even. Marth-Sheik 45-55 is really generous for Marth, 40-60 seems more reasonable to me.
EDIT: Yes, I meant 40-60 not 60-40. Thanks Ragnarok.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
60-40? u mean the other way, 40 for marth 60 for shiek right?
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
^^It's in falcon's favor imo. Although, if the marth gains a lead and edgecamps (if he doesnt have the lead he cant edgecamp cuz the falcon can just wait him out), he gets the advantage (no joke)
I agree that 60-40 seems more reasonable for marth/sheik. (sheiks favor, off course)
I agree that 60-40 seems more reasonable for marth/sheik. (sheiks favor, off course)
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
sheik vs peach from what i've always been told is even or 55-45 sheiks advantage.
eh.. if the marth doesn't know how to play falcon then maybe its a counter.
eh.. if the marth doesn't know how to play falcon then maybe its a counter.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i still think peach and falcon is close, super close
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
JBM, I'm pretty sure most high level players consider marth vs falcon atleast a favourable matchup for falcon. Marth doesn't have many strong points in that matchup except edgeguarding.
BTW everyone, we should discuss low tiers, i just realized this thread consists of like 23 pages discussing the placing of like 4 chars lol.
Kirby is terrible and should be last. To be honest, I think pichu does so horribly in tournaments b/c noone bothers to play him b/c pikachu is basically the same character but better, so people just play pika instead.
Pichu moves fast, has decent combos and good finishers. Other then that he's horrible, but kirby is just horrible and nothing else.
I think M2 moving up makes a lot of sense imo, mainly due to his great maunuverability. He has a great DD and WD. He also has fairly good grab combos and setups, and good tilts.
Bowser is awesome and should be on the top of the bottom tier. Assuming that yoshi isn't in the bottom tier off course, b/c yoshi isnt bottom tier. After that: M2, pichu, ness and last kirby.
BTW everyone, we should discuss low tiers, i just realized this thread consists of like 23 pages discussing the placing of like 4 chars lol.
Kirby is terrible and should be last. To be honest, I think pichu does so horribly in tournaments b/c noone bothers to play him b/c pikachu is basically the same character but better, so people just play pika instead.
Pichu moves fast, has decent combos and good finishers. Other then that he's horrible, but kirby is just horrible and nothing else.
I think M2 moving up makes a lot of sense imo, mainly due to his great maunuverability. He has a great DD and WD. He also has fairly good grab combos and setups, and good tilts.
Bowser is awesome and should be on the top of the bottom tier. Assuming that yoshi isn't in the bottom tier off course, b/c yoshi isnt bottom tier. After that: M2, pichu, ness and last kirby.
^^this is my opinion, im not criticizing the tier list or trying to state these things as fact
jugfingers
Smash Champion
choknater
Smash Obsessed
this list is too good
slikvik
Smash Master
it was probably boss. really good MD/VA player. one of the best mario/doc mains
Those are really the only things I would change actually. But they're all so close anyway, it really doesn't matter too much. This is a really solid list, and definitely better than the 2006-2008 list, which I don't feel anyone has agreed with for quite a while. This mad a lot of improvements that accurately reflected the metagame.
Emperor Mario
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 7, 2008
- Messages
- 59
Is every charcter on the middle tier considered tournament viable?
Vts
Smash Champion
everyone is tournament viable but for winning i would say from high up with a few from middle tier.
Super Angry Luigi
Smash Apprentice
Yay Luigi is finally in the mid tier, and is higher than Mario (barely)!
OmegaXXII
Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
wow, i'm surprised to say bowser is bottom tier, but in conclusive he is so..., but yes, this is definetly a solid list to go by.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
dude i'm gonna keep saying this till the day i die.
dr. mario sucks balls. mario is way better.
dr. mario sucks balls. mario is way better.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
no. i am.
Niko45
Smash Master
I think the argument that the tier list being based on player skill being constant and also from tournament results is a complete contradiction. There are a ton of factors that determine character quality and its not wholesome enough to just use results.
There needs to be more specific definitions of what makes a character good. Are we talking about versus all 26 characters? Top tiers only? Upper and Top only? Also, what stages? Tournament neutral, counterpicks, all stages?
There are general inconsistencies with the "bottom line tournament result" argument because obviously some theory is going into this or you might think characters like DK would be higher (or what about Luigi moving up so much? Is Luigi really coming on strong in tournament like that? Doc? Samus?). Does there only need to be a handful of standout players with a character (ICs, Samus, Jigglypuff)to give it the bump on the tier list, or is it a stronger argument that the character is used effectively by many many players (top tiers)? I agree with the list strongly in general but not on the premises that it seems to have been created upon.
Also, that comment about pros underestimating their characters and overestimating characters they lose to was the best post so far. This tier list is very accurate in my opinion (top tier included).
There needs to be more specific definitions of what makes a character good. Are we talking about versus all 26 characters? Top tiers only? Upper and Top only? Also, what stages? Tournament neutral, counterpicks, all stages?
There are general inconsistencies with the "bottom line tournament result" argument because obviously some theory is going into this or you might think characters like DK would be higher (or what about Luigi moving up so much? Is Luigi really coming on strong in tournament like that? Doc? Samus?). Does there only need to be a handful of standout players with a character (ICs, Samus, Jigglypuff)to give it the bump on the tier list, or is it a stronger argument that the character is used effectively by many many players (top tiers)? I agree with the list strongly in general but not on the premises that it seems to have been created upon.
Also, that comment about pros underestimating their characters and overestimating characters they lose to was the best post so far. This tier list is very accurate in my opinion (top tier included).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think Falcon does slightly better vs Fox than Peach does at high level, considerably worse against Falco, considerably better against Marth, and then Sheik is horrible for both of them.
Kirby is the worst character in the game.
Kirby is the worst character in the game.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
yea, its true
Pantsmann
Smash Lord
you gotta be really careful with how you use tournament placings to provide character rankings, because what *i forget whoever said it, but the stuff about how marth is bettr than sheik because m2k does better vs spacies with him* said means that the tier list should be only the characters that make it to finals brackets. which means that almost the entire of bottom and low tier shouldn't even be on the list at all. from all of this, it means that the tier list obviously doesn't just show tournament rankings.
more than that, what if m2k ***** 3/4 of his bracket with sheik and does better with sheik in those matches compared to how his marth would go? would you discount that simply because he finds cg to be more comfortable to him personally against spacies? i mean really, saying that one character is better than another because some people find a certain playstyle more comfortable against like 3 characters is just stupid. otherwise link should have been next to marth a while back because he was counted as about even (but even back then he was still low tier).
going back to tournament ranking, if you want to say "the tiers reflect who will win in tournaments" then just rank players. the tier list reflects who is a better character regardless of who is playing them.
more than that, what if m2k ***** 3/4 of his bracket with sheik and does better with sheik in those matches compared to how his marth would go? would you discount that simply because he finds cg to be more comfortable to him personally against spacies? i mean really, saying that one character is better than another because some people find a certain playstyle more comfortable against like 3 characters is just stupid. otherwise link should have been next to marth a while back because he was counted as about even (but even back then he was still low tier).
going back to tournament ranking, if you want to say "the tiers reflect who will win in tournaments" then just rank players. the tier list reflects who is a better character regardless of who is playing them.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
This now finally proves that Marth is actually in the same league as fox,falco and sheik. As many pros have stated that marth was slightly under the other three, it seems as M2k and azen from late 06 to now have proven that he is part of the epitome of high level melee play, if ken did not prove his skills by becomeing the king of smash and beating japan's best andcreating the marth metagame that has made the character an MLG and other big tourney winner. Jiggs got up partially beacuse of Mango's amazing sucess and BUm did the same for donkey kong. Just looking at the 9.9 thing, can anyone in the SBR tell me how close marth was from passing fox for the number one spot?
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
how is mario better than doc? @JBM
pills and fair > marios
i just dont understand. I guess hes got a better recovery but they are both so horrid it doesnt matter.
pills and fair > marios
i just dont understand. I guess hes got a better recovery but they are both so horrid it doesnt matter.
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