Official MBR Tier List

[Deleted member]

Whose idea was it to call this the final tier list, by the way? I imagine it was Mow b/c he has this thing where he likes to assert with absolute certainty that Melee is dead when of course it clearly isn't.

But that should be changed. Once the SBR-M is up and running I'm sure in a year or so there will be changes that need to be made, a lot of people that still play have problems with Marth being higher than Sheik.

Apparently a ton of people have problems with the bottom half of the list too so I'm just saying, not a final list.

To my understanding, the SBR decided that this was the final list, and that the metagame had stagnated enough by 2007 that it would be unlikely that the metagame would advance any further after Brawl's release. This assertion has proven to be completely correct, since the only two national level melee tournaments (Fast1, Event 52) were both won by m2k who barely ever plays, showing that no one else has surpassed him and that no progression has been made.

Rather, the opposite effect seems to be the case where the game has stagnated enough such that the majority of players have gotten worse. Looking at your recent matches, you're no exception. Neither am I. Is the game dead? No, and I won't say that it is. But to assert that the popularity of the game has risen or remained static is such a deviation from reality that I'm slightly concerned that you still feel this way. Melee is a diminishing game, both in popularity and in the competitive scene.

Anyone who says that Marth should not be higher than sheik has never played in the top 8 of an MLG event or is named Mew2King. Marth has statistically and competitively proven himself to be the best in the game over and over, and to deny so is a clear act of ignorance against easily obtainable and clearly presentable data.

 

[Vts]

To my understanding, the SBR decided that this was the final list, and that the metagame had stagnated enough by 2007 that it would be unlikely that the metagame would advance any further after Brawl's release. This assertion has proven to be completely correct, since the only two national level melee tournaments (Fast1, Event 52) were both won by m2k who barely ever plays, showing that no one else has surpassed him and that no progression has been made.

Rather, the opposite effect seems to be the case where the game has stagnated enough such that the majority of players have gotten worse. Looking at your recent matches, you're no exception. Neither am I. Is the game dead? No, and I won't say that it is. But to assert that the popularity of the game has risen or remained static is such a deviation from reality that I'm slightly concerned that you still feel this way. Melee is a diminishing game, both in popularity and in the competitive scene.

Anyone who says that Marth should not be higher than sheik has never played in the top 8 of an MLG event or is named Mew2King. Marth has statistically and competitively proven himself to be the best in the game over and over, and to deny so is a clear act of ignorance against easily obtainable and clearly presentable data.

pro reply ftw lol,

melee is diminishing but thats not stopping people from getting better its just slowing it down a lot.

the game lost its o wow a cool fighting game when brawl came out, the serious melee players tried it and came back, the less advance/p4f people switch to it.

we lost most of the pros/amazing players, so instead of the people at tournaments top 8 always getting top 8 we have people who switch a lot, that either means closer gaps or more luck is happening instead of skill.

also the population problem is crazy, i know that arkansas has 5 smashers left that play melee all the rest play brawl

and when we go to states with more population we don't get to far in tournaments but we still do alright.

the skill gap in arkansas is just to close and none of us are getting much better.

 

[MaNg0]

Socal has me

^_^

edit - puff isnt high tier -_-

 

[Deleted member]

I will ask the SBR to move the melee tier list voting and discussion threads to the MBR so it can be publicly viewable. No guarantees though. Hold your breath.

 

[KishPrime]

Whose idea was it to call this the final tier list, by the way? I imagine it was Mow b/c he has this thing where he likes to assert with absolute certainty that Melee is dead when of course it clearly isn't.

But that should be changed. Once the SBR-M is up and running I'm sure in a year or so there will be changes that need to be made, a lot of people that still play have problems with Marth being higher than Sheik.

Apparently a ton of people have problems with the bottom half of the list too so I'm just saying, not a final list.

It was my idea, and I'll stand by it. There are not enough new players playing the game to drive the metagame any further. Contrary to what people may think, this is required. That's why 95% of players in their first tournament don't win a set. Their metagame is undeveloped due to a limited set of people that they play against. They may even play as an awesome Fox, then lose to a Yoshi who knows the Fox-Yoshi matchup better.

In the current scene, there is the same situation. There is not enough representation of characters by top players to advance the metagame any further. With less players, less time is invested into every character on average, especially mid-to-low tiers. Without time invested in lower tiers, less can be known about the overall ability of the top tiers. Individual matchups may advance, but at the expense of overall game knowledge. Additionally, without an influx of new players, creativity is lost, and the metagame stagnates because the "same old" players will continue to be strong or weak against the "same old" tactics. I remember being pointed to a video about "New Peach Tactics" a few months ago that was probably three years too late, but the author thought they were new because of the exact reasons I have outlined.

It doesn't mean the game is dead, but the peak of the game in terms of the diversity, number, and commitment of its players has unarguably passed. As for the SBR-M, I probably need to open an application topic. I'll think about it this weekend. The old blood isn't doing much back there, so we might as well get some new blood in.

 

[handsockpuppet]

but what if more players come? I bet a lot of Brawl players will eventually move over. you can't say Brawl has that many players either, because many are playing melee. this come even more into play when you think about the new hoard of scrubs in Brawl. there are certain, more popular characters which are disrupting the tier list. and then take this into account: the better of the new scrubs in Brawl are coming to Melee. I don't know about anybody else, but the Roy boards are as active as ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Smash as a whole is dying.

Anyways who wants to help me bake a Smash Funeral Cake?

 

[JonaDiaper]

^^ lol yo youve seen the tourney going down on the 7th in NY right?

 

[Dark Hart]

^^ lol yo youve seen the tourney going down on the 7th in NY right?

As much as I disagree with KK, that reply doesn't prove anything.

"Smash isn't dieing since there's a tournament in March near me."

Yea, good job.


As for that application for the SBR-M, count me in!

 

[JonaDiaper]

lmao do you know whos going to that thing son?

mango, pc,m2k, cort,azen,chu,kdj chillin umm probly more..melee is coming back kid

 

[Dark Hart]

lmao do you know whos going to that thing son?

mango, pc,m2k, cort,azen,chu,kdj chillin umm probly more..melee is coming back kid

Yea, I do know who's going. I was thinking about going myself. (Parents don't want me traveling until summer johns...) So, some old smashers are coming back to play. That doesn't prove anything.

 

[JonaDiaper]

it proves exactly what i said and disproves what you said.

that "melee is dying"

this is a local bi-weekly that turned into a national tourney. sooo its dying?

 

[pockyD]

i think that the fact that people are flying cross-country for a "biweekly" due to the lack of legitimate large tournaments to travel for does indeed say something

melee is too good though

 

[Vts]

As much as I disagree with KKK

as do i, people need to start inviting friends more often as party game then ask if they want to get better then slowly help them learn!

 

[Dark Hart]

@ Jona:

Because you've only provided me with one example.

Over here, me an a friend were going to host a local Melee tourney. We got a little interest, enough interest for us at the time. (about 20 people) But, the second he announced that Brawl+ was being added to the tourney, it's projected attendance doubled.

Also, Alukard was planing on having that tournament be more than a local bi-weekly. Once they got Mango, it was in the books. Yet tell me how many people actually show up to it. Please. Just ask Alukard on the 7th and PM is to me. How big is this, really? Atl No., close Canadians, and 5 people from WC.

Not to mention, just because there's a larger than average tourney doesn't mean that Smash isn't dieing.


edit: And I know I said I disagree with KK, I'm just playing devil advocate.

 

[JonaDiaper]

people only like brawl because its easy..melee players went to it to make a quick buck..
now they can see how stupid it is and want whats reallly good.

just because i gave one example doesnt mean there wont be more in the future.
i honestly think the only reason melee seems like its dying is because MLG dropped it for a scrubby game.

if MLG picks it back up, it will be more alive then ever.

 

[Vulcan55]

So if I'm getting better, and all the pros are getting worse, eventually I'll be the best!
Thanks Umbreon!

 

[KevinM]

I'm so close to closing this for all the stupid being spat in the last few posts.

 

[Deleted member]

whether you do or not will not change the finality of the list, it will just make people bitter when they want to comment to it and are unable to.

by all means, go for it.

 

[JonaDiaper]

lol nah its definitely not final, once mango starts to travel and ****, puff is gonna be top lol

but seriously, as long as people still play this game, nothing can be final.

 

[Deleted member]

as long as the game is not surpassing the previously known highest levels of play, the tier list can only portray an inferior metagame.

like fox might be the best character now since all the best marth players quit. What would that prove in a tier list?

even if a new tier list is made, it will not be made by the SBR. Unless it is made by the MBR members once new blood is added, but even then it would only be done so they feel important.

 

[JonaDiaper]

well the previously known highest level has been surpassed a few times..ken was once at the top, so was pc, and i can imagine someone else i forgot.. as of now its just m2k..and when someone beats him they will have surpassed everything before him.

mango is probably the closest with puff. but then theres pc again with fox. kdj was once considered the best right? maybe he has a shot at m2k also with sheik. people cant get worse as long as the top is still there (m2k) like i said eventually someone will beat him..hopefully not with marth.

when i begin to look at this, it isnt really about a character, its about the player. m2k could be number one with anyone right now i imagine, because hes just a better player. it just seems like that to me.

 

[Dark Hart]

Why does everyone think Mango is going to win with Puff?

 

[handsockpuppet]

There's people playing Melee and getting better, so how can it not surpass the "peak"? sure some people who mained certain characters quit, but then again, many people quit during Melee's "peak", and that didn't ruin the tier list. You mods can always regard this as the true tier list, but somewhere between now and the 7 more years until SSB4 come out, I would give another tier list a shot.

 

[Dark Hart]

I know I'll be playing Melee for the next 7 years.

 

[KevinM]

Don't worry Umbreon just feels the need to flaunt his **** around when in truth he doesn't know much of what he's talking about.

He doesn't pay attention to the melee scene and calls it dying when multiple high level players are coming back into the fold saying they missed the game.

People calling Alucard's thing a Bi-weekly are incorrect, its just a normal tournament.

Think about that a tournament with only two weeks notice has 70 plus confirmed as well as national interest.

Bullheaded followed this same pattern.

As for the skill level of people going down,

Cactuar and M2k a dominating melee team were beaten by Darc and Dazwa in teams, there were numerous upsets in brackets the reason being?

People are getting BETTER.

Umbreon stop spouting nonsense.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't worry Umbreon just feels the need to flaunt his **** around when in truth he doesn't know much of what he's talking about.

I've been in the SBR and played with many of the best players in the world since 2003. Sorry, I can't take you seriously since you didn't help make the tier list, nor were you any level of threat in the actual game.

* = Melee tournaments.

Data is a bitch.

 

[Cosmo!]

I've been in the SBR and played with many of the best players in the world since 2003. Sorry, I can't take you seriously since you didn't help make the tier list, nor were you any level of threat in the actual game.

* = Melee tournaments.

Data is a bitch.

if you're not gonna at the tournament threads idk why make a post like that

first thing I notice, the third tournament in that list is melee / 64 only and you didn't mark it. good job. how many others did you miss?

 

[Cosmo!]

actually I went through and checked just to see how accurate that was

check this out suckkas

 

[handsockpuppet]

That data does not prove Melee is going downhill. that simply proves there are more Brawl scrubmatches around.

EDIT: please excuse Cosmo's double post, for he just owned you.

 

[DrewB008]

being in the sbr since 2003 is not evidence that you know what youre talking about in 2009

that combined with the fact that ive never heard of umbreon mow being anything more than a mediocre zelda/mewtwo player confuses me as to why he is being so arrogant

 

[Razor]

another thing about melee, small smashfests are often NOT posted on the boards bc a lot of the players have consistent friends they can call or contact just to play with for a couple hours. a lot of veterans know their own area and don't need to make threads to find ppl to play with.

i don't mind that this is the final tier list, but i think it's really weak for the back roomers to act like this. they act like melee is a sinking ship. it's STILL developing with new players and new ideas. brawl may be the latest version of smash, but i don't see why the b-roomers can't treat both games with respect. especially since melee is widely considered a much better tournament/high level/longer lasting game.

 

[JBM falcon08]

melee isn't a dying game, its the fact its facing a game that is new, and attracts the new gen of gamers. also the learning curve for brawl at a competitive level(low level) is lower than melee so of course your gonna have brawl be the more popular game to those who haven't seen combos/entertainment that melee provides moreso than brawl. this is known as the new generation of "brawlers".

 

[Binx]

Its just another age bracket, younger (and lazier kids, who are more impressed by graphics) people are attracted to brawl because the newest generation of gamers aren't used to actually learning anything to play a game, the idea of practicing to be good is going out the window, simple things like turning around before you jump, or timing recoveries were thrown out in the vein of this new anti-gamer philosophy. Games were so **** hard when I first started playing, you had to practically memorize every level to even beat a game back when I was like 8.

When beating a game took skill. I admit when playing a one player game I enjoy this new transition (assuming it is fun, entertaining, and has a good story) but when trying to play a fighter (which brawl is not) I prefer some level of skill be involved in accurately timing and aiming my attacks (which brawl provides on a much simpler and less satisfying level for me than Melee)

The older generation 20 somethings will more than likely stick with melee, or come to it eventually if they are shown how good of a game it can be. Same with younger players who were already good at Melee, I figure most people will be bored of brawl in a year or 2 and they will make ssb4, I'm positive that ssb4 will be similar to Brawl though.

 

[Deleted member]

melee isn't a dying game, its the fact its facing a game that is new, and attracts the new gen of gamers. also the learning curve for brawl at a competitive level(low level) is lower than melee so of course your gonna have brawl be the more popular game to those who haven't seen combos/entertainment that melee provides moreso than brawl. this is known as the new generation of "brawlers".

I think you're right. I wish Brawl had a higher learning curve, I really do.

if we really have that many dedicated melee players hanging around, how about we do a few large-scale melee tournaments? Most of the dedicated Melee players seem to be PA/NJ based, so starting here might be good.

 

[handsockpuppet]

I hate noobs who like brawl for 6 stupid reasons

1) the graphics are better. seriously guys, it still sucks. play Xbox360 and the PS3 if you need graphics.
2) The music is better. many stages, especially those that are usable for tourneys, don't have the best music anyway. buy your favorite songs, and plug in your iPod or Zune while playing Melee.
3) more characters. If all you needed were characters, play one of those arcade games that have like 100 characters. besides, cutting Roy and Dr. Mario for Olimar and ROB shows that the characters aren't worth it.
4) Wifi. the Wifi sucks. "with anyone" is against 3 other people with all items on. and "with frends" only works if they're in your state, but since Brawl has no tech skill whatsoever, just play a computer. it may sound harsh, but I never had the excited feeling on Brawl's wifi as I do when somebody talks about the possibility of wifi on Melee.
5) Stage Builder. the only thing it was good for is if you wanted to recreate one of the many great stages Brawl cut out, or if you wanted a humongous stage with spikes and dropping blocks.
6) SSE. the funnest part of the SSB series is multiplayer, hands down. the SSE made fighting repetitive and the bosses sucked. plus the story was terrible, 60% of it was the stupid maze, and you couldn't play as your favorite character for a lot of it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i loved the sse story, I didn't even play it I just watch the cutscenes on youtube.

And I respect mow as a poster more than anyone else on these forums. Everything he said always made sense and was just mad intelligent.

Except when he said that ness's yyg is completely useless.

 

[tickytoc]

Most of the dedicated Melee players seem to be PA/NJ based, so starting here might be good.

there is a good melee base in california too. its just southern california is a ***** to drive to wherever you live

 

[JonaDiaper]

yea melee is like biggest in the tri-state and california.

 

[Deleted member]

Except when he said that ness's yyg is completely useless.

if you trust your own conclusions, you should have no need to refer to mine. thats why I typically stick to mine as well.

I played melee ness a lot, I never found application an for high level play past embarrassing the opponent.