ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Just so you know, Chudat beat Eggm last time they met in tournament.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273518
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273518
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White_Mike
Smash Lord
Like I said, specific matches don't prove anything.
I just did it to show that anyone could do it.
Silent Spectre can beat Lucky and he has, so if I pull up a set when he does, does that mean that Falcon beats Fox?
I just did it to show that anyone could do it.
Silent Spectre can beat Lucky and he has, so if I pull up a set when he does, does that mean that Falcon beats Fox?
White_Mike, shine is good in that MU, but the ICs can get around almost any technique including shine spam, aerial spam, smash spam, whatever. If a shine hits, thats good news for fox, but I could as easily say "all the ICs have to do is grab it *****"
It is hard for both of them to get their best moves in whenever they are each defending against it.
It is hard for both of them to get their best moves in whenever they are each defending against it.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Chu in his prime went around even with PC in sets and beat KDJ most of the time. More recently I think he's even in sets with jman and has lost to a few other foxes, but he's not really in his prime anymore. I think Fly sometimes beating Lucky (to be honest I don't really know their record) and Wobbles usually beating Forward are just more examples of Fox not ****** ICs when the players are at the same skill level.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
That's true, but I would say that it's a lot easier for fox to hit a shine than for the IC's to get a grab. Fox has a lot of options that he can do against IC's and he can pressure them very easily while IC's really rely on grabs in the matchup.
You can't pull up one specific set and use that as proof for a character beating another character, especially when player skill is involved.
This is a tier list based on characters.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
But you said if Fox knows how to shine correctly, ICs have no chance. I showed you that they have a chance, that's all.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
I guess you took me a little too literally, or I wasn't careful with my words.
I just think fox beats IC's, bad.
>.>;
I just think fox beats IC's, bad.
>.>;
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
If Fox beat ICs, bad, why are there so many instances of good ICs doing well against good Foxes? This isn't just citing single matches; Chu did consistently well against the best Fox players in the world, and other good IC players are usually evenish against the good Fox players in their region.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
Well that was a while ago and a lot of IC's old tricks don't work as well now.
Plus Fox has evolved so much since then while Ice Climbers haven't changed one bit.
From what I've seen, IC's usually lose to Fox players but I don't really follow IC players and their performances.
I'm just thinking about what I've seen and the two characters.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Wait what?It's because of the shine you say right? once nana is gone it really doesn't work as well and popo and still grab **** him, still edge gaurd him, and if anything popo is now faster but weaker without nana.
are can't say ____ ***** ice climbers just because they can **** nana to death if so ice climbers **** themselfs beause nnana gets herself killed a lot. she is only half of the match-up and good ice climbers have amazing sopo.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
Well without shine, fox can still easily pressure them with nair and up throw up air works pretty **** well on Ice Climbers.
A lot of characters can grab **** and edgeguard fox, doesn't mean they're going to beat him.
A lot of characters can grab **** and edgeguard fox, doesn't mean they're going to beat him.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I said he changed your quote.
its funny cuz you let it bother you. it was dumb to begin with, shake it off champ. its not even worth getting annoyed.
im believing what I read, not what you or him said.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
ummm carefully reread that till you fully understand what you posted. fox can pressure everyone with that and the ice climbers aren't like fighting the the other chain throwers when an ice climber grabs you they make less mistakes because most ice climbers train a lot on their chain throws dair d-throw is habit and I rarly chain throw we don't mess up as much as other people chain throw wise. we are like puff on the ground your grabs are her rests with just as many if not more set-ups but harder to punish a missed grab than a missed rest.
PB&J
Smash Hero
old tricks..people still fall for simple icy stuff and they are one of the few characters that has evolved..just because people got i bit more technical with fox doesnt make this match up bad for icys ..people in as a whole are not good vs icys but i think icys are still being figured out at the same time and have alot of room to grow.
i think falco vs icys is even but chu dat thinks that its there second worse match up..i dont see how he can think that at first then im like oh..its a match up thing these days..more and more you are starting to see people who are bad at certain match ups and good at the others.
chu thinks falco ***** icys and i love that match up. uber ice last october beat lamchops's in 2 sets and then beat shiz's falco forcing him to go fox. hozart a retired icy player never lost to shiz's falco either. me..little ol me, beat zhu's falco at pats house and then he switched to fox and beat me..while in the meantime chu dat thinks this is the second worse match up for them next to peach.
if one person doesnt know the match up it doest mean that character gets *****..its the player
fox does have an advantage on icys..(sorry for saying its even) but i think its a slight advantage and icy's can win the match up with alot of mix ups.
i still think falcon vs icys are even though and i think vs shiek..i use to think they had a n advantage vs her then her tilts starting getting annoying and if she spaces really good she can win.
it just seems to me that the community has along way to go to make a final tier list..the meta game didnt change that much for every character. and i think alot of characters still have alot of potential but these days people just want to play the ones who are popular
Wolfey Kong
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 11
I've been playing Marth for a while and kept getting ***** by Samus, until I went over to Sheik a bit. Found that the only way I could possibly beat this guy was just beating the hell outa him, making it impossible for him to ever get distance. Problem was that I couldn't ever make him come over to me with Marth, but with Sheik I was able to needle him and make him want to get closer. At the same time it was the only char i really found fast enough and with enough paste to get on with those tacts. Also, I knew I was better at him in all ways concerning wavedashing and shffling in close combat. What he did was simply trading %, and when I had enough % to get flying away he just hit me and then kept sending missiles etc. until I died.
Anyone had the same experience? And if so, do you know any other specific way to overcome this kind of ****ty way of playing? Cause at a point it really felt hopeless. He just continued with this freaking cheap tacts.
Anyone had the same experience? And if so, do you know any other specific way to overcome this kind of ****ty way of playing? Cause at a point it really felt hopeless. He just continued with this freaking cheap tacts.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
match-ups are largely based on the player I argee. Marth seems like one of the most possible match-ups for pichu and puff doesn't seem that bad also in truth my marth wins/loses at the same ratio as of my pichu vs the same players. Even if I play just as much as pichu anymore.
Maybe it's because I play as everyone in the same basic rule, I never truely aim for anything, but if I can take a stock when they are are off the edge i'll kill them but my goal has never been to knock them off the stage or kkill them I take only the opening I see and rarly create them. I rarly think oh i'm going to chain throw them and try to get a grab. I find this better than trying to get a grab.
Maybe it's because I play as everyone in the same basic rule, I never truely aim for anything, but if I can take a stock when they are are off the edge i'll kill them but my goal has never been to knock them off the stage or kkill them I take only the opening I see and rarly create them. I rarly think oh i'm going to chain throw them and try to get a grab. I find this better than trying to get a grab.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
I read that as **** and it made me LOL irl.
Well I'm glad to see that you can admit that fox has the advantage, especially seeing as all these falco players switched to fox just to beat IC's.
Dr. PP also beast Chu at pound but I guess Chu just hates the match up. I think Falco has an advantage but if anything its minimal like 55-45 or even so whatever.
I think fox ic's is at least 60-40 but probably 65-35.
IC's CAN beat fox but so can Falcon and a lot of Falcon players do beat Fox because they just overrun them with ****, Hax has beaten jman a lot recently and SS has beaten Lucky a good amount of times, but fox still ***** that matchup.
I went Ice Climbers at a tournament last summer because I knew I couldn't win with sheik and I got really far just on IC bull**** against people that didn't know the match up.
A fox player not knowing IC's and the matchup will have a really hard time and thats usually when IC's can win IMO. But when a fox knows Ice Climbers and knows what t do, I think it's really unlikely that the IC's will win unless the player is a lot better.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i know these were just friendlies, but ive 3 stocked chu with my sheik in my melee prime twice before (out of like 3-4 total games) by mostly just spacing forward airs and doing stuff like needle -> fair from platforms
pushes them too far back to do anything really. And Nana is too easy to 0-death
pushes them too far back to do anything really. And Nana is too easy to 0-death
White_Mike
Smash Lord
PB&J
Smash Hero
60-40 for fox vs icy's..thats a big 10 percent. at the most its 55 45 but i even doubt that..icy's can do so much stuff to fox its ridiculous and fox and do stuff to them..i know i play fox too.
and on m2k ****** chu with shiek..please dont say because your m2k because chu dat is chu dat and was on top just like m2k was before..and didnt jman beat hax like 2 weeks ago when lambchops won the whole tourny..fox is the best but people hate to admit certain characters give him a tough time or go close to even with him..
m2k knows nothing about falco vs icys but he can give us some input on the fox icys match up even though i think its not one of his best match ups
and on m2k ****** chu with shiek..please dont say because your m2k because chu dat is chu dat and was on top just like m2k was before..and didnt jman beat hax like 2 weeks ago when lambchops won the whole tourny..fox is the best but people hate to admit certain characters give him a tough time or go close to even with him..
m2k knows nothing about falco vs icys but he can give us some input on the fox icys match up even though i think its not one of his best match ups
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You really shouldn't be letting Sheik tilt you below 60%. CC them and run up grab her while she's still in the tilt animation.
PB&J
Smash Hero
it just gets annoying..i know how to punish it..but its still frustrates me at times
White_Mike
Smash Lord
I was actually kidding when I said because you're m2k lol.
I think that the IC's both have to be present to really **** fox and he is the best at getting rid of Nana soooo.
I think that the IC's both have to be present to really **** fox and he is the best at getting rid of Nana soooo.
PB&J
Smash Hero
peach is the best at getting rid of nana i think..some of those shine stuff shouldnt work if u pay attention to your nana,but maybe thats me..peach can do like one dsmash to dash attack by the ledge and nana dies
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Shine ad infinitum ****'s solo Nana like nothing else. Both PBnJ and Caucasian Mike should debate better or shut up.
White_Mike
Smash Lord
Edit: :-x
Wo1f
Smash Apprentice
How is Ganon higher than Roy or Link? And how is Fox barely higher than Marth?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
roy and link are trash
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Fox > cast
Ganon > everyone below him
ranmaru
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 13,297
- Switch FC
- SW-0654 7794 0698
Well I'm not playing a character for him being popular [I mean I am not the whole community but I'm sure there are SOME People who play characters for a reason other than popularity, sadly most do tho :[ ]. I play him because he is my favorite... I am seriously trying to become good with him. Its tough...
Also please explain what old tricks do we fall for? Maybe I misread or forgot... I mean, I know random smashes near the edge is OMG WTF JUST HAPPENED... But I would like to be reminded. :]
also I think it is easier to fight a fox as icies than as doc. :] Although I haven't played as icies in a tournament xD I should start... I just haven't exactly practice their options so that I could use them better. :]
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The Samus player was playing correctly, cheap = good. Learn that.
As for beating it... you have disjointed hitboxes, you outprioritize the missles, learn the timing, break through them and use a combination of poking and zoning to win. Most characters have tools to just break missiles.
Now then, this isn't a match-up help thread, go to the marth boards and ask for help there, or meet up with other people from your region and ask them to give you a hand learning.
You're from long island?
Come to this thread cause I can tell you need to network with other smashers.
Marth? He was winning every national at the time, AlphaZealot actually said that marth was the only tournament viable character at that point (the reasoning is internally consistent, but his basis for tournament viable is way off-base imo).
Ganondorf is actually quite safe when l-canceled, ganon percents (percent that Ganon can kill at) is like 10%, he's got a strong gimp game, and in general has stronger high/top tier MUs.
Roy has horrible recovery, is unsafe, and literally everything can be crouch-canceled.
*inb4 Robbin talks about me against Jared's Roy.
Link is better then roy, but lacks the safety, power and gimp game of Ganon. Also, his recovery isn't that good, and tether only partially makes up for it. Oh, and top tier riems him.
Mariofan12
Smash Cadet
How did they come up with the numerical values?
gm jack
Smash Lord
The melee back room of the time each ranked the characters, and these are derivatives of the averages of these values (I think).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Shineless Fox is terrible against Ice Climbers.
Chu is NOT the IC metagame. He is really good, but so behind on the new very powerful techniques in the IC metagame.
Not even close.
Fly and Wobbles are close to what the IC metagame could be. Wobbles has insane techskill, grabs and movement. Fly has great patience, ability to get grabs, and reading ability. Unfortunately, they each lack what the other has and no "ultimate player" exists.
Ive just had enough of people using Chu as the IC metagame. I would say Fly is the best example, and Wobbles second, but no true embodiment of the metagame exists for the ICs.
Using Chu to represent the ICs is like using Isai to represent Falcon.
Not even close.
Fly and Wobbles are close to what the IC metagame could be. Wobbles has insane techskill, grabs and movement. Fly has great patience, ability to get grabs, and reading ability. Unfortunately, they each lack what the other has and no "ultimate player" exists.
Ive just had enough of people using Chu as the IC metagame. I would say Fly is the best example, and Wobbles second, but no true embodiment of the metagame exists for the ICs.
Using Chu to represent the ICs is like using Isai to represent Falcon.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I think the meta game is a combination of Chu Wobbles and Fly.
It doesnt have to rely on one person, and it really shouldnt.
Ultima falco is a combo of shiz mango zhu SW chops Pee Pee, You can give and take from all of them. I would rather have more players to pull from instead of looking for the m2k=marth. Then when he loses to a puff, the matchup becomes Puff>marth(not making a judgement)
It doesnt have to rely on one person, and it really shouldnt.
Ultima falco is a combo of shiz mango zhu SW chops Pee Pee, You can give and take from all of them. I would rather have more players to pull from instead of looking for the m2k=marth. Then when he loses to a puff, the matchup becomes Puff>marth(not making a judgement)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Chu is a better example than Wobbles or Fly. He made better use of their entire moveset and his movement was much better than either of them. Wobbles makes really good reads and capitalizes on grabs really well, Fly does the same but with a more defensive playstyle. Being able to capitalize on grabs is really objective though, and when Chu wobbled I would say he was the closest to IC's metagame that we have seen.
I agree with Kaostar though, you really can't take one person to represent the metagame.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
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