- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
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I'm waiting for Leffen's "I told you so."
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
choknater
Smash Obsessed
man he's so smooth
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Mewtwo > Zelda
also:
i missed your posts kage. glad to see you haven't learned
also:
Obviously because top players are their own fans.I, for one, like seeing myself punch the hell out of everybody.
i missed your posts kage. glad to see you haven't learned
Fixed that for you.
Scidadle
Smash Champion
Except almost every other character in the game
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Hm? What do you mean by that?
Change the ****ing thread title jesus christ.
It's not 2010, no one wants to come on these boards and see an almost 4 year old tier list stickied at the top of the god damn page.
Even if the list is from 2010 and you don't think characters have moved change the title you ****lords
Holy **** why do I have to say this clean up your act goons
It's not 2010, no one wants to come on these boards and see an almost 4 year old tier list stickied at the top of the god damn page.
Even if the list is from 2010 and you don't think characters have moved change the title you ****lords
Holy **** why do I have to say this clean up your act goons
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Theres a 2013 list but the mods didnt sticky it so...
Comatose
Smash Apprentice
Traditionally, the tier list has been made by the backroom, so when the new one came out, after a pretty much top-playerless vote, and with untraditional tier divisions, a lot of players felt like it didnt hold the same legitimacy as this one. This is pretty much accurate as far as most players believe, but still made in 2010. Can't just rename it and pretend like its from 2013, cuz it's not.
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
there's a 2013 one? link pls
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah link pls
If this isn't the tier list everyone officially recognizes in 2013 then ****ing unsticky it.
Either it's relevant or it isn't. If it's relevant it should be the 2014 Tier list. If it isn't then I don't want to see it anymore, get it the **** off the front page. This content is almost 4 years old.
Either it's relevant or it isn't. If it's relevant it should be the 2014 Tier list. If it isn't then I don't want to see it anymore, get it the **** off the front page. This content is almost 4 years old.
.Ðempt
Certified Ponch
Someone's cranky.
I would like to see what the "2013 Tier List" is though, if such a thing exists. I'm sure it's not much different, but it would satisfy my curiosity.
I would like to see what the "2013 Tier List" is though, if such a thing exists. I'm sure it's not much different, but it would satisfy my curiosity.
Ojos de los Caballos Savajes
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 21
Is this it? http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-results-posted.336113/
Personally I like this list. Arguments could be made for the tier list to divided into more tiers, however, observing top level play, there seems to be a couple representative players for the top 8 characters. I also see that the voting was done by two pools of players, and the tier lists are identical. Such list seems to reflect the opinions of the community and the current meta-game. I have a couple of minor disagreements near the lower end of the list, but nothing major.
Personally I like this list. Arguments could be made for the tier list to divided into more tiers, however, observing top level play, there seems to be a couple representative players for the top 8 characters. I also see that the voting was done by two pools of players, and the tier lists are identical. Such list seems to reflect the opinions of the community and the current meta-game. I have a couple of minor disagreements near the lower end of the list, but nothing major.
.Ðempt
Certified Ponch
Oh yeah, I forgot about that thing. I wanted to vote but I'm bad at this game.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
varist i wanna see u posting happily some day
I'm new here so I never know when people here are just joking with each other or are actually mad about something, but I think Varist makes a good point in stickies being outdated. I am always unsure whether a sticky is really relevant because of how long ago most of them were posted. I am sure a lot of the stickies, like the ones in the character discussions, will always hold some value. However, it would be nice to get some sort of confirmation (an edit at the top of the thread perhaps) that says whether a sticky is still relevant. It is hard to determine what is good information considering how old the game is.
Not to jump on the hype train or anything but I've always thought Luigi and Yoshi had untapped potential just because Luigi is fast as **** and dominates neutral game if used properly against players with slower reactions and has an insane punishment game against a lot of the upper tiers.
Lo and behold 2 luigi players do serious work at Pound V5 or whatever ******** name they called it
Then someone told me M2K almost got eliminated from Evo by a Yoshi player early on in the tournament.
I ****ing knew Yoshi was a god damn monster look at the **** that's possible.
These fast ****ing low tiers have limited options but they can still wreck your ****. I would fear a good yoshi over slow ass Mewtwo, slow ass Zelda, slow ass Link for example. And Luigi is definitely better than Mario come the **** on guys we have Mario figured out his grabs are ****ty and he can kill you with smashes and has little juggle combos that's just how he works meanwhile Luigi is all over the ****ing place
This tier list so meaningless to me now
Lo and behold 2 luigi players do serious work at Pound V5 or whatever ******** name they called it
Then someone told me M2K almost got eliminated from Evo by a Yoshi player early on in the tournament.
I ****ing knew Yoshi was a god damn monster look at the **** that's possible.
These fast ****ing low tiers have limited options but they can still wreck your ****. I would fear a good yoshi over slow ass Mewtwo, slow ass Zelda, slow ass Link for example. And Luigi is definitely better than Mario come the **** on guys we have Mario figured out his grabs are ****ty and he can kill you with smashes and has little juggle combos that's just how he works meanwhile Luigi is all over the ****ing place
This tier list so meaningless to me now
Bones0
Smash Legend
What took ya so long?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Luigi isn't that bad except vs Sheik. He's probably better than Samus & Mario at least.
There's always like one decent Yoshi player who uses the character's slanted ratchet design to do cool stuff. So I guess he should be in mid tier.
I dunno if Link should be mid tier.
Ganon is overrated and probably as good as Mario (read: not that good, but still in mid).
/theusual
There's always like one decent Yoshi player who uses the character's slanted ratchet design to do cool stuff. So I guess he should be in mid tier.
I dunno if Link should be mid tier.
Ganon is overrated and probably as good as Mario (read: not that good, but still in mid).
/theusual
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
someone mention the zelda/mewtwo matchup?
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
there are more then one decent yoshi
ganon should drop down below samus and pika and luigi should then be moved above ganon
and pika should be one spot below doc
ganon should drop down below samus and pika and luigi should then be moved above ganon
and pika should be one spot below doc
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
There is actually a ton of mid-level Yoshi players coming up.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ganon isn't dead yet, you fools!! Definitely better than Luigi at least.
The evidence I see is that Ganon is harder to master than all the other mid tiers, why? Because people still do back jump Fair all day thinking it'll work.
The evidence I see is that Ganon is harder to master than all the other mid tiers, why? Because people still do back jump Fair all day thinking it'll work.
Ojos de los Caballos Savajes
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 21
Yeah, I think Luigi is better than Samus and Ganon. I have trouble figuring out why he is a bad character. His recovery is bad. Is that the deal breaker?
Also, is everyone okay with DK's position? He was considered mid tier at some point, like when Bum was tearing it up. It seems he could be placed above Link. He has a strong grab game, Uair shenanigans, and has actual KO moves with setups that lead to them. He just seems to have more of a chance at the big match ups than Link does. Especially Fox, and Falcon. Of course, they're not in his favor in the very least, but he has like an explosive combo game. The trouble is getting it started. Link has to grind it out more. And just has no hope for the attrition battle over all. It seems like DK would have a better chance at pulling of wins at top level is all.
I think Young Link is better than DK, though. He has some very solid high tier match ups. (Puff, IC's, Peach). He's like a specialty counter pick character... He's kind of weird to discuss as a stand alone character.
Also, I believe Mew2 is better than Roy. Neither have very good KO potential, but the big difference is Roy just gets edge guarded too hard. Mew2 has a great recovery and that keeps him in the game longer. Mew2 is also full of gimmicks, and tricks.
I'm discussing this list btw.
I
V
http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-results-posted.336113/
Also, is everyone okay with DK's position? He was considered mid tier at some point, like when Bum was tearing it up. It seems he could be placed above Link. He has a strong grab game, Uair shenanigans, and has actual KO moves with setups that lead to them. He just seems to have more of a chance at the big match ups than Link does. Especially Fox, and Falcon. Of course, they're not in his favor in the very least, but he has like an explosive combo game. The trouble is getting it started. Link has to grind it out more. And just has no hope for the attrition battle over all. It seems like DK would have a better chance at pulling of wins at top level is all.
I think Young Link is better than DK, though. He has some very solid high tier match ups. (Puff, IC's, Peach). He's like a specialty counter pick character... He's kind of weird to discuss as a stand alone character.
Also, I believe Mew2 is better than Roy. Neither have very good KO potential, but the big difference is Roy just gets edge guarded too hard. Mew2 has a great recovery and that keeps him in the game longer. Mew2 is also full of gimmicks, and tricks.
I'm discussing this list btw.
I
V
http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-results-posted.336113/
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's even worse >_< lol.
Upke
Smash Journeyman
@Varist
No Yoshi took a set off M2K at EVO. What happened was aMSa took a game off him (game two on BF if I'm not mistaken) with Yoshi, against his Sheik no less. An isolated incident like this doesn't prove much, because M2K could have been underestimating the player or the character, but I do firmly believe that Yoshi will only get better with time because of the community's increasing overall tech skill.
No Yoshi took a set off M2K at EVO. What happened was aMSa took a game off him (game two on BF if I'm not mistaken) with Yoshi, against his Sheik no less. An isolated incident like this doesn't prove much, because M2K could have been underestimating the player or the character, but I do firmly believe that Yoshi will only get better with time because of the community's increasing overall tech skill.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
its funny b/c i asked m2k about amsa yesterday, he said that amsa's training partner is a sheik so he happens to be very good vs sheik. m2k says he it was pretty easy when he used fox against him. That being said he did say amsa was a good player
Upke
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, he definitely deserves some credit, because he had to fight a lot more than just Sheiks to get to where he did in placings.
Also, the fact that the Sheik player is named Sheik is still just super silly to me.
Also, the fact that the Sheik player is named Sheik is still just super silly to me.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
I am not saying he didn't deserve credit or anything, just stating what m2k told me about amsa. I personally am a big fan of all good yoshi's, my favorite character to watch.
edit: Also not saying m2k is disrespecting him either, it was clear m2k thinks of him as a good player.
edit: Also not saying m2k is disrespecting him either, it was clear m2k thinks of him as a good player.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
perhaps no fair is a good fair
how unfair
how unfair
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Surprisingly, I find myself agreeing with Kage on this. Ganon reminds me of Marth in their limited OoS options against the faster/better characters.
Still think Luigi is better though obviously.
Max?
Smash Champion
Kage just accept the fact that Ganon is terrible and that you're just ****ing great at this game. Ganon blows
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i can see ganon being worse than the marios lol
Speed is just the best quality to have in this game because you will win the neutral game off of it every time if you use it properly.
This is why Yoshi and Luigi are better than your run of the mill mid tier.
Yoshi is better than DK. He's better than Mewtwo. He's better than Zelda. His combo game and defensive game are better than Roy's and although Roy's neutral game against most characters is better than Yoshi's, Yoshi still has a great neutral game. I would actually say it's an unfair comparison because Roy's neutral game is incredible compared to most of the roster so it sounds misleading to look at Yoshi's neutral game as a negative when comparing it to Roy's.
I would literally just pluck Yoshi out of his tier and order it like this:
Dr Mario
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Ganondorf
Mario
Yoshi
You could argue Luigi is closer to Ganondorf's potential than he is to Pikachu's but he's so much faster he seems more comfortable next to Pikachu.
The sad thing is a lot of people are going to think Luigi's good just because "oh **** placings" and then when the Luigis don't place super well at the next big tournament they're going to forget about him.
But Luigi has a great combo game, a great neutral game, and a workable defensive game. He just has ****ty range. His recovery is a non-issue because aside from the few recoveries in this game that are strong enough to allow for mixups, most recoveries rely on your opponent not ****ing up his job rather than you doing yours really well.
This is why Yoshi and Luigi are better than your run of the mill mid tier.
Yoshi is better than DK. He's better than Mewtwo. He's better than Zelda. His combo game and defensive game are better than Roy's and although Roy's neutral game against most characters is better than Yoshi's, Yoshi still has a great neutral game. I would actually say it's an unfair comparison because Roy's neutral game is incredible compared to most of the roster so it sounds misleading to look at Yoshi's neutral game as a negative when comparing it to Roy's.
I would literally just pluck Yoshi out of his tier and order it like this:
Dr Mario
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Ganondorf
Mario
Yoshi
You could argue Luigi is closer to Ganondorf's potential than he is to Pikachu's but he's so much faster he seems more comfortable next to Pikachu.
The sad thing is a lot of people are going to think Luigi's good just because "oh **** placings" and then when the Luigis don't place super well at the next big tournament they're going to forget about him.
But Luigi has a great combo game, a great neutral game, and a workable defensive game. He just has ****ty range. His recovery is a non-issue because aside from the few recoveries in this game that are strong enough to allow for mixups, most recoveries rely on your opponent not ****ing up his job rather than you doing yours really well.
Bones0
Smash Legend
This isn't true AT ALL. If it were, you would see Falcon and Fox dominating neutral game vs. everyone else. Obviously speed is a huge factor in determining neutral game potential, but there are plenty of others such as projectiles, range, priority, risk/safety with trades, moves having good/bad hitboxes for approaching/zoning, moves having good startup/low lag, and tons of others.
While Falcon and Fox have top movement speeds to work with (both horizontally and vertically), Falcon suffers from a lack of useful approaches. His aerials either take too long to come out or are easily CCed. His ground moves are trash in general, but are especially bad when trying to approach with them (small WD compounds the issue). Raptor Boost is the only special he could conceivably approach with, and it's certainly not a reliable one. Fox has much better moves for approaching (nair is quick with decent followups at a variety of percents, dair beats CCs), but they all have awful priority and his low weight combined with his high gravity make him super susceptible to trades.
Peach is definitely a slow character, both horizontally and vertically, but she makes up for this with a good projectile and good zoning/trading tactics. You can't just ignore what happens after neutral if you want to analyze the game. Fox may beat her in the neutral game 2/3 times, but she doesn't get punished very hard and punishes Fox super hard for a single mistake, so only winning the neutral game 1/3rd of the time is plenty. Ganon is definitely in the camp of not getting punished hard and punishing hard when he gets his turn. It's not like anyone thinks Ganon is amazing in the neutral game, and I'm sure Kage will attest to that. The question is whether all of Ganon's other good traits outweigh his deplorable speed.
Can he easily chase people onto plats? No, but his uair sure is amazing and screwing people over if they try to platform camp. Can he easily weave in and out of other characters' ranges? No, but he can hold his own zone better than almost any character, which gives him a really good chokepoint game. Zoning and earning more per hit than your opponent is the only way slower characters can keep up with faster characters in this game (and probably others tbh), so if Ganon was not built that way, I could totally see why you'd attribute his badness to being slow. Kirby is a good example of a character that is slow and bad. Is he bad because he is slow? Well, if he was faster, he would definitely be better, but he'd also be a lot better if he stayed slow and instead was able to zone like crazy. His low weight, poor recovery, and weak punishes are just as much to blame for his awfulness, if not more than his lack of speed.
I'm not saying I think Ganon is amazing and no one realizes it. I just think he's vastly underrated because people want to Theory Bros. their way around good zoning with dumb generalizations like "fast characters can win the neutral game every time if they use it properly". That's just... NOT true. You don't need to look any further than Armada's Peach to realize slow characters can be just as deadly as fast ones as a result of all of their other traits and the effect those traits have on the game.
I stopped reading here. Nowhere did I even mention the phrase dash speed. I said speed. Speed means falling speed, air speed, ground speed, attack speed, animation speeds like jumping and l-canceling, auto canceling, and so on. Being slow in an area is bad. Being fast is always good.
Therefore I will assume whatever the rest of that post was is wrong or masturbatory because you aren't making any points against a strawman.
Sometimes I wonder about you Bones.