Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Varist]

Melee still has a long way to go before we understand the game well enough to make mind games/reading comprehension as unimportant as you are making it out to be, Varist.

I'm sad that this is what you got out of my posts because the opposite is true.

@Habefiet continuing to misrepresent things I say doesn't increase the quality of the discussion.

 

[MountainGoat]

You should try actually reading the post before you completely reject it. I don't always agree with bones but he makes some good points.

 

[Papa+Stone]

I'll bring the TP, cause you're about to get **** on.

Seriously though, are you not aware that Kage is the best Ganon main on the planet? If you're gunna MM him for the lulz, that's one thing, but to MM him to prove a point that you aren't going to prove for ****, is another.

I agree with Grim on this whole "debate". We have yet to see characters perfectly mastered by anyone, and we more than likely never will. The game at a higher level is more focused on its mental aspect rather than it's technical one. Match-ups matter less, and less at a higher level of play.

A ganon scrub is a ganon scrub, no excuses. Plus im betting hes poor so if anything the MMs wont be worth **** to ME. I can name several times when kage has gotten destroyed in a match, this will be no different

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm sad that this is what you got out of my posts because the opposite is true.

@Habefiet continuing to misrepresent things I say doesn't increase the quality of the discussion.

Perhaps if everyone is strawmanning and misrepresenting what you say
the problem isn't 'everyone else misrepresenting' but rather 'you being **** at explaining' lol

It seemed to me like your reasoning for thinking that Ganon is bad stemmed from
"he loses the neutral game cause he's slow"
correct?
slow characters make up for their lack of speed by abusing mind games, or at the very least, Ganon does
correct?
so where exactly am I missing the point when I say that you're undervaluing the importance of mind games?

 

[Habefiet]

I'm sad that this is what you got out of my posts because the opposite is true.

@Habefiet continuing to misrepresent things I say doesn't increase the quality of the discussion.

That wasn't me trying to deliberately misinterpret your words, that was my genuine interpretation of your statement. Please correct me.

Tell me, when roughly half a dozen in a given discussion appear to you to be distorting or misunderstanding your words, does the possibility never once occur to you that--rather than every single person trying to misrepresent your point--you are simply not being a clear communicator?

EDIT: Also please record this match between Kage and Papa+Stone if it somehow goes down, I'm sure the results will be highly entertaining

 

[Grim Tuesday]

get ninja'd ***

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

EDIT: Also please record this match between Kage and Papa+Stone if it somehow goes down, I'm sure the results will be highly entertaining

Seconded

I've never seen someone get JV5 Stocked by Ganondorf before.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Thats because ganon players blow so much ass they arent capable of it

 

[Divinokage]

I'll bring the TP, cause you're about to get **** on.

Seriously though, are you not aware that Kage is the best Ganon main on the planet? If you're gunna MM him for the lulz, that's one thing, but to MM him to prove a point that you aren't going to prove for ****, is another.

I agree with Grim on this whole "debate". We have yet to see characters perfectly mastered by anyone, and we more than likely never will. The game at a higher level is more focused on its mental aspect rather than it's technical one. Match-ups matter less, and less at a higher level of play.

Well I think we can for sure say that the level is very high but the only problem with the "perfect" play mentality is that kind of play can be countered by another strategy, there's always an answer for any move that is thrown usually, unless your character is really really bad. But i think you're right about matchups mattering less at the top level.

Papa, if you really want to MM, then MM me 100$, if not then your trashtalk hold little weight.

 

[Papa+Stone]

100$? Please, Ill just ask a few of my eses around here and Ill have that money. This is going to need to be a best of 7 however, and Ill be bringing some blackup to make sure there are no loose ends. Im a little skeptical about you however, if you really have that kind of money then you wouldnt be playing poor ass ganon after all. Dont be pulling any bluffs yo

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Where's Chibo/Alex Strife? Papa+Stone vs Kage is going to be the highlight of Apex it needs to be streamed!

 

[.Ðempt]

100$? Please, Ill just ask a few of my eses around here and Ill have that money. This is going to need to be a best of 7 however, and Ill be bringing some blackup to make sure there are no loose ends. Im a little skeptical about you however, if you really have that kind of money then you wouldnt be playing poor *** ganon after all. Dont be pulling any bluffs yo

lol

Who wants to put money down on this MM not even taking place? I've got $20 that says this kid will disappear.

Seriously, kid, what makes you think that you're going to beat Kage? And what does his monetary status have anything to do with what character he plays? ROFL

Well I think we can for sure say that the level is very high but the only problem with the "perfect" play mentality is that kind of play can be countered by another strategy, there's always an answer for any move that is thrown usually, unless your character is really really bad. But i think you're right about matchups mattering less at the top level.

Forgot about wanting to divulge into this a bit.

When I say perfect play, I mean having your fundamentals, positioning, and tech skill to the point where it cannot be humanly possible to improve it. Strategy falls more-so into the mental aspect of the game, which is how you choose to use your knowledge and skill for each of those areas, respectively. Therefore, there will always be one mindset that counteracts another, as clearly we have seen with many, many players. But I agree completely that we're pretty high up there (I mean, we've only been playing the game for twelve years, afterall ), but we still have room to improve, and for the most part, we always will.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Good ill need that money to fund out battle. My father always said never to welch on bets so pay up. Here is a picture of me so you all know what I look like kage post pictures of yourself as well dempt you do too or ill find you

 

[.Ðempt]

Kk.

Spoiler

I kinda let myself go a bit, really need to smash more.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Kage looks like ganon irl

 

[Papa+Stone]

woah a hulk and a ganon what have I gotten myself into

 

[Papa+Stone]

Hulk is going to have to pay up though when I get there a bet is a bet sorry hulk

 

[.Ðempt]

Plz, that'd be dumb to bet with you. Collision ftl papa stone.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Hey hulk, I bet 40 that I dont wet myself during my match with kage and another 40 that ill take my shirt off during the last round. I feel really bad about taking all that money from kage, hes obviously poor and is playing video games to make ends meet, thats why he arrogantly challenged me to this MM. Also hulk, I bet 100 that I wont take kages money away from him when I beat him

 

[.Ðempt]

LOOOOOOL

You challenged him, brah. He accepted. You're going to get $100 taken from you if you show and I'm going to be making $40 cause you probably won't. It's cool, I'd be scared to lose $100 too, especially when it's the best Ganon main in the world I'd be losing it to.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Nope ill lose 80 dollars remember you offered me 20 if i accepted and I did. Plus who cares about the ganon player ever like im not hyped for the best link player so this point is a little uhhhh? Also im the best mario player thats ever been seen, just no one knows it yet, not even myself. What up

 

[Divinokage]

100$? Please, Ill just ask a few of my eses around here and Ill have that money. This is going to need to be a best of 7 however, and Ill be bringing some blackup to make sure there are no loose ends. Im a little skeptical about you however, if you really have that kind of money then you wouldnt be playing poor *** ganon after all. Dont be pulling any bluffs yo

I'm the master of bluffs which is exactly why I play Ganon.. lol. You have it backwards.

But... so far it sounds like you are going to back off.. your words are all over the place. lol.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Whatever man/ once I win ill be taking my winnings to help fund my MMs that I promised to a rookie and some project m scrubs, though a rookie is asian and is probably not going to want to bet so high, which as disappointing as that is, it is probably safer and smarter

 

[Papa+Stone]

Waiting for those pictures kage how am I supposed to know who you are If i dont get to look at you

 

[Divinokage]

 

[Papa+Stone]

Looking like ganon is basically a birth symbol of poverty. This is one of natures lessons, stay in college or youll look like kage and be poor

 

[.Ðempt]

Yo how about you $MM me at Apex? $50? That way I'll hella profit.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Sorry, but i dont have time to take money from small-er fries than kage

 

[.Ðempt]

The only money you're going to be taking is from the dumpster cause that's where I'm about to put you *****

 

[Papa+Stone]

Please, you couldnt put me anywhere. I weight about at least as much as 8 whole setups or more

 

[.Ðempt]

ill just bring the dumpster to you then.

Look for me @ Apex. Matt Bidwell is my name. Get the **** at me.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Ill get at you, but i wont get the **** at you. And thats a promise

 

[Varist]

That wasn't me trying to deliberately misinterpret your words, that was my genuine interpretation of your statement. Please correct me.

Tell me, when roughly half a dozen in a given discussion appear to you to be distorting or misunderstanding your words, does the possibility never once occur to you that--rather than every single person trying to misrepresent your point--you are simply not being a clear communicator?

EDIT: Also please record this match between Kage and Papa+Stone if it somehow goes down, I'm sure the results will be highly entertaining

Only a couple people are distorting my words. You seem not to know the difference between not understanding because of a communication error, and not understanding because of lack of information. I deliberately provide less information than I am able because most of the time it isn't worth my effort.

Bones is literally so dumb he's never worth arguing with and that's why I'm not sparing any of the effort to explain step by step to him why he's being a pants-on-head ******.

Perhaps if everyone is strawmanning and misrepresenting what you say
the problem isn't 'everyone else misrepresenting' but rather 'you being **** at explaining' lol

It seemed to me like your reasoning for thinking that Ganon is bad stemmed from
"he loses the neutral game cause he's slow"
correct?
slow characters make up for their lack of speed by abusing mind games, or at the very least, Ganon does
correct?
so where exactly am I missing the point when I say that you're undervaluing the importance of mind games?

But I will explain to you step-by-step because maybe there's more hope for you.

If you're legitimately asking me where you are missing the point, rather than putting so little thought into what you read that you're spewing **** all over the thread, I will tell you.

It would be wrong to outright state that Ganon loses the neutral game. I have already clarified that he can win the neutral game. The problem is that it is an uphill battle and he will not always win it. More and more frequently he will lose it to a faster character.

This is what I have repeated and what no one can seem to wrap their heads around.

Implying "Well Ganon has tricks and he can mind game the other guy so you're wrong" is an example of spewing **** out of your face. You are taking a scenario where a fast character is against a slow character, and then creating your own example where the fast character seems to be ****ing up constantly and the slow character just waltzes in and capitalizes. Obviously you're going to think you just disproved everything but what you actually did was create an argument all on your own that no one was creating and then attacked it and acted like you just said something reasonable instead of gagging on your own ****.

A slow character's bag of tricks is in most cases matched by or exceeded by a fast character's bag of tricks. You can sit at your computer and tell me about your hypothetical where Ganon wins the neutral game because you just forced him to win it. But you are wrong and I am right because in general a fast character is going to bait out his trick better and safer, and punish it quicker and more frequently. They have simple animation advantages that allow them to react to things if they do it properly. They have the luxury of more neutral options just because they are fast.

Trying to argue with that point is fine if you have an interesting perspective on it, but all Bones and co. are doing is vomiting **** everywhere and acting like a gaggle of ******* because they figured out they can argue with people and as long as at least one person pops in to agree with them it means they won.

Instances of the word "you" are not directed at you specifically Grim Tuesday, so you shouldn't feel attacked. I just happened to write that after responding to your point and they are directed at anyone who disagrees with me for a reason I don't see merit in.

That took way too much time and it's probably the longest thing I'm going to write in this outdated thread from here on.

 

[Laudandus]

Varist do you believe that Pichu is better in neutral than Ganon

If so, do you also believe Pichu is better in neutral than Marth

 

[Varist]

Varist do you believe that Pichu is better in neutral than Ganon

If so, do you also believe Pichu is better in neutral than Marth

These are questions I was expecting but they have very simple answers that could be inferred from my response on Marth.

Character traits are like an RPG stat distribution pentagon. Pichu lacks in so many areas that although he has respectable speed it does not save him from the other severe shortcomings his character design possesses.

What I hope has not happened, is that the distortion brought upon my argument has led you to believe "the fastest character will always win". That is what Bones is trying to get me to say (reading his mind here). That is why he was baiting me into addressing his garbage posts.

Speed is the most important character characteristic, never have I said it is the only one. If your other character attributes are horrendous speed will not save you.

 

[.Ðempt]

Only a couple people are distorting my words. You seem not to know the difference between not understanding because of a communication error, and not understanding because of lack of information. I deliberately provide less information than I am able because most of the time it isn't worth my effort.

Bones is literally so dumb he's never worth arguing with and that's why I'm not sparing any of the effort to explain step by step to him why he's being a pants-on-head ******.



But I will explain to you step-by-step because maybe there's more hope for you.

If you're legitimately asking me where you are missing the point, rather than putting so little thought into what you read that you're spewing **** all over the thread, I will tell you.

It would be wrong to outright state that Ganon loses the neutral game. I have already clarified that he can win the neutral game. The problem is that it is an uphill battle and he will not always win it. More and more frequently he will lose it to a faster character.

This is what I have repeated and what no one can seem to wrap their heads around.

Implying "Well Ganon has tricks and he can mind game the other guy so you're wrong" is an example of spewing **** out of your face. You are taking a scenario where a fast character is against a slow character, and then creating your own example where the fast character seems to be ****ing up constantly and the slow character just waltzes in and capitalizes. Obviously you're going to think you just disproved everything but what you actually did was create an argument all on your own that no one was creating and then attacked it and acted like you just said something reasonable instead of gagging on your own ****.

A slow character's bag of tricks is in most cases matched by or exceeded by a fast character's bag of tricks. You can sit at your computer and tell me about your hypothetical where Ganon wins the neutral game because you just forced him to win it. But you are wrong and I am right because in general a fast character is going to bait out his trick better and safer, and punish it quicker and more frequently. They have simple animation advantages that allow them to react to things if they do it properly. They have the luxury of more neutral options just because they are fast.

Trying to argue with that point is fine if you have an interesting perspective on it, but all Bones and co. are doing is vomiting **** everywhere and acting like a gaggle of ******* because they figured out they can argue with people and as long as at least one person pops in to agree with them it means they won.

That took way too much time and it's probably the longest thing I'm going to write in this outdated thread from here on.

I mean, I didn't take the time to look at your argument with him, because honestly, it's an outdated argument, in an outdated thread, with an outdated tier list.

I think the point they're just trying to make is just that yes, faster characters like Fox and Falco do have frame advantages. I'm sure they're well aware of that. I think maybe they're just trying to get you to recognize that you aren't giving enough credit to the mental aspect of the game. I could be entirely wrong, so I'm not going to speak for them, and I'd rather not get in an argument over a children's party game that we're still playing twelve years later. But if "Bones and co." are aggravating you to that extent, why not just simply brush it off and ignore him? A lot of people already do that on the Marth boards LOOOOOL

<3 Bones

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What am I wrong about? The only claim I made is that you're undervaluing reading comprehension/mind games, and nowhere in that post did you address that.
As someone else said, character match-ups are less important than player intelligence at current top level play.

Your entire reasoning behind why Ganon is bad hinges on the fast character playing "properly", and all I was saying is that that doesn't happen.

 

[Varist]

I mean, I didn't take the time to look at your argument with him, because honestly, it's an outdated argument, in an outdated thread, with an outdated tier list.

I think the point they're just trying to make is just that yes, faster characters like Fox and Falco do have frame advantages. I'm sure they're well aware of that. I think maybe they're just trying to get you to recognize that you aren't giving enough credit to the mental aspect of the game. I could be entirely wrong, so I'm not going to speak for them, and I'd rather not get in an argument over a children's party game that we're still playing twelve years later. But if "Bones and co." are aggravating you to that extent, why not just simply brush it off and ignore him? A lot of people already do that on the Marth boards LOOOOOL

<3 Bones

If I were aggravated I would not be posting in the thread anymore. They may think I am not giving enough credit to the mental game, but that is an assumption that failed to take into account that all of my predictions were based on the future. Do I believe that the mental game is less important than character attributes? No, I actually do not think that.

But do I believe that as players using fast characters get better, the mental game will become shallower for the slower character? Yes, because they have limited options versus the faster character. For the sake of example, if you have 15 options and my character only has 5, mathematically the neutral game is an uphill battle for the slow character. Common sense would suggest the slow character will lose it more than 50% of the time. The gray area arises when you consider how much the slower character really needs to win the neutral game to win the entire battle. That is why we cannot just rank characters by their speed.

Now you should also understand why Bones founding his argument on "well Fox and Falcon are the fastest characters but they're not the best so that means you must be wrong" seems so ******** to me. At least, I hope you understand. If you don't, that's okay.

 

[Varist]

What am I wrong about? The only claim I made is that you're undervaluing reading comprehension/mind games, and nowhere in that post did you address that.
As someone else said, character match-ups are less important than player intelligence at current top level play.

Your entire reasoning behind why Ganon is bad hinges on the fast character playing "properly", and all I was saying is that that doesn't happen.

I addressed it right here.

"A slow character's bag of tricks is in most cases matched by or exceeded by a fast character's bag of tricks. You can sit at your computer and tell me about your hypothetical where Ganon wins the neutral game because you just forced him to win it. But you are wrong and I am right because in general a fast character is going to bait out his trick better and safer, and punish it quicker and more frequently. They have simple animation advantages that allow them to react to things if they do it properly. They have the luxury of more neutral options just because they are fast."

If you can't understand how that relates to mind games, read what I said when I mentioned options in my previous post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If only I somehow knew that you were talking not about the current metagame, but rather a hypothetical future metagame
Gotta brush up on my mind reading, I s'pose

All you said in that paragraph is "fast characters can out-smart slow characters too, and they are better at it"
which I do not disagree with
so again, point out how I am wrong