Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[SAUS]

That's not quite true because you should play the character you feel the most comfortable with. If YOU feel that other characters have more potential, why don't you prove it? Or do you not want to go through hell?

Kage has too much warrior spirit! Ganon all the way! I remember that time a bunch of us went out and each got these 1.5 litre jugs of chocolate milk. It was good times.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage has too much warrior spirit! Ganon all the way! I remember that time a bunch of us went out and each got these 1.5 litre jugs of chocolate milk. It was good times.

Lol the days of chocolate milk. Im going easy on the chocolate lately.. well.. I did have a chocolate fountain at my birthday with fruits, it was ridiculously good. The fountain of dreams!

But it's true that if no one is willing to play a lower tier character then we'll never see the true potential.. on top of that the player would need to be incredibly smart which doesn't happen a lot..

 

[Blother]

That's not quite true because you should play the character you feel the most comfortable with. If YOU feel that other characters have more potential, why don't you prove it? Or do you not want to go through hell?

When someone is new to competitive smash and starts looking into it and sees that the character he plays is considered low tier there is a good chance that he will switch characters. This is because, in a competitive sense, that player is not comfortable with the character he is currently playing. What I mean is that he hasn't learned most of the techniques that really change how melee is played. Also, while learning most people mimic their play off of high level players, and if there is almost no high level play of certain characters then they probably won't choose to play it.

Too be honest I am actually interested in learning a bit about Ness. It would be really hard to prove anything considering I have just started learning the game, but I will definitely be playing a lower tier character at least for fun.

 

[Upke]

You will be able to find at least one really good player for each character to learn things from. Ness for example has Simna and Mofo. Even if you didn't have them, if you really do like playing the character, you should be playing it enough to learn when to use things and where for yourself. I for instance have taken a lot of notes from players like Cosmo and TheLake and even MaxBerger and かるね, but I'm also figuring out opportunities to use Zelda's unpopular moves in ways that I haven't seen yet.

 

[Coastward]

i play for fun and ignore tier lists, makes playing much more enjoyable for me.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Im a kage fan now

 

[Coastward]

that match....

 

[Papa+Stone]

Wow kage way to get killed in the first few rounds of bracket the whole second day of rom 6 was a boring ass snore fest of puffs and foxes and its all your fault that the tournament was hype less. You brought us up and then you crushed our dreams, I hope you feel terrible

 

[choknater]

the moon tho

 

[Max?]

ROM results are pretty lack luster

Outside of the MOOOOON tho

 

[Coastward]

CHILLIN'S FATE

 

[Divinokage]

Wow kage way to get killed in the first few rounds of bracket the whole second day of rom 6 was a boring *** snore fest of puffs and foxes and its all your fault that the tournament was hype less. You brought us up and then you crushed our dreams, I hope you feel terrible

=( ... I failed..

 

[Grim Tuesday]

kage
correct me if I'm wrong
but did your ganon used to be more technical?
or am I just crazy

 

[Divinokage]

kage
correct me if I'm wrong
but did your ganon used to be more technical?
or am I just crazy

I think I can say that I make different choices than I used to.. so perhaps it doesnt make it look that way but I'm still able to do everything I want to so I think it should be the same level of technical. But I do need to practice a little more.

 

[Juggleguy]

We really need an official new tier list. I don't think the one Sveet posted has been accepted very well as official material.

 

[Ripple]

It wasn't accepted by the MBR/mods. It was accepted well by the community

 

[john!]

the thing i didn't like about it was that he got everyone's opinion and then threw 90% of them out in favor of the 10% of players that he thought were worth listening to.

a project like that can only be done right if we bring back the SSBPD or something similar, so we can have objective data to work with instead of just one guy's opinion.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A combination of SSBPD and Tier List opinions would actually be the sexiest thing

 

[BSeeD]

SSBPD was a damn good idea.
What happened to this ?
I thought there was a temporary problem, and then... it disappeared

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

the thing i didn't like about it was that he got everyone's opinion and then threw 90% of them out in favor of the 10% of players that he thought were worth listening to.

Well he did make another list that included the votes with all the participants. I believe there were a total of around 120. The lists came out exactly the same as the one where he only picked the players he heard of, except Kirby was switched with Pichu, which is pretty remarkable.

 

[Bones0]

It wasn't accepted by the MBR/mods. It was accepted well by the community

Yeah, what a surprise that the majority of the community accepted a tier list created based on their own opinions.

The Smash community is too far gone in their biases to ever create a proper tier list through voting. This isn't me just saying that because I disagree with the tier list either. The ridiculous level of agreement between low level players and top level players alone is enough to show that there is a fundamental flaw in how tier lists are being created. Players that have been in the community for less than a year should not be coming to the same conclusions in the tier list as players who have been playing for a decade. It just doesn't make sense. Then you have the whole story of Jigglypuff flying up the tier list almost entirely because of Mango, a player who has since proven himself capable with a whole slew of other characters, basically disproving the idea that Jiggs was the reason he was so good. Not to mention the fact that the tier list has barely been altered at all since 2006 with Jiggs being the only main change. If you think the metagame hasn't evolved since the MLG days, you're insane.

The tier list needs to broken down into much more generalized divisions (3, maybe 4 tiers), and characters should not be ranked within each tier. The divisions themselves should be taken from a collection of results like the SSBPD, which I believe Sveet is still working on implementing directly into SmashBoards. This is the only way this community will ever get a relevant tier list.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like your post Bones.
I'm going to like it.

 

[Upke]

The SSBPD is the only thing I've wanted in life.

 

[JazzDynamite!]

Hey guys, what do you think of the visual tier list format used by the fgc? Such as the ones made from the generator on mmcafe? I personally think the way they represent character viability is more interesting than a traditional list.

I made a mock tier list using that format. Let me know what you think. If you guys like it, I could post a link that provides the resources so anyone could make their own.

 

[Coastward]

Hey guys, what do you think of the visual tier list format used by the fgc? Such as the ones made from the generator on mmcafe? I personally think the way they represent character viability is more interesting than a traditional list.

I made a mock tier list using that format. Let me know what you think. If you guys like it, I could post a link that provides the resources so anyone could make their own.

i really like the format of these things, makes the tiers more understandable. dat ics tho.

 

[Ripple]

Yeah, what a surprise that the majority of the community accepted a tier list created based on their own opinions.

except over half of the peoples' opinions were thrown out because they weren't good enough or didn't have enough years experience. and people still agreed with it.

The Smash community is too far gone in their biases to ever create a proper tier list through voting. This isn't me just saying that because I disagree with the tier list either. The ridiculous level of agreement between low level players and top level players alone is enough to show that there is a fundamental flaw in how tier lists are being created. Players that have been in the community for less than a year should not be coming to the same conclusions in the tier list as players who have been playing for a decade. It just doesn't make sense. Then you have the whole story of Jigglypuff flying up the tier list almost entirely because of Mango, a player who has since proven himself capable with a whole slew of other characters, basically disproving the idea that Jiggs was the reason he was so good. Not to mention the fact that the tier list has barely been altered at all since 2006 with Jiggs being the only main change. If you think the metagame hasn't evolved since the MLG days, you're insane.

jsut because a lot of lower people agree with top players doesn't necessarily mean there is a flaw in creating tier lists. It could mean that our top players do a very good job at showing off potential of characters and explaining how they are good compared to others (like KK does from time to time). And its not like people agree all the time on characters, there is wide fluctuations where luigi, zelda, and where Ganondorf are, but most people agree on the same tiers to characters around them.

also, are you sure you weren't looking at this tier list? significant change to pikachu and Yoshi occurred too.

The tier list needs to broken down into much more generalized divisions (3, maybe 4 tiers), and characters should not be ranked within each tier. The divisions themselves should be taken from a collection of results like the SSBPD, which I believe Sveet is still working on implementing directly into SmashBoards. This is the only way this community will ever get a relevant tier list.

if characters should not be broken down into order within tiers that would lead to more agreement between lower-level players and higher level player assuming we have ANY input from players which you have a problem with.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Hey guys, what do you think of the visual tier list format used by the fgc? Such as the ones made from the generator on mmcafe? I personally think the way they represent character viability is more interesting than a traditional list.

I made a mock tier list using that format. Let me know what you think. If you guys like it, I could post a link that provides the resources so anyone could make their own.

This format is actually pretty cool.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel stupid, but can someone explain the difference between being 'well-rounded' and 'top-tier', and the difference between 'having flaws' and being 'low-tier'?

 

[Ripple]

well rounded = multi dimensional

having flaws = one dimensional

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I would use "above average" or "decent" instead of well rounded.
Also "has flaws" is not the way I would put it since technically every single character has a flaw or two.

 

[Xyzz]

Sure, these things somewhat co-align.

Let's take an example of two characters, I (and many others, i guess) would call about equal:
Mario would be an example of a well rounded character; his moveset allows him to handle pretty much all situations well enough.
His green brother on the other hand would be a less well rounded character. He has glaring weaknesses in some departments, but he can make up for it in other areas to end up about as good as Mario.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, what do you think of the visual tier list format used by the fgc? Such as the ones made from the generator on mmcafe? I personally think the way they represent character viability is more interesting than a traditional list.

I made a mock tier list using that format. Let me know what you think. If you guys like it, I could post a link that provides the resources so anyone could make their own.

I don't really understand the purpose of having an axis dedicated to how "well rounded" a character is. Is that based on how many unusually bad matchups they have or something? Also, LOL @ Sheik's pic.

except over half of the peoples' opinions were thrown out because they weren't good enough or didn't have enough years experience. and people still agreed with it.

The thread was like 90% of people posting the exact same tier list with 1-2 characters changed 1-2 spots, and then there were 10% of people who posted something that was clearly not a cookie cutter version of the current list and were all relatively unique. Guess which 10% didn't end up agreeing with the final tier list.

jsut because a lot of lower people agree with top players doesn't necessarily mean there is a flaw in creating tier lists. It could mean that our top players do a very good job at showing off potential of characters and explaining how they are good compared to others (like KK does from time to time). And its not like people agree all the time on characters, there is wide fluctuations where luigi, zelda, and where Ganondorf are, but most people agree on the same tiers to characters around them.

also, are you sure you weren't looking at this tier list? significant change to pikachu and Yoshi occurred too.

if characters should not be broken down into order within tiers that would lead to more agreement between lower-level players and higher level player assuming we have ANY input from players which you have a problem with.

But our top players don't do a good job of conveying character knowledge to bad players... KK is one of the few top players I've even seen TRY. The vast majority of top players don't even post on the boards, let alone in threads discussing tier lists. It's also just not possible to convey the knowledge of an entire game via a message board. There's a reason skilled players have more reputable opinions than new players. The level of agreement between the absolute worst players and average smasher is WAY too high. You should have players with weird opinions like Peach is top tier or something, but all the newbies are either too afraid to post their actual beliefs, or they understand that their opinions are probably not right so they just relegate their opinion to more skilled players.

Breaking the tier list into more broad sections would obviously increase the overlap between lower and higher skilled opinions, but that's strictly probability. The main purpose of doing that would be to prevent people from drawing conclusions such as "Fox is better than Falco, and Falco is better than Sheik." There's no real evidence to support that claim, and the only reason anyone believes it is because that character ordering has been tradition so much that they used to use the acronym FFS to designate it. If we just accept that all the top tiers are really close and stop worrying about exactly where in the list they are, we draw less ridiculous assumptions based on biases and focus more on the general skill level of characters which are a lot less likely to be swayed by past lists because you are simply deciding "Are ICs on the same level as other top tiers, or are they outclassed".

2006: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, ICs, Samus, Doc, Jiggs, Mario, Ganon
2011: Fox, Falco, Jiggs (+7), Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, ICs, Doc, Ganon (+2), Samus, Pikachu (+1)
2013: Fox, Falco, Sheik (+1), Marth (+1), Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, ICs, Doc, Pikachu (+2), Samus, Ganon

From 2006 to 2013:
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Jiggs (+5)
6. Peach (-1)
7. Falcon (-1)
8. ICs (-1)
9. Doc
10. Pikachu (+8)
11. Samus (-3)
12. Ganon

If that isn't the biggest crock of **** you've ever seen, then I don't know what else to tell you. To me, this says the metagame hasn't changed at all. The only two characters that moved are two low tiers, one of which was mained by Mango, probably the second most influential Smasher after Ken himself (hilariously enough, you can see how Puff's spot backpedaled when people realized he was good with other characters), and the other was Pikachu, clearly inspired by Axe's improvement into better placings such as Pound 5, FC, etc. I guess the other alternative is that the metagame evolved, but it benefitted every character besides those two in the same amount so that none of the matchups changed at all. I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that, nor can I believe anyone who has seen this game change over the years would actually be able to say with a straight face that none of the character ranks have changed since ****ing 2006.

 

[BTmoney]

But our top players don't do a good job of conveying character knowledge to bad players... KK is one of the few top players I've even seen TRY. The vast majority of top players don't even post on the boards, let alone in threads discussing tier lists.

+1

 

[JazzDynamite!]

Here are my interpretations of the two spectra:

Has Flaws vs. Well Rounded = Consistency/# of options in different situations (Or how Ripple put it)

Top Tier vs. Low Tier = Overall competitive power

 

[john!]

here are some reasons why the tier list has not changed much since the MLG days:

- there haven't been many significant changes in character strategies
- people are more likely to play highly ranked characters, advancing their metagame further and keeping them at the top
- characters at the top continue to perform the best at large tournaments
- people understand how complicated this game is and are more likely to defer to others' opinions when they are unsure of a character's ranking

all of these are completely reasonable.

The tier list needs to broken down into much more generalized divisions (3, maybe 4 tiers), and characters should not be ranked within each tier. The divisions themselves should be taken from a collection of results like the SSBPD, which I believe Sveet is still working on implementing directly into SmashBoards. This is the only way this community will ever get a relevant tier list.

how did you start from "the metagame has changed and we are too stubborn to notice" and draw the conclusion that "characters fall into 3-4 groups and should not be sorted"?

also you conveniently forgot about hungrybox when discussing jiggs' placement.

might be wasting my time here but w/e

 

[1MachGO]

From 2006 to 2013:
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Jiggs (+5)
6. Peach (-1)
7. Falcon (-1)
8. ICs (-1)
9. Doc
10. Pikachu (+8)
11. Samus (-3)
12. Ganon

If that isn't the biggest crock of **** you've ever seen, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I feel like this is pretty misleading. the '06 and '13 tier list are more coincidentally similar than anything else.

From 2008 to 2013:

1. Fox
2. Falco (+2)
3. Sheik
4. Marth (-2)
5. Jiggs (+2)
6. Peach (-1)
7. Falcon
8. ICs
9. Doc (+1)
10. Pikachu (+6)
11. Samus (-2)
12. Ganon (-1)

Here there are 8 instances of fluctuations.

The meta game is changing, just don't expect it to change drastically. Right now there is an increasing saturation of space animals... and that probably isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[Coastward]

in the year 20XX?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

20XX Tier List:

1. Fox
2. Fox
3. Fox
4. Fox
5. Fox
6. Fox
7. Fox
8. Fox
9. Fox
10. Fox
11. Fox
12. Fox
13. Fox
14. Fox
15. Fox
16. Fox
17. Fox
18. Fox
19. Fox
20. Fox
21. Fox
22. Fox
23. Fox
24. Fox
25. Fox
26. Fox

 

[Upke]

20XX Tier List:

1. Fox
2. Fox
3. Fox
4. Fox
5. Fox
6. Fox
7. Fox
8. Fox
9. Fox
10. Fox
11. Fox
12. Fox
13. Fox
14. Fox
15. Fox
16. Fox
17. Fox
18. Fox
19. Fox
20. Fox
21. Fox
22. Fox
23. Fox
24. Fox
25. Fox
26. Fox

Only an idiot would put Fox under Fox like that.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Only an idiot would put Fox under Fox like that.

I don't know, I think Fox's massive amount of strengths outweigh the strengths that Fox has, so it's perfectly reasonable to put Fox over Fox.