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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Fortress | Sveet
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You took games off someone who took games off someone who took games off m2k? In friendlies... Wow that is really really impressive. Really.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Wow, read my whole post. I even commented about how that shouldn't tell you at all how skilled I am. The point of my comment was to say that I can't show you how skilled my Falco was. I simply cited the only MM I've played, and the guy that I've messed around against with my Falco.
Well done at misinterpreting my post. This is like the third time I've made this claim as well (how nobody can tell how good people are by describing results unless they're a big name.)
Well done at misinterpreting my post. This is like the third time I've made this claim as well (how nobody can tell how good people are by describing results unless they're a big name.)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Welcome to the community, Purpletuce.. where people don't bother to look too deeply in posts no matter the intentions. And if only that was the only thing.. *sigh* It's so bad. =/ Why do you think I've been recently more disgusted by it? lol.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Yeah, when I was typing about how my post was being misinterpreted, I thought about some of your posts. . . fun stuff. Oh well.
Little England
Smash Master
For the most part I agree with Armada's first post, so I don't know what you're trying to get at. You don't know us. lol
And his second post makes perfect sense. Like I said, if all we need to do is look at results why even discuss tier lists? It does nothing to help understand the game at all.
john!
Smash Hero
i don't think results are all that matter... the way we interpret results matters too. that usually makes for some good discussion
all i'm really saying is that we talk too much about what we think should happen, instead of what actually happens
Bones0
Smash Legend
That's because most people realize that what actually happens isn't necessarily representative of what could have happened. The tier list is usually defined as being a prediction of what results will be, but I think it should be a prediction of what results will be a year or two from now. This increases the focus on the potential characters may have that just hasn't been utilized because of a lack of good players. Obviously no one thinks Jiggs should be mid tier, but if it weren't for Mango and Hbox, and to some extent King, what would be stopping our community from viewing her as such? That's the problem with basing everything so heavily on results in a community with so little character representation. Melee is so ridiculously hard that in terms of skill, the community is very bottom-heavy. If only 5% of the population even resembles top level play, you're going to have to compensate with more theory because you have less results to go off of. If we had 10, or at least 5 Pikachu players at or around Axe's skill level, I'd feel much more comfortable falling back on results to tie break matchups or tier placings. With virtually no characters having more than 3-4 really good players, it seems kinda dumb to put the fate of a character's ranking in the hands of tournament results. That's how we end up with dumb stuff like Puff being ridiculously high just because Mango and Hbox happened to use her. Now we see it with Mango and PP using Falco, and it's already started to happen with M2K, PP, and PPU's Marths.
So instead of looking at the top players and thinking about how no one uses other characters that well, imagine if there was a Samus or Doc at that top level, and try to figure out with theory how much their character would hold them back or benefit them.
When I see light blue text in a thread 99% of the time I read it and enjoy it
When I see purple text all I can see is
I used to think that Marth was OP when I was a noob. You know what? It's still my least favorite matchup. I also think Sheik is the best character in the game, and suck against her. You know what I don't do, though? Post endlessly about how OP and broken Marth or Sheik is and how it takes no skill to play them and how I practice Falco all the time and my Marth and Sheik that I don't play do better against people at tournaments (which is true). Because that would not only be incorrect, but also rude, immature, and downright asinine.
In short, I grew up, and stopped being such a b***h. I realized that it's not something wrong with the game that makes those characters seem dominant to me, it's something wrong with me and the way I play.
Work on it. I don't want to hear about it.
For once, please, think before you speak.
It would save me a lot of typing.
When I see purple text all I can see is
If you're going to argue that Falco is the best character in the game, fine. But don't say he's easy, thereby invalidating the skill and hard work of Falco players everywhere.FALCO OP WAH I PLAY YOSHI WHY ISNT YOSHI BETTER FALCO 2 GUD HES JUST SO GUD OMG
People who use Falco have no skill
I don't even play Falco and he's almost as good as my Yoshi
Falco is gamebreaking
Falco
Falco
Falco
Falco
I used to think that Marth was OP when I was a noob. You know what? It's still my least favorite matchup. I also think Sheik is the best character in the game, and suck against her. You know what I don't do, though? Post endlessly about how OP and broken Marth or Sheik is and how it takes no skill to play them and how I practice Falco all the time and my Marth and Sheik that I don't play do better against people at tournaments (which is true). Because that would not only be incorrect, but also rude, immature, and downright asinine.
In short, I grew up, and stopped being such a b***h. I realized that it's not something wrong with the game that makes those characters seem dominant to me, it's something wrong with me and the way I play.
Work on it. I don't want to hear about it.
For once, please, think before you speak.
It would save me a lot of typing.
john!
Smash Hero
@ bones:
a tier list should be a representation of the metagame NOW (i.e. the "near future" according to the OP), not in a year or two. we shouldn't be using it as a tool to try and get people to develop underused characters... that's way too subjective and reeks of a personal agenda.
also, there is a reason certain characters are underused... you can talk all day about how a really good samus player would wreck everybody at the top level, but at what point are you willing to say that the reason this player doesn't exist is because samus is a mediocre character?
a tier list should be a representation of the metagame NOW (i.e. the "near future" according to the OP), not in a year or two. we shouldn't be using it as a tool to try and get people to develop underused characters... that's way too subjective and reeks of a personal agenda.
also, there is a reason certain characters are underused... you can talk all day about how a really good samus player would wreck everybody at the top level, but at what point are you willing to say that the reason this player doesn't exist is because samus is a mediocre character?
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you just want the tier list to represent the metagame as it exists this very moment, then you are just looking at yesterday's results. It's equivalent to putting Peach at 1st on the tier list because Armada is (was) the best. Any list that doesn't have Peach at the top obviously doesn't represent today's metagame because Peach's metagame is the most advanced. It's pretty unanimous that a tier list should be an indication of advantage in a match with players of equal skill, but there is obviously no such thing. It's theoretical. If you're going to use a tier list, you have to apply some level of theory, and I'm saying that gap between theory and metagame should be used to compare characters to the best player. Trying to envision an Armada-level Samus may lead to more subjectivity, but people will have differing opinions and biases regardless of how we rank characters short of a formula based on results.
There a lot of reasons certain characters are underused. Some people consider them boring. Some people consider them too hard. Some consider them bad. If popularity is affecting your perception of how good a character is at all, your judgement is inextricably flawed. I never said imagine a Samus that wrecks people. I said imagine a really good player with a top level Samus. Taj is a great example because I would probably consider him the best player to be extremely skilled with a character the vast majority of people would consider "unviable". It's generally accepted that Mewtwo simply cannot win tournaments if there are other players at the Mewtwo's skill level. So even though Taj can't win with Mewtwo, he is obviously a high level Mewtwo. His Mewtwo, by and large, does not lose because he isn't good enough with Mewtwo. It's because Mewtwo isn't a good enough character to get the job done.
With Mewtwo in mind, perhaps you'd understand if I compared it to Pokemon. You can have a level 100 Charizard and a level 100 Weedle, but that doesn't mean the Weedle is wrecking anyone. The Weedle could be losing to tons of Pokemon at lower levels. That would be a demonstration of the character's weaknesses. Our community does not have a level 100 representative for all characters. Even if we extend level 100 to include all of the top 5, that just means Peach, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Puff, and a Falco/Fox/Falcon. You can't watch a level 100 Puff play a level 85 IC and decide that Puff is the better character. You have to imagine how strong the IC will be once it reaches level 100. It may very well still be losing when it does, but simply looking at them as they are now is 100% useless information. Even a Weedle can beat a Charizard if their levels are 100 and 50. Ignoring the potential for characters to perform better if they only had a better player using them just leads to way more bias in favor of popular characters and characters that good players just happen to main. Yes, obviously some characters are mained more often because they really are better, but there's plenty of situations where that's not the case.
Again, I will simply point to past fluctuations among the top players' characters. Everyone thought Puff was horrible before Mango and Hbox showed up. If someone had seen Puff's potential and placed her high on a tier list, they would have been able to look back and say, "HAH! I told you Puff was a good character that just wasn't being utilized correctly!" If someone today wanted to make that sort of claim, they would just be criticized for being subjective even though tier lists have always been subjective. If results don't reflect a tier list, it doesn't necessarily mean the tier list is wrong. It could very well mean the community just hasn't explored all of the characters to their fullest potential. What we have now is boring and unproductive anyway. Every list looks almost exactly the same, and it's because people are limiting their views of characters to what has already been done. What has already been done is obvious and is reflected in results. If you think a tier list should be based on results, go figure out an algorithm to plug results into and leave the people who want to discuss theory to actually get stuff done.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Griffards too quick for me..
Griffard
Smash Ace
^^ great post, must read for anyone posting about tier lists imo.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you use cornflower blue, they will listen to you.Yoshi destroys everything......
If you use teal, they will all kneel.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
To JKJ:
Sorry if I offended you, although I do believe the things I say. Sometimes I might exaggerate or take things out of proportion, etc.
I'll try to give you how I see it:
When I started playing Melee, I lost to everyone, I was the new guy. As I improved, I would improve against everyone slowly, although Falco would usually be my biggest problem. As I got good, Falco continued to beat me.
I would always hear Falco players talking about how technical the character is, how hard he is to play, how much it sucks that he dies so easy, etc.
Eventually, I tried to play him, see what he was all about. Falco is, by far, the easiest character (in my opinion) to play, pick up, and get overall results with.
Although I still hear Falco players complain, and I still lose to them. Even though I see them having bad spacing, bad options, readable patterns, etc.
Then I come here, and I see Falco players talking about how 'gay' Puff or Peach is, or how good Marth is against them, etc. These players talk about how easy these other characters have it.
From my experience playing these characters, Falco is the one that has it relatively easy, but the majority that is Falco calls out other characters, and now it is popular opinion that floaties are the 'gay' ones.
That is my view. That is also why I get upset when I see threads saying that Fox and Falco are the only characters who aren't 'gay', and the posters don't understand why people dislike the spacies.
This ended up being a big post. Oh well. Now it is time for some Falco player to get upset after the 5th sentence and misinterpret everything I posted. Let's go.
Sorry if I offended you, although I do believe the things I say. Sometimes I might exaggerate or take things out of proportion, etc.
I'll try to give you how I see it:
When I started playing Melee, I lost to everyone, I was the new guy. As I improved, I would improve against everyone slowly, although Falco would usually be my biggest problem. As I got good, Falco continued to beat me.
I would always hear Falco players talking about how technical the character is, how hard he is to play, how much it sucks that he dies so easy, etc.
Eventually, I tried to play him, see what he was all about. Falco is, by far, the easiest character (in my opinion) to play, pick up, and get overall results with.
Although I still hear Falco players complain, and I still lose to them. Even though I see them having bad spacing, bad options, readable patterns, etc.
Then I come here, and I see Falco players talking about how 'gay' Puff or Peach is, or how good Marth is against them, etc. These players talk about how easy these other characters have it.
From my experience playing these characters, Falco is the one that has it relatively easy, but the majority that is Falco calls out other characters, and now it is popular opinion that floaties are the 'gay' ones.
That is my view. That is also why I get upset when I see threads saying that Fox and Falco are the only characters who aren't 'gay', and the posters don't understand why people dislike the spacies.
This ended up being a big post. Oh well. Now it is time for some Falco player to get upset after the 5th sentence and misinterpret everything I posted. Let's go.
*Sigh*Yoshi destroys everything......
I know Vman, we've been over this, Yoshi at a high level can combo the CRAP out of Falco. I know you love the matchup, because once you become good enough to juggle with Yoshi, you can do insane combos.
Vman, none of that post was directed at you, you know what's up. And yes, your posts are light blue, as are Bones. You are the two posters to which I was referring.
While I appreciate your apology (however half-assed it may have been)
If a Falco player has readable patterns and you do not punish them, that's on you.
If you can't beat Falco, that's on you, that's not evidence that Falco is broken. I know plenty of people who love the Falco matchup. One even plays your main. (*cough*cough* VMAN)
You still just said the exact same thing again.
Falco OP SO BROKEN
And I refer you to my above post.
I've been down this road before. It goes something like this:
First you start losing to Falco a lot. He starts really getting on your nerves. That damn short hop laser... it feels like you can't even move an inch without getting interrupted by the damn thing.
He starts pillaring you. Every time you try to grab him, he just shines you, which leads into a dair. Then a shine. Then another dair. It gets more and more frustrating. Your hatred for Falco continues to grow.
But soon after a long play session, it starts to change. While before you would cringe whenever your opponent chose Falco on the character select screen, soon that bird starts to look reeeeal good.
Finger lickin' good.
Your stomach starts to rumble, and it suddenly hits you that you're actually really hungry. You try to keep playing melee, but soon find that all you can think about is how much you want to bite into those delicious greasy wings.
Next thing you know you're walking out of KFC with a family sized meal - all to yourself.
First you start losing to Falco a lot. He starts really getting on your nerves. That damn short hop laser... it feels like you can't even move an inch without getting interrupted by the damn thing.
He starts pillaring you. Every time you try to grab him, he just shines you, which leads into a dair. Then a shine. Then another dair. It gets more and more frustrating. Your hatred for Falco continues to grow.
But soon after a long play session, it starts to change. While before you would cringe whenever your opponent chose Falco on the character select screen, soon that bird starts to look reeeeal good.
Finger lickin' good.
Your stomach starts to rumble, and it suddenly hits you that you're actually really hungry. You try to keep playing melee, but soon find that all you can think about is how much you want to bite into those delicious greasy wings.
Next thing you know you're walking out of KFC with a family sized meal - all to yourself.
Little England
Smash Master
John if you want I can talk to you about this stuff on FB. Discussion on the boards gets completely unorganized and doesn't move fast enough for me. lol
this post should be the guidelines of all smash players for it gives a good understanding to everything you need to know about character understanding
Max?
Smash Champion
While you are 100% correct that it's up to the individual to avoid mental blocks and project their problems on the internet, you don't realize that Falco is ****ing absolutely brain dead and the most fraud friendly character in the game. Thank god that there are only 4 or 5 good Falco's total out of the 10000 that exist in the competitive scene.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I've been in situations where I've gotten frustrated against Falco, that is definitely true, although usually I can just take a 5 minute break doing something else and clear my head.
I understand a good amount of my problems against Falco are on me, especially things like predictable tech options. I don't really think I have a problem following up against Falco as opposed to any other character.
My problem is more about his neutral and combo game. Bird gets in easy and hits hard. Often, even if you know what they're going for, how they're approaching, etc. you can't always do something about it. Like when a Falco is coming at you with SHL into shinegrab, just because you feel him wanting it doesn't mean you can stop it. Or when they mess up and drop a combo, but they still get the combo/kill because they're the bird.
Then you take into account how many options he has, and how you need to be prepared to handle each one. . .
I'm pretty sure my problem with Falco isn't just a mental block, and I'm sure many other players have this problem.
Also, vman is humble. The 2t, that is probably the funniest post I've read in a while.
Edit: I thought about this last night, and when I was talking about how spacie players think floaties are easy, and I said the Falco is the one that has it easy, I'm saying relative to the floaties. I'm not trying to claim that any character can be played 'easily', this is a hard game. Although if measure results vs. effort, I think Falco has it the easiest, but it is obviously still hard.
I understand a good amount of my problems against Falco are on me, especially things like predictable tech options. I don't really think I have a problem following up against Falco as opposed to any other character.
My problem is more about his neutral and combo game. Bird gets in easy and hits hard. Often, even if you know what they're going for, how they're approaching, etc. you can't always do something about it. Like when a Falco is coming at you with SHL into shinegrab, just because you feel him wanting it doesn't mean you can stop it. Or when they mess up and drop a combo, but they still get the combo/kill because they're the bird.
Then you take into account how many options he has, and how you need to be prepared to handle each one. . .
I'm pretty sure my problem with Falco isn't just a mental block, and I'm sure many other players have this problem.
Also, vman is humble. The 2t, that is probably the funniest post I've read in a while.
Edit: I thought about this last night, and when I was talking about how spacie players think floaties are easy, and I said the Falco is the one that has it easy, I'm saying relative to the floaties. I'm not trying to claim that any character can be played 'easily', this is a hard game. Although if measure results vs. effort, I think Falco has it the easiest, but it is obviously still hard.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Then all I can say to that is your spacing is probably lacking. There's only so many options that come out depending on the distance you have between you and your opponent. Once you realize what those are, you won't feel so overwhelmed anymore.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
I don't feel you're giving Yoshi enough credit.. in the defensive game either.. Though you are correct that Falco has more options (especially based on approach) that doesn't make Falco's punishment's on Yoshi automatic...
I believe you answered the question yourself...that you need to be able to just handle what's thrown at you.. (kind of like all MU's) just obviously some are more difficult than others of course... but "potentially" there is usually an effective way" If they mess up and drop a combo, then you have a chance to get away, as does any character...perhaps Yoshi's "escape method is more difficult then you'd appreciate? but the option is still there..
Just build some confidence... you got this
I believe you answered the question yourself...that you need to be able to just handle what's thrown at you.. (kind of like all MU's) just obviously some are more difficult than others of course... but "potentially" there is usually an effective way" If they mess up and drop a combo, then you have a chance to get away, as does any character...perhaps Yoshi's "escape method is more difficult then you'd appreciate? but the option is still there..
Just build some confidence... you got this
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I'll keep trying, thanks.
I actually find Sheik to be the most "brain-dead" if there is such a thing.
Which there isn't.
Because every character takes skill to play.
If you are a decent player, no character should be able to autopilot on you.
I find that I play more brain dead when I play Marth or Sheik, or even Fox.
If I'm not playing turned on 100% with Falco, I get owned, even if I'm normally better than the other person.
If you don't play Falco, you see only his strengths and don't see the planning that goes into his approaches. If I approach predictably, I get punished by any player worth their salt.
Whereas if you do play Falco, you see his flaws, bigtime.
It works the same with every player. Everyone thinks that their character is worse than other people think, because no one feels good winning with a character they are told is easy. Sheik players complain about how bad she is, Marth players complain about how slow he is, Fox players complain about his comboability, Falco players complain about his recovery, Falcon player complain about his tech and OoS options, etc., etc., ETCETERA.
You always think that your character takes more skill than others believe. The question is whether you are mature enough to realize that your opinion is misguided and heavily based on your own inadequacies.
Which there isn't.
Because every character takes skill to play.
If you are a decent player, no character should be able to autopilot on you.
I find that I play more brain dead when I play Marth or Sheik, or even Fox.
If I'm not playing turned on 100% with Falco, I get owned, even if I'm normally better than the other person.
If you don't play Falco, you see only his strengths and don't see the planning that goes into his approaches. If I approach predictably, I get punished by any player worth their salt.
Whereas if you do play Falco, you see his flaws, bigtime.
It works the same with every player. Everyone thinks that their character is worse than other people think, because no one feels good winning with a character they are told is easy. Sheik players complain about how bad she is, Marth players complain about how slow he is, Fox players complain about his comboability, Falco players complain about his recovery, Falcon player complain about his tech and OoS options, etc., etc., ETCETERA.
You always think that your character takes more skill than others believe. The question is whether you are mature enough to realize that your opinion is misguided and heavily based on your own inadequacies.
john!
Smash Hero
i understand that people like upvoting walls of text, but bones' entire post ignores the part where i said that interpretation of results is a good thing and should be encouraged.
for example, taking player skill into account when you see the final results of a tournament is interpreting results. saying that armada or hbox can beat everybody with a non-top tier due to their personal skill levels instead of their characters' strengths is interpreting results.
saying (for example) that puff is the best character because her ledge stalling game is unbeatable when executed correctly is not interpreting results, because no top puff players have ever done this in a competitive setting.
i think one of these things is okay, and one of them isn't. there's a pretty distinct difference between theory that has a basis in reality, and theory that doesn't.
for example, taking player skill into account when you see the final results of a tournament is interpreting results. saying that armada or hbox can beat everybody with a non-top tier due to their personal skill levels instead of their characters' strengths is interpreting results.
saying (for example) that puff is the best character because her ledge stalling game is unbeatable when executed correctly is not interpreting results, because no top puff players have ever done this in a competitive setting.
i think one of these things is okay, and one of them isn't. there's a pretty distinct difference between theory that has a basis in reality, and theory that doesn't.
results do drive the metagame but it doesn't drive it entirely. like just cuz axe places in top 8 in tourney with his pika and beats a ton of fox and falcos doesn't mean that pika is better and the MU for pika vs fox or pika vs falco is in favor of pika
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Lol @ people who think Sheik is brain-dead
>_>
Maybe if your ambition is to become as good as JKJ or something
>_>
Maybe if your ambition is to become as good as JKJ or something
Bones0
Smash Legend
Metaknight is the most brain-dead. That's why he was banned.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I can confirm that Peach is only downsmash. Just look at Armada. 
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I posted that, and then read my sig. Had a good laugh.
KK, calm down, I said that there isn't such a thing as a brain dead character
I just implied (and stated in an earlier post) that I suck against Sheik, and that's why I put "brain-dead" in quotes
I only meant that despite my sucking against Sheik, it's my fault, and it doesn't make her "brain-dead".
Read my post. I actually was calling out people who call other characters "brain-dead".
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
FourStar, when you said "think star fox", where you implying that spacies take more thinking than other chracters? Although it is obvious that at top level, every character requires thinking. I also think it is well known that in Melee, sometimes players opt to play technically, and allow smart play to take a back seat.
So at the lower-mid level of play, some players are running in with tech skill without much thought to it. Who do you think they are playing? Nobody is going in with a Puff Nairplane. Who do you think can get away with 'tech-skill' approaches? (my guess is characters from Star Fox).
Hint: It isn't Wolf, Slippy or Peppy. You can't play them in this game.
So at the lower-mid level of play, some players are running in with tech skill without much thought to it. Who do you think they are playing? Nobody is going in with a Puff Nairplane. Who do you think can get away with 'tech-skill' approaches? (my guess is characters from Star Fox).
Hint: It isn't Wolf, Slippy or Peppy. You can't play them in this game.
Bairplane all day
i get what you mean but the best fox and falcos are hella smart. i was not talking about the average player
Fortress | Sveet
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Offensive is so much easier than Defense at lower levels. For offense, all you really need to know is how to lcancel and execute some combos. Defense has to know how the opponent is attacking and the correct responses, not to mention they still have to be able to execute their punishes just as well. There is quite of bit of game knowledge you need before you can defend properly. As you reach the top levels this is pretty much even or maybe easier for the defender.