Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

FourStar, I don't even understand what you're saying half the time you post. . .

It fits into the realm of you should not try to and simply move on.

 

[john!]

On the subject of easy vs hard I think there's a difference between being hard to win with and hard to use. There's a high technical skill cap to Fox, perhaps higher than any other character which makes him a hard character to use. Meanwhile, Game and Watch has less of a technical skill cap and makes him easier to use. However, Fox is a much better character and is easier to win with. You could say Game and Watch is hard but its not like he's hard to use all of his options, its just hard to win when you have a ****ty shield, die quickly etc I think that's what people mean when they talk about hard and easy.

suppose the fox/G&W matchup was so terrible that a mediocre fox player could do nothing but spam nair/usmash and beat a G&W player that was better than them

which character would be considered easier to play?

 

[Divinokage]

Let me know when you guys are spiritually enlightened then we'll talk.

 

[FourStar]

I don't really think what's happening right now is enlightening. The whole point of how easy offense vs. defense is was made last page, now it is just dragged out into the details. When somebody makes an analogy between smash and some other sport it allows me to see what they're saying. At this point people are just saying, more or less, that sometimes defense is easier and sometimes offense is easier. I feel like running through games we consider easier in one of those playstyles won't really bring anything to the smash conversation that initially making the comparisons didn't.

FourStar, I don't even understand what you're saying half the time you post. . .

yeah i suck at typing. i look back now and think the exact same thing. what the hell was i saying....

 

[Bones0]

I don't really think what's happening right now is enlightening. The whole point of how easy offense vs. defense is was made last page, now it is just dragged out into the details. When somebody makes an analogy between smash and some other sport it allows me to see what they're saying. At this point people are just saying, more or less, that sometimes defense is easier and sometimes offense is easier. I feel like running through games we consider easier in one of those playstyles won't really bring anything to the smash conversation that initially making the comparisons didn't.

FourStar, I don't even understand what you're saying half the time you post. . .

It's not about figuring out whether offense or defense is easier. It's about determining what makes each one harder or easier and how that can change what strategy you should approach a situation with. If you had actually tried to learn anything from the discussion you might have gotten that. I get annoyed by plenty of things on these forums, but the most frustrating thing ever is the people that try to dismiss discussions just because they're too close-minded to see the value in it.

 

[Little England]

suppose the fox/G&W matchup was so terrible that a mediocre fox player could do nothing but spam nair/usmash and beat a G&W player that was better than them

which character would be considered easier to play?

I would rip this post apart. Lmao unfortunately I'm on my phone. And you still haven't taken me up on having these discussions on FB.

 

[john!]

I would rip this post apart. Lmao unfortunately I'm on my phone.

sounds like johns to me

 

[FourStar]

wow this post has been dead for while.... so do you think falco's and fox's placement in the next tier list will changed?

 

[BTmoney]

Well the way it's looking, to me, there wil be no "official" list so I'm sure that various lists will reflect that

 

[FourStar]

Well the way it's looking, to me, there wil be no "official" list so I'm sure that various lists will reflect that

well they can't keep going with this list. its pretty outdated in my opinion

 

[odinNJ]

The problem is that there is a huge discussion over what the list should be based off of that has to be resloved first.
Despite the voting going on in the other thread, people still disagree as to what a tier list reflects.

 

[Bones0]

The problem is that there is a huge discussion over what the list should be based off of that has to be resloved first.
Despite the voting going on in the other thread, people still disagree as to what a tier list reflects.

The problem is that no one will ever agree what a tier list should be based off of.

 

[FourStar]

The problem is that no one will ever agree what a tier list should be based off of.

exactly. but that's life in general. we just need to find a list that for the most part, accurately depicts the current metagame. of course there is huge discussion over mid tiers and the rearranging of the 3 through 6 spots. but we will get there

 

[TheLake]

Luigi movin on up

 

[Blistering Speed]

In case anyone missed it: that theoretical Fox, the one that supposedly couldn't and wouldn't be realized in a competitive tournament setting and, therefore, left Fox undeserving of such a high place on the tier list. We saw it yesterday.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hasn't mango been using fox to win tourneys for a while? I mean, he started back at Genesis 2 where he ALMOST beat Armada with it

 

[Xyzz]

You will always remember that day when Mango's Fox almost beat Captain Armada!

 

[Warhawk]

Hasn't mango been using fox to win tourneys for a while? I mean, he started back at Genesis 2 where he ALMOST beat Armada with it

He previously used Fox against floaties and in matches he knew he'd win regardless of who he picked. Pretty sure before yesterday he hadn't beat PP or M2K with Fox and a lot of people thought he couldn't as both those guys are considered so good against Fox (especially M2K).

 

[BTmoney]

He previously used Fox against floaties and in matches he knew he'd win regardless of who he picked. Pretty sure before yesterday he hadn't beat PP or M2K with Fox and a lot of people thought he couldn't as both those guys are considered so good against Fox (especially M2K).

I don't remember exactly, Mango stayed fox against M2k?

IIRC M2k hasn't lost a set to a fox in years unless you count Rom 5 nonsense

 

[Warhawk]

Mango lost as Falco in winners to M2K and then went Fox and beat M2K 3-1.

 

[MountainGoat]

Yeah I remember hearing that M2k hasn't lost to Fox in ages and ages but I can't remember how true that is

 

[Ziodyne]

Rom5 Unknown vs. Mew2king was probably the most recent example (though it's hard to consider it legit with all the randomness surrounding Rom5).

Before that though, the last time I can think of a Fox beating Mew2king in a set would probably be PC Chris circa 2007.

3-1 Mew2king in Loser's Finals with Fox? History in the making IMO

 

[Purpletuce]

I was upset when Mango won Zenith because I knew this would happen.

The problem with Fox(what I've heard from other players and what I think) is that he is hard to play well consistently(as apposed to characters like Peach or Falco), not that he can't be played well.

I'll be surprised if it happens again.

 

[Bones0]

Mango, a player who has beaten the best with Puff and Falco, won a single national with Fox after multiple attempts and failures and Armada's retirement?

Clearly Fox is unstoppable at this point in the metagame.

 

[MountainGoat]

I don't think anyone is saying that Bones.

 

[Blistering Speed]

"Results are all that matters", said the anti-Fox brigade.

Now, with results:

"These specific results don't matter."

If you're really so brain-dead that your only method of metagame evaluation is the objective tournament evidence of a relatively microcosmic community, the least you could do is be consistent in your own ******** criteria.

Yesterday's victory is not just a notch on some dimwitted scoreboard of character victories, it was a demonstration of a new potential that Fox, as a character, was previously doubted to be capable of.

 

[Bones0]

I don't think anyone is saying that Bones.

I was exaggerating. Most people probably don't think Fox is unstoppable, but plenty of people are not afraid to say he is the best, or even BY FAR the best.

"Results are all that matters", said the anti-Fox brigade.

Now, with results:

"These specific results don't matter."

If you're really so brain-dead that your only method of metagame evaluation is the objective tournament evidence of a relatively microcosmic community, the least you could do is be consistent in your own ******** criteria.

Yesterday's victory is not just a notch on some dimwitted scoreboard of character victories, it was a demonstration of a new potential that Fox, as a character, was previously doubted to be capable of.

Well I'd probably be considered the leader of the anti-Fox brigade (lol), but results aren't at all why. Even if they were, 1 player winning 1 tournament with Fox in several years is the opposite of "results". I'm not saying Zenith's results don't matter, but it's a drop in the ocean. I also don't see how him winning Zenith was so different from getting 2nd at Genesis 2, like Sveet said. I don't think that many people were surprised Mango won the tourney, or at least I wasn't. I guess him finally winning vs. PP and M2K as Fox is pretty interesting, but I doubt anyone was taking 2:1 side bets on the match.

If you want to say Mango's Fox is demonstrating a new level of Fox that was previously unseen, that's fine, and talking about new stuff that he did is great and actually productive to the theory behind a tier list. But to act like him playing good at one tournament is fulfilling the theoretical Fox concept that's been floating around since the dawn of time is naive, and that's where I take issue with your post. I am baffled how you can't see the big picture which is you cherry picking a SINGLE result from a SINGLE player who was ALREADY top level and using that as justification for your placement of Fox at the top of the tier list.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Well I'd probably be considered the leader of the anti-Fox brigade (lol), but results aren't at all why. Even if they were, 1 player winning 1 tournament with Fox in several years is the opposite of "results". I'm not saying Zenith's results don't matter, but it's a drop in the ocean.

As I have plainly alluded, I totally disagree with the isolated use of tournament results as a method of tier list evaluation. I just found it funny that those who rely on it are now backtracking to fit their agenda.

I also don't see how him winning Zenith was so different from getting 2nd at Genesis 2, like Sveet said. I don't think that many people were surprised Mango won the tourney, or at least I wasn't. I guess him finally winning vs. PP and M2K as Fox is pretty interesting, but I doubt anyone was taking 2:1 side bets on the match.

I honestly can't think of anything more significant that could happen in our current metagame than Fox beating Doctor PeePee, Mew2king and Hungrybox consecutively. What more could be done?

If you want to say Mango's Fox is demonstrating a new level of Fox that was previously unseen, that's fine, and talking about new stuff that he did is great and actually productive to the theory behind a tier list.

That was exactly my point, so I don't see why you're arguing with me.

I am baffled how you can't see the big picture which is you cherry picking a SINGLE result from a SINGLE player who was ALREADY top level and using that as justification for your placement of Fox at the top of the tier list.

"As I have plainly alluded, I totally disagree with the isolated use of tournament results as a method of tier list evaluation. I just found it funny that those who rely on it are now backtracking to fit their agenda."

 

[Warhawk]

I was upset when Mango won Zenith because I knew this would happen.

The problem with Fox(what I've heard from other players and what I think) is that he is hard to play well consistently(as apposed to characters like Peach or Falco), not that he can't be played well.

I'll be surprised if it happens again.

I don't think the "Fox is hard to play consistently" argument should be used to lower Fox's position. Mango's Fox seems to play consistently at a very high level (so it can be done) and even against your example its lately been more consistent than his Falco. I absolutely hate that argument for him being lower, especially when there are much better ones like the other top tiers being able to abuse his range in a lot of instances.

 

[john!]

i don't think yesterday's win is enough to put fox at #1 quite yet, guys.

but it definitely should be an eye-opener to the dudes who are putting him at like 4th place lol

 

[Bones0]

i don't think yesterday's win is enough to put fox at #1 quite yet, guys.

but it definitely should be an eye-opener to the dudes who are putting him at like 4th place lol

I don't get why people think it should be eye-opening. If Mango had spent all this time practicing Falcon instead of Fox and had started winning tournaments with Falcon, everyone would just attribute it to Mango being amazing. Armada's Peach has already gotten to the top and impressed people only to have people say "Armada is just good with a bad character." Suddenly when it's a Fox doing good, it has nothing to do with Mango playing amazingly (he said himself he felt like he was playing at a 8 vs. M2K and 9.5 vs. Hbox), it's somehow proof that Fox is really good. It just seems like confirmation bias to me because people have already put Fox so high on their list in their mind that when they finally see a Fox play well it carries more weight than it should.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well, for me personally, Mango's performance at Zenith doesn't change Fox's position on my personal tier list at all.

Just for reference, this is my top tier:

1. Mewtwo
2. MK
3. Falco
4. Master Hand
5. Giga Bowser
6. Fox
7. Goggles Pichu (but not the other Pichus)

imo of course

 

[Purpletuce]

I never meant to imply thadt I thought fox should be lower because of his inconsistent results alone. That Is just a major point that expresses quite a bit about how I view him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The only thing that Zenith should show is that it IS possible for Fox to win a huge tournament (something that it seemed a lot of people didn't believe). It shouldn't change tier list opinions, but we can learn Fox things from it to buff/change our theories accordingly.

But it's hard not to believe 100% in Fox being the best character when you see Fox looking soooooooo sexy.

 

[BTmoney]

People are really this caught up because Mango won Zenith? Who didn't see that coming?

Him beating PP as Fox is the only partially interesting thing. It's not like Mango isn't obviously the best active player and Fox has bad MUs or something.

If anything thing, it took him long enough. If people want to invalidate the current "anti-fox" stance (and that phrase in itself is ******** propaganda) then other Fox players need to start playing better and placing higher. If Mango goes to Impulse and wins, yay. If he takes Evo, yahoo. If he takes Apex 2014, great.

All I learned is that Fox is still excellent and Mango is still the best player. I'm not sure where people are getting these feels from.
I don't think anyone with a valid opinion thinks that Fox can't win large tournaments.

 

[FourStar]

I never meant to imply thadt I thought fox should be lower because of his inconsistent results alone. That Is just a major point that expresses quite a bit about how I view him.

then who would be first? falco probably? and you can't blame people not good with fox for him being lower on the tier list. that's like saying Captain falcon should be mid tier cuz no one does really good with him in tournaments

 

[Ziodyne]

This discussion sucks

ASKADLFADLSFJAWPOIJ MANGO WON A TOURNAMENT WENT FOX QALKEJDSKJ
DSLFKJQEJFASDIGFIOJ DOESN'T MATTER, NOT RESULTS-BASED LIST DAS()I#@()ED

Rather than spew out the same **** that people always do on this thread and do it in TRIPLICATE, repeating the exact same thing someone just minutes ago ALREADY SAID, how's about we try actually try discussing how Mango's Fox may affect views on the game or counterpoints?

I'll start with something like, oh, before watching Mango play, I was on the fence on the placement of Fox/Falco for top spot. However, watching Mango play, and seeing that sort of incredible movement that seems to always get Fox wherever he wants to go and effectively combine movement, pressure, and punishment into one fluid motion, I'm starting to lean towards seeing Fox as the better character. And at this tournament, watching PP play, Falco is still good, but seems to lack that potential for incredible movement and fluidity that Fox does for locking someone down, and is kinda stuck always chasing people down with lasers or throwing out hitboxes.

And if someone doesn't agree, they make intelligent counterpoints about why I'm a dumb ****.
Feel free to discuss/call me a dumb **** because it's more interesting that the stuff I'm seeing here anyway.

 

[BTmoney]

vote to drop topic imo rofl

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Either discuss whats being talked about, come up with a better topic, or dont post. Meta discussion is worthless.

 

[Purpletuce]

Uh, Ado, you're post was worded in a way that made me want to bother reading the rest of your post, so I'll respond to it. . .

What makes you think Mango is obviously the best player right now? (Or did I misread your post and you were being sarcastic?)

He has recent losses to (Bladewise/PPU, which I'll call outliers), Hbox, M2K, PP and Armada. We'll go ahead and neglect Aramda as being a potential best player because he is retired, but then after looking at the rest of the players. . . everyone has been losing to other players. (Before Zenith, everyone but PP), so Mango looks like he is primarily beating Hbox, probably going evenish with PP, and primarily losing to M2K.

I would say (neglecting inconsistency) that it would be no more obvious that he is best than it is as obvious that he is 4th.