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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Fox has the worst combos in competitive circles of the top 6 or 7 characters. Mostly because u-throw is flimsy: it doesn't combo directly link to anything on Peach reliably, uair is SDIable, bair is meh unless he gets a running start for it (same with nair), and his other stuff out of it only really works on fast fallers and anyone can throw > tech chase / launcher > repeat throw or launcher however many times > finisher > edgeguard / taunt on a fast faller in this metagame. Granted, most of this can be mitigated by Fox's sharking game because Fox is hella good at picking up dropped combos with shine, dash dance grab, his various aerials, and he can simply out-prioritize the foe in a bunch of positions because of his big red bubbles despite his smaller limbs. That said, almost everyone is stunningly mediocre with the character despite his tremendous popularity and Falco lynches him so I think he's overrated.

I think Sheik might have had historically stronger placements within the top 8 for the last few years at high profile tournaments but I'd have to look into that. I think she's a stronger choice for this metagame in general since she's better vs most characters in the top 12 or so with the exceptions being basically Puff and ICs AFAIK. In my humble opinion, Sheik fares better than Fox vs most of the tournament characters including Falco, Marth, Peach, Samus, Luigi, Pikachu, Ganon, Doc, Mario, and Falcon. I feel that alone should secure her a spot above him but then I'm a weirdo and think Sheik vs Fox is a pretty fair matchup for both characters and roughly even. I know this may be a point of contention since a lot of people feel Fox beats Sheik and beating Sheik on the basis of character trait advantages is generally held at high value. But I think she handles McCloud with enough success for it to be considered about even; the only characters I think do it substantially better than her are Falco and Marth on FD.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Fox has the worst combos in competitive circles of the top 6 or 7 characters. Mostly because u-throw is flimsy: it doesn't combo directly link to anything on Peach reliably, uair is SDIable, bair is meh unless he gets a running start for it (same with nair), and his other stuff out of it only really works on fast fallers and anyone can throw > tech chase / launcher > repeat throw or launcher however many times > finisher > edgeguard / taunt on a fast faller in this metagame. Granted, most of this can be mitigated by Fox's sharking game because Fox is hella good at picking up dropped combos with shine, dash dance grab, his various aerials, and he can simply out-prioritize the foe in a bunch of positions because of his big red bubbles despite his smaller limbs. That said, almost everyone is stunningly mediocre with the character despite his tremendous popularity and Falco lynches him so I think he's overrated.

I think Sheik might have had historically stronger placements within the top 8 for the last few years at high profile tournaments but I'd have to look into that. I think she's a stronger choice for this metagame in general since she's better vs most characters in the top 12 or so with the exceptions being basically Puff and ICs AFAIK. In my humble opinion, Sheik fares better than Fox vs most of the tournament characters including Falco, Marth, Peach, Samus, Luigi, Pikachu, Ganon, Doc, Mario, and Falcon. I feel that alone should secure her a spot above him but then I'm a weirdo and think Sheik vs Fox is a pretty fair matchup for both characters and roughly even. I know this may be a point of contention since a lot of people feel Fox beats Sheik and beating Sheik on the basis of character trait advantages is generally held at high value. But I think she handles McCloud with enough success for it to be considered about even; the only characters I think do it substantially better than her are Falco and Marth on FD.

Could you clarify your opinion of the Falco vs. Fox matchup? I must have misunderstood because it seemed like you said Sheik fairs better than Falco vs. Fox, but then at the end you said Falco and Marth on FD are substantially better vs. Fox.

And yes, that was intentional.
 

strawhats

Smash Master
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Bladewise, DoH, VaNz, MacD. XIF, Wife, Sastopher if you want to go older. There are many more than the ones I listed, too. Peach is one of the best characters in the game and she has historically been at the top of the tier list (2010 tier list is her lowest showing so far, we will see soon where the 2013 tier list puts her).
Vidjo, Cort, and from what I've heard EX.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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just curious, why do you think this is?

Because Fox is fast, fun, challenging, and has a ridiculously high skill cap, all of which are traits that competitive players have a tendency to like. It also doesn't hurt that he looks cool while Puff is a pink balloon Pokemon.
 

john!

Smash Hero
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Messages
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The Garden of Earthly Delights
i'm not sure how many multiplayer competitive games you've played, but in most games the easymode pubstomp characters will always be the most popular until you get to the very high levels.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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Mar 14, 2011
Messages
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People play characters in this game because they're fun, because they liked the video game and have a special sort of nostalgic connection with it (like the Zelda series, for example). Not because they're pubstomp easymode.
 

john!

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People play characters in this game because they're fun, because they liked the video game and have a special sort of nostalgic connection with it (like the Zelda series, for example). Not because they're pubstomp easymode.
if this is true, then how do you explain the overwhelming popularity of the top 7 characters compared to the other 19?
 

The 2t

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Well obviously there's a limit to it, I mean Fox and Jiggs are both great characters so at that point people are just going to go with the one they like, and in this case people are going to gravitate to the one that's fast, flashy and not annoyingly floaty. It's not like it's the same as having to choose between Fox and Pichu, for example.
 

KirbyKaze

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Could you clarify your opinion of the Falco vs. Fox matchup? I must have misunderstood because it seemed like you said Sheik fairs better than Falco vs. Fox, but then at the end you said Falco and Marth on FD are substantially better vs. Fox.

And yes, that was intentional.
Clarify? Sure. Falco ***** him.

Sheik vs Fox is even. Sheik vs Falco is even.

Fox is popular because he's the most expressive character and wins fast. This is not rocket science.
 
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Just google "expressive" Its definition makes me think falcon is the most expressive character with the bandwagon riding on the character.
 

KirbyKaze

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Fox enables his handler the best, most versatile, most maneuverable movement options. He therefore has the most manipulation of the stage and methods of controlling the distance between himself and his opponent. Coupled with his numerous quality attacks, Fox is very possibly the character with the most stylistic variety even at the highest played level of the game. This is appealing and attractive to people getting into Melee because it gives them a sense of freedom with their development, focal points, and experimentation.

These things in tandem can give an onlooker the impression that Fox can support basically any style he wants to play. Which makes him a character whose style allows the user a lot of room for their own personal expression.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
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Peach, Sheik, Marth are probably your best bets. But everyone would say those are even. So...no one. :p
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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^ Who are you asking

Personally, I don't think Falco wins the match-up. I think its pretty even or slight advantage to fox
 

KirbyKaze

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:(

So then who, if anyone, ***** Falco? I think his worst MU is Peach but the bias is strong on that one.

And your opinion of Sheik is pretty interesting, not what I expected.
Nobody has an advantageous match up on Falco currently. He's been developed more effectively than Fox (and most other characters) in recent years and this shows.

Why do you think Falco beats Fox so decisively?
Because shine to 60%+ and advantageous position even if you suck is really good and much more reliable than shine to positional advantage, maybe a grab if you're good but otherwise hard to say much because there are a lot of outcomes possible.

Falco's moves are also just generally more reliable than Fox's aside from his smashes. Which makes Fox a bit more susceptible to losing a punish or failing to convert on an opening simply because Falco SDIed his dair or jumped into it and shined Fox's landing, etc.

In terms of combat and acquisition of first hits... I just feel that Falco's is generally better in the head to head. Barring a PS consistency that I don't think exists (yet) I feel the laser combined with the reach of Falco's dash SH and high priority above him do a solid job of policing Fox's dash SH aerials and dash dance grab. Normally opposing characters focus on out-ranging Falco and getting into a position where they can poke at him if he shoots and dash attack retreating lasers. Fox is less good at this because his dash attack is weak, easily crouch teched, and low range. His alternatives are slower and/or require him jump. Finally, his lower range means poking if he suspects a stationary or approaching action by Falco is simply not as good of a plan. His ranged attacks don't have as much threat as Peach fair, Sheik f-tilt, etc. This makes Fox more likely to try and play off his vertical mobility with FJ and platforms but this shrinks his threat pool by removing virtually all his immediate combo starters (grab, u-smash, u-tilt, dash attack, shine into WD) and being airborne for that long is just generally risky. Since his dair sometimes doesn't work, it encourages using sex kicks more but then those have obvious weaknesses too.

So yeah. That's how I see it. Falco polices Fox's game better than vice versa. Almost all of Fox's advantages come after getting Falco out of position but that means getting a substantial hit. Falco's advantages come before getting a hit and are generally better after a hit too.
 

Bones0

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Nobody has an advantageous match up on Falco currently. He's been developed more effectively than Fox (and most other characters) in recent years and this shows.


Because shine to 60%+ and advantageous position even if you suck is really good and much more reliable than shine to positional advantage, maybe a grab if you're good but otherwise hard to say much because there are a lot of outcomes possible.

Falco's moves are also just generally more reliable than Fox's aside from his smashes. Which makes Fox a bit more susceptible to losing a punish or failing to convert on an opening simply because Falco SDIed his dair or jumped into it and shined Fox's landing, etc.

In terms of combat and acquisition of first hits... I just feel that Falco's is generally better in the head to head. Barring a PS consistency that I don't think exists (yet) I feel the laser combined with the reach of Falco's dash SH and high priority above him do a solid job of policing Fox's dash SH aerials and dash dance grab. Normally opposing characters focus on out-ranging Falco and getting into a position where they can poke at him if he shoots and dash attack retreating lasers. Fox is less good at this because his dash attack is weak, easily crouch teched, and low range. His alternatives are slower and/or require him jump. Finally, his lower range means poking if he suspects a stationary or approaching action by Falco is simply not as good of a plan. His ranged attacks don't have as much threat as Peach fair, Sheik f-tilt, etc. This makes Fox more likely to try and play off his vertical mobility with FJ and platforms but this shrinks his threat pool by removing virtually all his immediate combo starters (grab, u-smash, u-tilt, dash attack, shine into WD) and being airborne for that long is just generally risky. Since his dair sometimes doesn't work, it encourages using sex kicks more but then those have obvious weaknesses too.

So yeah. That's how I see it. Falco polices Fox's game better than vice versa. Almost all of Fox's advantages come after getting Falco out of position but that means getting a substantial hit. Falco's advantages come before getting a hit and are generally better after a hit too.

Can you be more specific about how to use lasers to police Fox's DD spam (for educational purposes, not really to do with the tier list lol)? I generally feel like Foxes just FH over my lasers and/or WL off of platforms. The way you described this position for Fox makes it seem like it should benefit Falco, but I tend to feel really trapped once I whiff a laser and Fox is above me because then I have to do stuff like utilt and hope it trades, CC and hope he doesn't drill, or shield and hope he doesn't grab (or just do solid shield pressure to catch my OoS option).

Bonus question: How do you think each stage plays out for the matchup? I have gone back and forth on my stage selections for this matchup more than probably any other. I frequently find myself wanting to go to YS and then next time I want DL. YS seems nice because combos are generally easier to keep up with, and I find it much easier to get first hits by poking Fox on side plats with SHed aerials. The top plat is also low enough that it can be a good get out of jail free card if I feel like I committed badly with a SH and would rather DJ WL onto the top plat.

On DL, Fox has a lot of room to run, but I'm content to let him have it because it makes it easier for me to laser as well as not get steamrolled by techchases. I get trapped at the ledge less so I get shine spiked a lot less, and uair and usmash don't kill as early either. It's kinda hard to stop him from plat camping, but at the same time, they are so far apart and so far from the ground that he can't as easily catch me off guard with run-off stuff or tricky WLs.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
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ok so this is something i 've been wondering lately so how is the falco vs. fox matchup? like is it even or who has the edge?
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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Wait, did you just ask a question that was answered directly above you then decline to read the answer because it was long? This makes me think you don't read anything and just without thinking. That's annoying.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Basically Falco's laser provides a measure of stage control by policing the opponent's ability to dash in with anything. This is so because Falco eventually tweaks the spacing between himself and the opponent to be able to combo off lasers (fading inward with laser actually expands the range where this works a lot) or he gets into a position where he can laser and then dash SH aerial and meet the opponent's position before their relevant anti-airs can stuff his SH aerial.

We're gonna switch perspectives for a second. See, Fox has an issue. His u-smash is an enormous commitment but it's his only arcing anti-air that hits in front with any priority. His other moves are flimsy vs Falco's because of his smaller SH giving him an inherently poor position in SH aerial vs SH aerial exchanges against Falco. This leaves him with shield and full jump, since the rest of his options are kind of soft vs Falco unless the Falco hasn't set up properly for whatever reason and is still trying to go in boldly. We all should know that shine OOS hits on frame 4 when done perfectly and that he can buffer FJ backjump OOS after the shine to avoid most direct chains in the pressure sequence. So rather than talk about blocking, I'm gonna go further into jumping over the laser.

Basically Fox has two kinds of jumps he uses as a go-to vs Falco where he's acting with some interest in how he can engage (attempt to hit) Falco. Falco's laser is meant to police dash jump ins a lot of the time. Foxes therefore may have to try to get close with small, incremental movements conducive to self-defense (she WDed OOS) so he can set up a stationary or low momentum FJ with his back turned towards Falco. This is reasonable because Falco's crouch shine is low range, bair has a decent chunk of leg on it, and coming down has a pretty decent mix between the air attacks available, wavelanding, DJ into various landing options, shining, fading, and so forth. In other instances, Fox's pilot might find a moment where dash FJ is available, enabling him to protect (or even intercept) movements towards a platform while allowing lasers to pass below his mobile, threatening character. This method, though more difficult to set up, gives Fox a bigger range of landing zones and therefore can frazzle players that focus too heavily on punishing landing lag. Fortunately, the laser is great too because Falco retains his entire option pool after shooting, enabling him to take the appropriate countermeasures if they're available. And if they're not, or his pilot simply doesn't see a winning outcome immediately, he can simply back off and maintain stage control at the cost of some space behind him.

Now for specifics on Fox dash vs Falco laser. I am not really including powershielding because of my low experience with and against it. Basically, lasers are powerful partially because of Falco's amazing SH aerials. The amount of space he can cover moving towards (or away from) the opponent warrants some care be taken with said opponent's defensive stance. Normally, this would mean Falco's foe giving adequate room for the character with scary SH aerials to attack but this one is special and can shoot you. So there's too much space but also too little space because of the risk involved with being hit by him. This in and of itself is confusing. So Foxes got confusing in response...

What Foxes often try to do in order to combat this is use a transitional form of dash spacing where they try to goad Falco into attacking them out of panic but only as a result of them carefully applying pressure by threatening to engage him in close combat (or doing so, if they're bold) and then backing off to observe his reaction. Ideally, the Falco thinks the sky is falling and tries to dair the nearest opponent despite the positioning being terrible for it. However, this type of play runs the risk that Falco simply remains level-headed under fire and, when Fox moves away, he recognizes the delays in Fox's volleys are Fox's pilot's windows for confirmations - in this instance, a bad panic attack. If Falco can identify this he can use this observation to reestablish stage control because he'll get free lasers. I could leave this here because there are a bazillion strategies like this one vs Falco that involve trying to get him to attack something he can't possibly hit. But we can go further because this principle can actually be expanded to virtually any form of goading tactic that people use against Falco. Whenever someone is trying to punish Falco's free fall or anything that requires they back off and wait for Falco to attack into them, Falco can simply shoot them and move in, effectively pressing them back. And if you keep doing this then you're going to make life miserable for them.

I also want to say that the stationary lasers with directional fades towards or away from the foe are really strong for just barely getting into range of a laser combo or staying out of the reach of a low range character's run in. These can both be really relevant vs Fox since... yeah.

I could go on but that should get you started.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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More literature for Bones0 and anyone else interested in Falco and how he fights...

This one's a bit more general.




Have you ever watched a defensively oriented Sheik (that isn't M2K) fight against a high level opponent that is also committed to playing defense? A mid tier like Samus or a top tier floaty like Puff tends to work best for this. If you haven't, I suggest you do so. You'll likely notice that without really rushing down in any way the Sheik is probably pushing the other character to the edge a lot. And the other character seems to be half trying to attack Sheik but half scouting for things and it's unclear what cue they're waiting for. In a very general way, this represents defense vs. defense in Melee in a basic but accurate manner. Defense vs defense in Melee tends to revolve around the stronger defense engulfing the weaker one and consequently pressing it back. That might sound weird, think of it this way: Sheik generally presents a better pokerface at the end of the lead ins that most competing characters use when they are attempting to play footsie. Because her opponent cannot seem to find an angle wherein they can press into Sheik productively, they face a simple dilemma: forfeit some stage ownership by moving back or take a risk attacking? Since this is defense vs defense, we'll assume they choose the former. At this point, if the Sheik is good, they'll obersve the positional shift, move forward a bit in response, and then continue to do exactly what they were doing to win combat exchanges (accounting for new obstacles like maybe a side platform that is now relevant).

The main thing to take from this is that whenever someone encounters something they cannot engage effectively or directly, they tend to back up and try to mold combat to avoid that situation from reoccurring or attempt to accommodate the challenges presented by the challenge they're currently dealing with ineffectively (very common with low tier characters). This, incidentally, is basically Falco vs everyone because his main poke is a giant laser. And that *****. Good game, Smashboards.

...Okay, that's too simplistic. But the gist is that the opponent can't really engage the laser itself effectively what with it being an enormous projectile hitbox that outright beats every relevant attack but Sheik's needles and some breath attacks directly and stuns for long enough that it hinders dash oriented strategies and also sometimes leads to death. I'm gonna relate this now to a competing defender for cohesion with the first paragraph. If Falco is fighting Sheik, her inability to interact with the laser causes a lot of Sheiks to attempt to play in spite of it by fighting in a range where Falco's SHL can't guarantee him a free aerial approach because they've put so much space between themselves and Falco that the laser doesn't allow Falco to dash SH aerial before Sheik can dash away or f-tilt immediately. To attempt to give this strategy some validity as a go-to, they'll use their shield and WD back to flirt inside the laser > SH aerial range but then duck out immediately. They'll do this often and in general their positioning will be done in a way that tries to look as ambiguous as possible.

So you should notice a few things. One, Sheik gives up tons of space using this strategy because she's being out-defended. Second, this strategy basically depends on Falco committing to something like a misplaced SH attack, which is basically a reflection of greed. From that you can discern the counter is to simply continue to position yourself better since there's no reason to take a risk like approaching SH aerial against ambiguous safe spacing because although hitting that aerial would be nice, you can get a bunch of hits so much more easily if they don't abandon the strategy immediately with virtually no risk. The positioning and supporting movements the opponent has to do to maintain that spacing basically makes them constantly back up so they're never really doing anything threatening because they're focused on waiting for you to do something dumb. So just don't do something dumb. Since you're always holding onto actions, rolls into you and other garbage are surprisingly easy to punish. Shield is also really **** for Falco here because panic attacks into his shield are free shines for 800%+ damage.

Anyway, once an opposing character is backed up at the edge, you can just shoot and wait for the action they take to try and fix their position. And there isn't much a lot of characters can do about this if you are diligent with your spacing. This also where fading with your lasers or simply not moving forward a big distance with them (inch forward so you exert your f-tilt and other pokes but retain the options you need to punish rolls and crap) plays a huge component of the footsie occurring in this style of combat sequence because of the offensive positioning it gives Falco access to while retaining basically his whole option suite (notice a recurrent theme yet?). In general people really do not value how Falco's f-tilt fills a lot of holes in his game in various combat situations and as a move that combos from laser, sends sideways, has some semblance of range, and isn't grab.

I don't feel like going over Falco vs characters (Fox) on platforms right now.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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If you've ever watched a defensive Sheik that isn't M2K fight against a high level opponent you'll notice her defense kind of pushes the opponent away because of how good it is. The opponent often can't find a good way to engage it, so they keep having to back up. That's basically Falco vs everyone because the opponent can't really engage the laser itself effectively what with it being an enormous hitbox that beats every relevant attack but Sheik's needles directly and stuns for long enough that it hinders dash oriented strategies and also sometimes leads to death. This causes a lot of Sheiks and stuff to play in a range where Falco's SHL can't guarantee him a free aerial approach. They'll try to make this as ambiguous as possible. The counter is of course to simply position yourself better since there's no reason to take a risk like that because the positioning and complimentary movements the opponent has to do to maintain that spacing basically makes them constantly back up so they're never really doing anything threatening because they're focused on waiting for you to do something dumb. So just don't do something dumb.

Once they're backed up at the edge, you can just shoot and wait for the action they take to try and fix their position. This is also where fading with your lasers or simply not moving forward a big distance with them (inch forward so you exert your f-tilt and other pokes but retain the options you need to punish rolls and crap) is super pro because of the offensive positioning it gives you while retaining basically your whole option suite (notice a recurrent theme yet?). In general people really do not value how Falco's f-tilt fills a lot of holes in his game in various combat situations and as a move that combos from laser, sends sideways, has some semblance of range, and isn't grab.

Are you basically saying Falco players should just play by Hax's "don't approach" theory? I don't want to accidentally strawman you so correct me where I'm wrong, but following the logic of your posts, I don't really see any reason Falco would have to approach as long as he doesn't simply get out-DDed in between lasers. I can certainly believe that I'm too far onto the aggressive side of the Falco spectrum, and I've been trying to add more patient DDing into my game in between lasers and SHFFLs, but I feel like if I never took opportunities to approach, especially when they are pinned at the ledge, then my opponents would just start throwing hitboxes at me for trades (which almost universally suck for Falco) or WDing OoS then running up, back into shield right when they get in my face. Once they shield in my face, they force me to back up because I won't have the horizonal momentum to keep safe laser spacing (the front of shine's hitbox is almost nonexistent, and jab mixups are dangerous and unreliable), and I won't be able to defensively aerial without the threat of shield grab or other OoS options with decent range. This method of pushing Falco back was actually being discussed in the Fox forums, so I don't think I'm imagining this phenomenon.

I do incorporate ftilt a decent amount, but I guess the biggest deterrence I have from using it is that it doesn't knock down or even have decent stun. So I will have no problem laser-ftilting a Fox into an edgeguard situation at 70%+, but before that it just seems like high risk for a small % reward (and occasionally forcing a panic option out of them). Do you think dtilting could be used similarly at those lower percents? It obviously has less range and a lot less coverage for any jumping options they may use, but I figure I'd only be doing it after successfully trapping them on the ground with a laser anyway. Where do ftilt/dtilt options come into play if the opponent shields the laser? Do I just need to be able to hit confirm the laser (doesn't seem possible), only use them spaced where I won't get counterattacked by OoS options (also doesn't seem possible because both tilts have decent lag), or should I only try it when I know the laser will hit (if they are in the air or in lag on the ground)?
 

KirbyKaze

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I don't believe in something so absolute as, "Never approach!" That said, I think a heuristic like, "Don't go in swinging with a SH aerial when the opponent is trying to pretend that they're vulnerable to it but aren't really as a result of the immense space they've put between themselves and you to ensure that you can't chase a laser effectively," is probably reasonable. And then I gave a bunch of ways of identifying if they are doing just that.

Regarding approaching in a bit more of a general sense... I'm gonna level with you, I'm not really sure what constitutes approaching at this point in the game's development and I don't really care either. It's always seemed like a big, vague, poorly-defined umbrella term that has been modified within each region to some degree, which results in delicious lapses in clarity in these discussions. As a side note, it was also adopted by WC and therefore is now part of the Gamma Fraternity.

I feel that throwing SH aerials at an opponent pinned at the edge can be an effective choice certainly but like any other play it sports its flaws. I feel in general the high momentum approaching SH aerial vs a pinned opponent is misunderstood because I don't view it as really that strong. I actually do have a soft spot for forward SHs that pull back or cut momentum to control a tighter space, but whenever you take a big swing at the opponent to close distance and reach them from further with your jump, you're radically shifting the part of the stage you exert most presence over. This can work agaisnt you because moving the reach of your character so that it overlaps the foe's current position so much can run into snags if they spot you repositioning by attacking them and they roll through you. This sounds goofy, but it actually can happen (hell, I think it's amazing and needs to be used more) and is a reasonable outcome because SH aerial doesn't take much less time than roll at all and Falco's dash is slow. The good position you had to systematically remove their options has now been flipped on you. In general Fox is the better gimper of the two as well, and is very good at gimping Falco, which means he enjoys Falco being pinned almost as much as vice versa. Creating opportunities for reversals like that to happen are a good way to weaken the consistency in your game.

That said, I don't think it's so cut and dry either. I think Falco's approach in this instance shines where he uses lower momentum dash SH aerial setups to condition the foe to not roll inwards because by pulling back during the SH or simply using reduced momentum he's protecting the roll in option but also moving forward a reasonable chunk. Moreover, there's nothing that says you have to fade back before you catch the roll. You could approach and see the reversal being attempted and cut momentum then, which still enables a degree of approaching while tending to the fact that dynamic, long jump ins are generally most useful for stuffing opposing aerials and a variety of positional things such as hitting a retreating opponent (not an option vs people pinned at edge) or crossing up a shield. Part of the fun of Falco is getting the opponent at the edge so you can get rid of the need to do all that work to get a hit. That's all legit fighting and I try to avoid dealing in it whenever possible. If you want to play like that, I suggest you inquire with WC.

I think you can just hit confirm laser into a spaced f-tilt but I'm not sure what the timing window is like. I think we may have had a communication slip up somewhere too because I'm not really a fan of f-tilting into someone's shield if I can help it. I just know that tipped f-tilt combos from laser vs human opponents and conveniently tipped f-tilt isn't very easy (or sometimes even possible) to shield grab, making it a safer way to attempt to prod an opponent offstage. It's also much faster than the go-to options (bair) and can be done facing the foe. These lead to interesting little games in and of themselves.



edit:

I think your first combo should generally do more than 70% vs Fox if you want to be competitive in this game at this point in its development (the exceptions would be when you end with a smash attack trying to create a gimp / edgeguard or they have a really good SDI somewhere). That said, I think d-tilt and d-smash are excellent choices. D-tilt is nice at low percents because it leads to some interesting combos involving uairs and such that can create some good trajectory traps. And it's kind of cheating to ask if a combo move would be a good choice somewhere it is possibly viable in a hit sequence with me. Kind of like asking an alcoholic if they want scotch instead of grape juice at communion.

That said, I mentioned f-tilt specifically because I think it's overlooked a lot for heavier moves that seemingly give more of a bang for their buck. So I figured I'd talk about it because it's a move that rewards creativity IMO, has some unique traits to it (some mentioned earlier in this post), and the way it seems to feed and benefit from all the stress this character can impose upon his opponent (in really sick ways) creates unique openings and cool stuff is always more fun than d-tilt into aerial or shine WL aerial.

Anyway, let's start with KB. You say the low KB means that f-tilt doesn't accomplish much until it knocks down but I say the low knockback makes it good for gimping (both the setup and the finish) and the fact that you can tip it into most characters' shields as a way to see if you can poke them off the level without having to worry about an l-cancel can add a lot of consistency around the edge without compromising much threat. You can also probably get people offstage at trajectories they're not used to DJ sweetspotting at, opening up SH dair gimps or WD FF edgehog > react to recovery type situations. It also lightly pushes people out of that awkward space in front of and above Falco's head when you angle it up - a lot of characters take to impromptu desperation jumps and such because of their perception of Falco being vulnerable there. You can actually draw people into attacking that part of him just by facing them (remember to kick them though!) whereas if you'd turned your back to them in that same position you might have encountered a very passive, safe opponent and not gotten the free hit (and maybe a gimp or such?) since backwards Falco is stereotyped as the defensively strong one. People respect that guy.

This last bit is sort of a gimmick but also not. Sometimes when you don't knock an opponent over when they're waiting for an opportunity to counterattack, they jump the gun on committing to the counterattack because they tunnel vision on the fact that they can do it after being hit without realizing that they have been pushed out of range of their counterattack because they were at like 55% and hit by tipped f-tilt. This can be especially true when your character makes people feel like they're out of control of the pace of the game so much. The awesome part is that if they're pushed out of counterattack range, even without knocking them over there's nothing really stopping you from simply attacking them from there with a SH aerial, more f-tilt, etc. because it's easy as hell to make his aerials frame safe and if you poke or grab... well, those tend to be good vs disrupted, stationary foes anyway.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
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Feb 26, 2013
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KK just write a book for melee. i would like to see what you have to say about every character

Edit: sorry if i have been acting stupid guy. i haven't been reading posts because it is a force of habit for me and i don't like usually like reading long posts.
 
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