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~~Official Link Metagame Discussion~~

Zezima0123

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
176
Location
Abbotsford, BC
Plank was a popular Sheik melee player who capatalizes on ledge stalling in Brawl. Some people support what he's doing because they hate Brawl, others say his actions will get the act of ledge-stalling (now called "Planking" in his honor) banned, even more hate him for his deliberate showing of Brawl's flaws.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8&feature=related

This is a video of Plank playing Brawl.

The more you know!
oh okay! thanks! hm...
 

Deva

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
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Location
Spokane, Wa
What was even funnier was when Mike Haze used it against him for a whole match and Beat Plank first round of their set. Now called the "Mikehaze" xD. Basically letting go of the stage with Marth, fairing, and up-bing again. He's invincible for almost the enitre set up. Of course Mike isnt' a complete d!ck so he quit after the first match and ended up losing the set xD. It was hilarrious to see if you were there though, Plank gettin planked xD.

I guess I should stick Plank next on my list for "wtf, how did I just lose to a Link in tournament using MK?????" lulz. Only becuase Link can actually counter that kinda ledge stalling lol.
 

NintenJoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
893
Location
Chicago, Illinois
I guess I should stick Plank next on my list for "wtf, how did I just lose to a Link in tournament using MK?????" lulz. Only becuase Link can actually counter that kinda ledge stalling lol.
with bombs? maybe if ledge-stalling isn't banned, then Link will rise through the tier list...

Pro-Planking!!!
 

Plairnkk

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
10,243
What was even funnier was when Mike Haze used it against him for a whole match and Beat Plank first round of their set. Now called the "Mikehaze" xD. Basically letting go of the stage with Marth, fairing, and up-bing again. He's invincible for almost the enitre set up. Of course Mike isnt' a complete d!ck so he quit after the first match and ended up losing the set xD. It was hilarrious to see if you were there though, Plank gettin planked xD.

I guess I should stick Plank next on my list for "wtf, how did I just lose to a Link in tournament using MK?????" lulz. Only becuase Link can actually counter that kinda ledge stalling lol.
i would never ever ever lose to a link :p
 

Ritch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
217
Location
Paterson, New Jersey
Lol you guys should be glad, c'mon it's Falco getting beat up :D.

But yea, in a competitive game, there is no 'honor' it's for cash, I can't really blame their attitude/style of fighting, but I do dislike it though.
this

i mean, you did pay for the tourney, why waste your money? ;D
 

Deva

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,704
Location
Spokane, Wa
Dude, if someone won a national tourney with Link I'm pretty sure everyone would quit Brawl lmao.
 

NintenJoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
893
Location
Chicago, Illinois
Dude, if someone won a national tourney with Link I'm pretty sure everyone would quit Brawl lmao.
I'll be rooting for you Deva!!!!

How epic would that be? All the best Links, Deva, Arkive, Finns, Legan, Izaw, Kalm, etc. (sorry if I forgot youuuu) repping Link at a national tourney. I would probably s*** myself.
 

sasook

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
2,338
Location
New York
Don't forget Blubba.

I would definitely lose in the first round, but I'd go just to show all you Link mains how to freakin' bombslide lol
 

Deva

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,704
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Spokane, Wa
But that's the point, we can't actually win a tournament or else the brawl community would cease to exist. We just have to come really close but stay just enough away so that the game stays strong =P.
 

NintenJoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
893
Location
Chicago, Illinois
I would definitely lose in the first round, but I'd go just to show all you Link mains how to freakin' bombslide lol
Plank is to ledge stalling as Sasook is to bombslides.

We should just call bombslides Sasooks from now on like ledge-stalling is called planking.
 

sasook

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
2,338
Location
New York
XD, heck yeah, I'm known for something lol


Although I'm having a bit of trouble lately. I can't seem to the do fakeouts anymore....they always come out the direction Link throws......whether that's a good thing or not, I'm still deciding.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
How useless could it be. I mean yea its inferior to DACIT but its a different type of spacing you get. Can you not do anything with that?

(O I mastered every bomb slide except for the reverse 1. Still workin on that. I'll put in some time tomorrow.)

(Want to know why I'm really ashamed? I ****ing run the Q&A. I update the FAQ. I just had a complete failure. Couldn't even follow my own ****.)

Now I know how useless the search thread is if you don't know the name of what your looking for.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
Now you see why I normally say **** it and make a new thread anyways.

But I get put down for it.

Anyways, it's inferior to DACIT and you should really just learn to DACIT.

The only possible use it could have is if you want to not move from your current position (such as a platform, like the Smashville one)

It's pretty useless overall, and I personally would rather jump and throw the bomb.

:mewtwo:
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
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Chicago
The only possible use it could have is if you want to not move from your current position (such as a platform, like the Smashville one)
this is why I was thinking it might have use. You could just move out of the way throw the bomb and be in range for an F-smash or something.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
It's not really even a bombslide.

DACIT is still better, and jumping allows for more aerial mobility.

If you don't want to get much distance out of it, why don't you just do the (basically non-existan; but still there
t) glide toss?

:mewtwo:
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
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Jun 4, 2008
Messages
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Chicago
I guess we all have opinions. And your entitled to yours.

I bet a lot of Links didn't even consider using JCT as a substitute to bomb sliding.


Come on Link mains speak up. I'm interested in what you have to say.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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Everyone's probably asleep for the most part...

And JCT gives a small slide, nothing compared to DACIT, and defiantly won't replace it.

If you're using it as a replacement to bthrow from a run, you can 'glide toss' that, and some may find that even easier because you don't have to jump and throw quickly.

:mewtwo:
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
776
Location
sweden
dont replace bombslides with JC thrown bombs, its far from the same thing, f throw bombslides makes a lot of pressure on the opponent becuase you can reach with your master sword after it, uthrow is hard to read cause of the slide, reversed gives so much distance(I prefer to do other things than reversed bombslides when in the situation for it, cause I fail to often when reverse bombsliding). its not the same thing.
 

Onomanic

Heaven Piercer
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,263
Location
Westwood, NJ
Not a fan for Link's DACIT, I'll stick with bombslides. However, I do want to pick up Ikes. That looks interesting. But for the most part, I'm not terribly keen to change. :/
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
Not a fan for Link's DACIT, I'll stick with bombslides. However, I do want to pick up Ikes. That looks interesting. But for the most part, I'm not terribly keen to change. :/
DACIT and bombslide are the same exact thing.

So how about that boomerang data?

The Conditions is spacing (which has to do with launcher speed, in mph)

I believe the launcher speed has to be over 2800 (haven't gotten it lower) to knockdown. This normally requires your opponent to be jumping into the boomerang, or for you to be a set distance apart or closer. The maximum distance apart to reach 2800mph seems to be just larger then 1 "Bowser" length away, like a Bowser and 1-2 pikmin max.

So you should be able to just TIP them with Fsmash, and thats the range assuming neither of you are moving, I won't go into the mathematics for "knockdown" with acceleration and movement in play, because it still just has to reach over 2800mph for Launcher speed, and I haven't quite worked out the mathematics for that yet.

Here's the data I gathered for the closest non-knockdown hit I could get (didn't try to many times), and the closest (therefore strongest) knockdown I could get (didn't try more then like 7 times)

Data said:
STRONG TOSSES:

Zelda:

2835mph - Knockdown (Near min?)

2361mph - No Knockdown

King DeDeDe:

2911mph - Knockdown (Near min?)

2197mph - No Knockdown

Game and Watch:

2879mph - Knockdown (Near min?)

2481mph - No Knockdown

Weak Tosses:

G&W:

2879pmh - Knockdown (Closer then SMASH TOSS!)

2481mph - No Knockdown

King D3:

2911 mph - Knockdown (Closer then Smash toss!)

2197mph - No Knockdown

Zelda:

2835mph - Knockdown (Closer then Smash Toss!)

2361mph - No Knockdown
As you can see, all 3 speeds were character based for knockdown, the type of toss did not matter because it requires the same amount of Launcher Speed to knock down the character, no matter what. These aren't the only 3 character I've tested, but they are the lightest, heavyweights, and a medium-lightweight. The MPH would only change slightly (ever so slightly) due to character weight. "Distance" doesn't matter to a degree, because if it knocks down it will always be the same Launcher Speed. However "Distance" plays a roll on how you REACH THAT LAUNCHER SPEED.

And as you can also see, The 3 speeds that didn't knockdown were below 2800mph, but those still need more testing.

The direction your opponent is knocked down in depends on where the boomerang hits. If you hit their right side, they will go left. If you hit their left side, they will go right. During certain animations (eg: Fox's dair endlag on ground) your opponent exposes their other-side hitbox to you, and you can hit them towards you. (eg2: Falco's fsmash) Now this is highly situational, but useful to know nontheless.

Condition 3 is strength thrown (ties in with condition 1) if you do a weak toss rather then a "smash"/strong toss, they need to be closer to you to be knocked down. The Launcher Speed however, remains the same. This means the distance is fixed, that weight affects Launcher Speed, and movement may affect Launcher Speed. (That last part needs more testing)

Again, the distance for a Smash Toss to KNOCKDOWN is about 1 "Bowser" length away, while a "weak toss" is about 1 "Mario" away. That's a huge difference for spacing!

tl;dr Lot's of data that shows only 2 things matter: Spacing and which side you hit.

EDIT:

Oh, and in case you don't check Swordplay's userpage often enough (or ever) here's the giant rant he got from me.

Havok on Swordplays Page in response to something said:
Just showing why I got pissed.

Search function is epic fail unless you know pretty much EXACTLY what you're looking for, it's so time consuming, you could have just made the thread, got a little discussion, if its known let it die, if not good, by the time you go through all possibly searches. Search function is next-to-useless if you don't know what you're looking for.

Not taking it out on you, I'm sure you saw the metagame discussion thread right after you posted that, hence the "Ignore that.", but I'm proving a point. Making a new thread out of being excited/finding a new or interesting fact/trying to bring something LESS KNOWN and make it MORE KNOWN happens to the best of us.

I mean, you run the Q&A, you're first thought when posting that is "should I post this in the Q&A", but you didn't. You realize you didn't, and you acknowledge that you didn't, which only further proves my above point. Also, things like that when posted in the Q&A or metagame discussion, only get talked about for a page, if that before they are forgotten about again, or not cared for.

IMO, Q&A's should stick to questions, if the answers "no", threads should be made, and the metagame discussion should stick to things EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT, not "what may be" a discovery.

I've posted some things in metagame discussions, that simply dissapear off the face of the earth. That's why I run the Snake Metagame thread like I do, I post things to test/people post things to test, and it's all in the first post. Easy to find, easy to check, nothing, nothing get's overlooked or missed.

Also, Arkive doesn't have to be a **** to me for no god**** reason. I've made like 5 threads about things? 2 of them were "deemed useless" by everyone but me, I still use it to this day with my Link, and I've even won 2 of my King of WiFi matches due to using them. But you know, "They're useless"..... For my other 3 threads, it was the bomb thread - only known by Sasook it seemed like. I sure as hell had no clue about it, and I'm sure many of the other Link Main's had no **** clue about it. The edgedropped bomb edgeguard is actually USEFUL for Link, and I've already started to incorperate it into my game, in fact I've stagespiked a few Falco's and Fox's thanks to it. It's made those two matchups quite a bit easier for me.

For the Grab Release stuff, it's ALWAYS nice to know you have those options. If you see the Wario make a mistake and Jump Break, thats a free move and possibly KO. But as always, it's deemed "useless" by seemingly everyone.

My BACL (which was highly overlooked) was also deemed "non-practical" and "Border-line useless" but guess what. I pull off a BACL (or just a boomerang arrow lock, not arrow canceling) AT LEAST 3 times a MATCH when I'm Link. If it's so god**** "impractical" how come I pull it off nearly every game? I even pull it off MULTIPLE TIMES in the King of WiFi battles.

It's also a GUARENTEED % or KO at ANY % because of the special knockback of the Gale Boomerang, and the locking affect of an arrow. You can BACL > run Up > Jump Cancel Up-B. Guess what, Up-B is almost ALWAYS fresh, and I get this at the edge OFTEN. I get KO's at around 70% thanks to the BACL, where otherwise the match would go to 140%, possibly 160%. But you know, it's "useless and impractical".

I'm just sick of the Link Boards being so closed minded, I never see them accept anything new and hence the metagame really doesn't evolve much. If you ever took a look at the Snake Boards, you'd see why I'm a Snake BRoomer, why I'm the "Snake President" and all of the neat **** I find and do for them, how "outside the box" I think.

But nope. No Link mains do that. That's why I'm leaving.

/end rant.
:mewtwo:
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
This is the exact reason I made that DACIT == BOMBSLIDE thread.

Not as a joke, but because I was going to refer to Bombslides as a DACIT from then on, that way people knew what I was talking about.

After all, useless thread is useless.

JC'd Throws are easier but by no means better.

Also, if you know how and you just practice, it takes 15-20 minutes max to master how to perform it. Implicating it and adding it to your game is obviously going to take longer. Do you use it to space? Suprise bomb throws while retreating? A bomb throw while approaching? It depends on how you like to use it, and what works.

:mewtwo:
 

Finns7

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
896
Havokk how the hell did you know about the gale knockdown direction, I wanted to know this for the longest.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
When I was making my Link combo video, I saw that right as Falco landed from the air, I hit him with the boomerang and he bounced towards me.

Watching my video in 1/2 speed showed me that it hit the "back of his neck" in his landing animation.

This got me to start testing how people got knocked down. Through testing, I was only able to replicate it during very specific animations, or special hitboxes. Generally hitting an airborne targets feet while you're on the ground knocks them towards you. That's because for some reason the feet count as a 'backside' hitbox most of the time.

Things like Falco's Fsmash (when you can hit his neck) will knock him towards you. Fox's dair endlag animation will knock him towards you, etc.

ps:
I've known since October. I just don't share that much crap with the Link boards because of what I mentioned. Everything I say gets rejected (some things, like the Wario grab release I can understand), but I'm talking about everything. I'm certain I could find a way to 100% kill the entire cast with an easy to do 0-death combo, and people would ignore it.

:mewtwo:
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
Yea, I'm double posting, get over it.

Something from Kupo (of the Pit boards) for you.

Me too.
And as it stands, I am still looking for a post from the opposing side to answer my question.

Why would you not want to learn an AT that has been proven Useful in someone else's game? If they encounter these situations, then you will too which means you can utilize the tech. to work for you.

No one has yet to counter this statement.

Basically:

If it works for someone else in situations, why wouldn't it work for you?

tl;dr

If someone says its useful, give it a shot and apply it. The more versatile you become, the less predictable you become, the better player you become.

:mewtwo:
 

sasook

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
2,338
Location
New York
I bet a lot of Links didn't even consider using JCT as a substitute to bomb sliding.
Arkive's been saying it as long as I've been encouraging bombslides.

Not a fan for Link's DACIT, I'll stick with bombslides.
DACIT and bombslide are the same exact thing.
^rofl

jump cancelled bombs are easier to learn

Bombslides do not take 15 minutes to master

IDK wat a DACIT is
This is the exact reason I made that DACIT == BOMBSLIDE thread.

Not as a joke, but because I was going to refer to Bombslides as a DACIT from then on, that way people knew what I was talking about.

After all, useless thread is useless.

JC'd Throws are easier but by no means better.

Also, if you know how and you just practice, it takes 15-20 minutes max to master how to perform it. Implicating it and adding it to your game is obviously going to take longer. Do you use it to space? Suprise bomb throws while retreating? A bomb throw while approaching? It depends on how you like to use it, and what works.

:mewtwo:
I agree with NintenJoe that it takes longer than 15 minutes, but...I also had to experiment a lot. Like Havokk said, if you know how and you just practice it'll probably take a lot less time. I had no idea what to do, found out everything through self-experimentation.

Havokk how the hell did you know about the gale knockdown direction, I wanted to know this for the longest.
Havokk pwns on boomerang data. Izaw is to gold as Deva is to spacing as Havokk is to boomerang data.
 

Onomanic

Heaven Piercer
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,263
Location
Westwood, NJ
DACIT is just a stupid word :p I like the word bombslides since it's been around longer.


Not a fan of change.


WHERE DID 2008 GO?! D:<
 
Joined
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Messages
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I stick to bombslides as well(with other word no renaming to DACIT), we were first wernt we? And bombslides and JC thrown bombs has not the same applications. I know cause I use both.
 
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