Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Kewkky]

Shame. Only reliable way to kill an gimp requires death...

Fixed.

Oh, you were right about one thing, it requires Death... But you forgot about the other one: The element of Surprise! And I'm not being sarcastic btw, I'm serious here.

 

[:mad:]

Sorry, but you're not going to land a Dair on Meta Knight. Shuttle Loop's just that good. You'll end up getting stagespiked.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I know that Metaknight doesn't counter us (hence why I say 40-60 rather than 35-65), and that we have moves and abilities that mitigate some of Metaknight's advantages against us, but what advantage do we have on him that mitigates all the others? I haven't seen anything posted except ways to deal with some of the things that he does. What tools do we as Kirbys have that give us any kind of edge on MK to counter the advantages that MK has on us? Until I see that post, I will continue to have no idea why people would think that this MU is close to even.

@Retro: Why is it so hard to believe t1mmy? And before you say something like "he doesn't play Kirby anymore" consider that he and t0mmy are some of my regular sparing/traveling partners.

 

[|RK|]

Alright, alright, let's start with a few lists here:

1.) How Does D-Air Comping Harm Kirby (specific)

2.) How Does Shuttle Loop Harm Kirby (specific)

I don't know all, so I can't make these lists.

 

[:mad:]

Dair camping negatively affect Kirby because it gives him literally no options to approach.

Shuttle Loop in bad for Kirby because it kills him. I'm serious, it's a very good killer and one of his best moves.

Matchup is 60:40. We're doneeee.

 

[thrillagorilla]

OK, I should have been more clear. Sorry about that. When I'm speaking of tools, I mean what can our character do to put Metaknight in a bad situation without requiring him to make an error in spacing first? How can we rack damage without needing to punish? Everything so far is a list-out of how to react to him rather than what to do against him first. Unless there is something that we can do on the offensive, then we are at a disadvantage. I really don't think there is much more to say.

@Straked: Agreed.

 

[Kewkky]

Dair camping negatively affect Kirby because it gives him literally no options to approach.

Shuttle Loop in bad for Kirby because it kills him. I'm serious, it's a very good killer and one of his best moves.

Matchup is 60:40. We're doneeee.

As long as it's not a preposterous 65:35, I'm good. Anything below that yet above even (that's a reasonable number, 64:36 isn't one) I can agree with........ Even though i still believe it to be closer to even.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I guess the only thing left to do is wait for A1 then... Still, if people have something they want to say, then I'd like to hear it.

 

[Retroend]

I know that Metaknight doesn't counter us (hence why I say 40-60 rather than 35-65), and that we have moves and abilities that mitigate some of Metaknight's advantages against us, but what advantage do we have on him that mitigates all the others? I haven't seen anything posted except ways to deal with some of the things that he does. What tools do we as Kirbys have that give us any kind of edge on MK to counter the advantages that MK has on us? Until I see that post, I will continue to have no idea why people would think that this MU is close to even.

@Retro: Why is it so hard to believe t1mmy? And before you say something like "he doesn't play Kirby anymore" consider that he and t0mmy are some of my regular sparing/traveling partners.

ok, 1st of all, i wasn't going to say he doesn't play kirby anymore. i know he plays kirby. what i can't believe is why he still says that its 60-40. yes, in one of my earlier post, i said that it was 60-40 only because i can't seem to convince anyone that its still 55-45. and of course all those prideful meta mainers would disagree as well.

 

[Master Raven]

tsrhrjjyuykregh

6-4 MK

 

[|RK|]

Dair camping negatively affect Kirby because it gives him literally no options to approach.

Shuttle Loop in bad for Kirby because it kills him. I'm serious, it's a very good killer and one of his best moves.

Matchup is 60:40. We're doneeee.

I know that, but taht isn't a very good list.

As for D-Air camping, I don't believe that. Otherwise it would be impossible to win.

 

[fromundaman]

Our grab is longer but slower

We fall slower and we have better horizontal air speed.

What can we do with this (although MK is faster, has a faster airdodge, we almost the same jump height as him, almost same weight, etc...)?

Ummm... despite what that thread says, I know for a fact from personal testing and in-game experience that we have a shorter but faster standing grab range than MK.

Also, our AD is faster if we DI backwards.
Pretty sure MK has better horizontal air speed too.

But it's still pretty darn hard to gimp a good Kirby. Once a set is more likely. And if you suicide you can gimp an MK. As in just keep hitting him on the way down. If you're Falco just lock him on the way down.

Shame. Only reliable way to kill an MK requires death...

Ummm... not really. MK gimps Kirby pretty **** well, as do other good gimping characters.
Also, Gimping MK is not impossible, just very hard and not worth the risk.

Sorry, but you're not going to land a Dair on Meta Knight. Shuttle Loop's just that good. You'll end up getting stagespiked.

Ummm... you do know Dair beats SL if you space it correctly, right?


Also, TG, Dair camping is one of those times when we limit MK's options. ironic, I know, but we do. As I said, shielding the Dairs forces him to keep retreating and using jumps, and in the end makes his landing unsafe.
In fact, being under MK ONSTAGE is generally a great place for Kirby to be.

Also, shielding a SL, as was stated before, opens up a lot of options on our end.

So yeah, in a way, what we can do is very dependent on what MK does, but at the same time, we have the tools to punish most actions he makes, often much harder than he punishes us. This is why I'd say it's somewhere between 45-55, though since we probably won't put that as the ratio anyway, I guess I'll just agree to disagree.



Also, to everyone: Stop claiming the other side is wrong because they are too prideful. That's just ********...

 

[thrillagorilla]

ok, 1st of all, i wasn't going to say he doesn't play kirby anymore. i know he plays kirby. what i can't believe is why he still says that its 60-40. yes, in one of my earlier post, i said that it was 60-40 only because i can't seem to convince anyone that its still 55-45. and of course all those prideful meta mainers would disagree as well.

Sorry, I shouldn't have put it that way. That said though, I haven't seen why it should be 45-55 or 35-65. For the people that would say 35-65, keep in mind that Kirby can punish a number of things that Metaknight does very effectively and in some cases better than most characters.

Tornado: We can punish with multiple moves, including some even after the move has started if you SDI up due to Kirby's light weight.

Shuttle loop: The initial hit box is a problem, but we have a number of things that can clank with the glide attack and we can punish the landing lag.

Also, we have effective kill moves that kill at decent percents either off the top or horizontally, so Metaknight won't be living as long as he might against some other characters.

On the flip side, though, there isn't much we can do about dair camping into whatever he wants, off-stage gimps and his ability to break our combo moves effectively, so I can't say 45-55. Hence the 40-60 number a good amount of us are coming to.

@RK: Its kind of simple. We wait until MK is done and try to predict what he is going to do to land. There isn't much we can do while its happening though, aside from shield. We are still in a bad position either way.

Edit: @Fromundaman: lol at us coming to the same conclusions and coming up with different numbers. I still say 40-60. We have to respond in this MU and we can't be aggressive at all. We will always be on the defensive/reactionary side of the MU. Though we can punish, we are not Wario (who also holds a 45-55 against Metaknight). I'm not saying that we are countered or that we can't win. I'm saying we have a clear disadvantage.

 

[:mad:]

I've tried it before, but seeing how Dair is a drill, you can't follow up with a second one, properly spaced of course.

His shuttle loop will catch you on the second attempt if you don't land it perfectly.

But you're absolutely right.

 

[Retroend]

Sorry, I shouldn't have put it that way. That said though, I haven't seen why it should be 45-55 or 35-65. For the people that would say 35-65, keep in mind that Kirby can punish a number of things that Metaknight does very effectively and in some cases better than most characters.

Tornado: We can punish with multiple moves, including some even after the move has started if you SDI up due to Kirby's light weight.

Shuttle loop: The initial hit box is a problem, but we have a number of things that can clank with the glide attack and we can punish the landing lag.

Also, we have effective kill moves that kill at decent percents either off the top or horizontally, so Metaknight won't be living as long as he might against some other characters.

On the flip side, though, there isn't much we can do about dair camping into whatever he wants, off-stage gimps and his ability to break our combo moves effectively, so I can't say 45-55. Hence the 40-60 number a good amount of us are coming to.

@RK: Its kind of simple. We wait until MK is done and try to predict what he is going to do to land. There isn't much we can do while its happening though, aside from shield. We are still in a bad position either way.

Edit: @Fromundaman: lol at us coming to the same conclusions and coming up with different numbers. I still say 40-60. We have to respond in this MU and we can't be aggressive at all. We will always be on the defensive/reactionary side of the MU. Though we can punish, we are not Wario (who also holds a 45-55 against Metaknight). I'm not saying that we are countered or that we can't win. I'm saying we have a clear disadvantage.

eh, don't worry about it. either way i'm done discussing meta knight. i'll just go with 60-40, but every kirby player will have different experiences fighting mk. it all comes down to how you play and how you handle the situation. lets discuss the next character soon if we can.

 

[fromundaman]

Edit: @Fromundaman: lol at us coming to the same conclusions and coming up with different numbers. I still say 40-60. We have to respond in this MU and we can't be aggressive at all. We will always be on the defensive/reactionary side of the MU. Though we can punish, we are not Wario (who also holds a 45-55 against Metaknight). I'm not saying that we are countered or that we can't win. I'm saying we have a clear disadvantage.

Ehhh... the difference is, I see being offensive with Kirby as generally not being a good thing, hence why I find not being offensive in this matchup is not bad, but bah, for 5points, decide it how you will. (Also, most of our punishment options seem to be better than Wario's in this matchup IMO, minus the waft.)

 

[Kewkky]

Fromundaman, so far i have agreed with everything you've said, I pretty much do everything you say Kirby can do to MK. And it's true, I feel myself IMO that Kirby could do better than Wario, if not for the waft.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Ehhh... the difference is, I see being offensive with Kirby as generally not being a good thing, hence why I find not being offensive in this matchup is not bad, but bah, for 5points, decide it how you will. (Also, most of our punishment options seem to be better than Wario's in this matchup IMO, minus the waft.)

Kirby can't go offensive against most characters, which is why I think a lot of MUs need a re-discuss. Kirby's Meta-game may not have changed much, but characters are finding ways out of our traps and combos, making our punishes less powerful. As to Wario, I was trying to point out that his airspeed combined with his areal options allows for him to go on the offensive against MK. He may not be able to do it very often, but it makes it so he isn't required to punish all the time. This mitigates some of his disadvantages against MK, and the MU balances out. We just flat out don't have that.

 

[fromundaman]

Kirby can't go offensive against most characters, which is why I think a lot of MUs need a re-discuss. Kirby's Meta-game may not have changed much, but characters are finding ways out of our traps and combos, making our punishes less powerful. As to Wario, I was trying to point out that his airspeed combined with his areal options allows for him to go on the offensive against MK. He may not be able to do it very often, but it makes it so he isn't required to punish all the time. This mitigates some of his disadvantages against MK, and the MU balances out. We just flat out don't have that.

Yeah, I guess that's true... We can go through/punish all of MK's approach options though, so the same could be said of MK (which is why offensive MKs tend to be easier to beat than defensive ones).
The only real difference is that he has more options than us, and therefore it's easier for him to keep us guessing.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Yeah, I guess that's true... We can go through/punish all of MK's approach options though, so the same could be said of MK (which is why offensive MKs tend to be easier to beat than defensive ones).
The only real difference is that he has more options than us, and therefore it's easier for him to keep us guessing.

Underlined/bolded portion is the key. There is very little we can do against a defensive Metaknight, because we can't attack very well. Top it off with the fact that our moves get overridden by most of his rather than trading, then you have some serious problems. I'd be all for 45-55 if all Metaknights played offensively only. The unfortunate fact of the matter, however, is that any one that knows the Kirby MU won't be all offense. We can still win if we are patient, but it takes a lot more work from us than it does from the Metaknight player.

 

[:mad:]

Any suggestions on who we should start next? I was thinking Zelda, Wario, or Diddy.

My vote goes to Zelda since Allied suggested it and we have this voting process.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I like how some of us are trying to move on so quickly. XD

Get some more Metaknights in here first, I say. Besides, I thought we were just going to go down the list now. It would make sense considering that the snake boards are discussing us at the moment.

 

[:mad:]

We're at page 21, and we're in the middle of our second character. Not a single person objects to the ratio, nor do the Meta Knights.

But if you insist...

 

[thrillagorilla]

lol. We haven't been on Metaknight that long, people have just been posting a lot (there's been a lot of Kirby traffic today ). We can move on if people think we should, I would just like to see more discussion. I made a rather overgeneralizing statement about Kirby being able to punish Metaknight when he lands from dair camping, for instance. I'd like to see discussion about what his options are and how we can take advantage of it. There are a lot of other scenarios to go over, too. I think we can come to a better agreement about the number rather than people feeling that they have to give up on their viewpoints due to majority if we talk things out. Better still, people who DON'T know the MU can get a better idea of how to handle it before they even have to face off. Yeah, it takes much more time, but I think it would be worth it. Its also why I would like to see the Metaknights in here. What are they most likely to do in a given situation, how would they punish and how can we avoid it, etc.

 

[Triple R]

I've tried it before, but seeing how Dair is a drill, you can't follow up with a second one, properly spaced of course.

His shuttle loop will catch you on the second attempt if you don't land it perfectly.

But you're absolutely right.

People should be trying to footstool after the drill, that is pretty basic. Try to get meta low and attack him then. Can't shuttle loop you if you get him low enough. Then he'll probably drill rush, which i don't really think you can beat out if it's coming straight up, maybe if you bair him from the side. Never been in that situation though.

 

[Kewkky]

People should be trying to footstool after the drill, that is pretty basic.

There are better ideas rather than just footstooling drill rushes, seriously... MKs drill directly towards the ledge (a bit under the stage's ground level to avoid fsmashes), so they grab the ledge before their drill ends and they're able to be footstooled, too.

Try to get meta low and attack him then. Can't shuttle loop you if you get him low enough.

How can we get him THAT low? SL goes a long way upwards, plus he takes care of us if we attempt to gimp/dair him.

Then he'll probably drill rush, which i don't really think you can beat out if it's coming straight up, maybe if you bair him from the side. Never been in that situation though.

1) The ability to go straight up with drillrush from very low altitudes is sadly nonexistent.
2) Fsmash beats MK's drill rush, always.
3) if he goes low enough, he'll try everything possible tor eturn to the stage, not attack you. He might even do a downB to try and get past you and reach the ledge from anywhere offstage, making it impossible to intercept him before he reaches the ledge (unless downB doesn't sweetspot the ledge... Then we can fsmash him).

 

[:mad:]

When does a Meta Knight offensively drill rush?

 

[thrillagorilla]

There are better ideas rather than just footstooling drill rushes, seriously... MKs drill directly towards the ledge (a bit under the stage's ground level to avoid fsmashes), so they grab the ledge before their drill ends and they're able to be footstooled, too.


How can we get him THAT low? SL goes a long way upwards, plus he takes care of us if we attempt to gimp/dair him.


1) The ability to go straight up with drillrush from very low altitudes is sadly nonexistent.
2) Fsmash beats MK's drill rush, always.
3) if he goes low enough, he'll try everything possible tor eturn to the stage, not attack you. He might even do a downB to try and get past you and reach the ledge from anywhere offstage, making it impossible to intercept him before he reaches the ledge (unless downB doesn't sweetspot the ledge... Then we can fsmash him).

Um, he was talking about our dair drill kewkky, not Metaknight's. XD

Edit: Good info on what we can do about the edge, though.

 

[fromundaman]

Underlined/bolded portion is the key. There is very little we can do against a defensive Metaknight, because we can't attack very well. Top it off with the fact that our moves get overridden by most of his rather than trading, then you have some serious problems. I'd be all for 45-55 if all Metaknights played offensively only. The unfortunate fact of the matter, however, is that any one that knows the Kirby MU won't be all offense. We can still win if we are patient, but it takes a lot more work from us than it does from the Metaknight player.

I both agree and disagree.

MK has trouble approaching us as well if we play defensively (though not as much as we do approaching him), and his main spacing tools (Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dair, though Dair is the exception to the rule) can all be beaten, with the exception of Dair, which returns us to the point of Dair camping I mentioned earlier like 4 times.


EDIT:

1) The ability to go straight up with drillrush from very low altitudes is sadly nonexistent.

While it's true that he can't go straight up, DR is still his best vertical recovery.



Also Straked, while we have had a lot of discussion, this thread hasn't been spending too long on each character, and the extra info we are getting from these discussions is much better than what we got last time around.
We don't need to finish our MU thread in a week.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I both agree and disagree.

MK has trouble approaching us as well if we play defensively (though not as much as we do approaching him), and his main spacing tools (Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dair, though Dair is the exception to the rule) can all be beaten, with the exception of Dair, which returns us to the point of Dair camping I mentioned earlier like 4 times.

Well then, what options do we have against these moves that can beat them out? Can you give examples? Also, when is the Metaknight going to be using those moves? We discussed dair quite a bit so far, so we can get to that one last.

 

[fromundaman]

A lot of MK's will space Fair to keep you away, and from there, they can do whatever when they land thanks to barely any landing lag.
Thing is, Bair can beat Fair if properly spaced or properly timed (Barely outranges it and can hit between the slashes, since they are not a continuous hit box), which can mess with that spacing tool.

Ftilt outranges the 1st two slashes of Ftilt and will thus beat it out. It might also beat out Dtilt, I honestly can't remember.

Inhale can also beat MK's Ftilt, but to be honest, it's not a good choice at all. It also beat Fair if they mispace it or you space it well enough to get the grab armor as you enter their sword range. Most of the time he goes straight to tumbling animation and for some reason, despite what you'd imagine, you don't take damage from his Fair.

Fsmash beats or trades hits with Dtilt, depending on your spacing, and beats the first two hits of Ftilt.

Bair/Fair also beats Dtilt, but will get beat by the first and last hit of Ftilt.

Air hammer also has laser priority, and in theory could beat some of these things, but in reality shall never hit. Same with the Cutter blade.

 

[thrillagorilla]

A lot of MK's will space Fair to keep you away, and from there, they can do whatever when they land thanks to barely any landing lag.
Thing is, Bair can beat Fair if properly spaced or properly timed (Barely outranges it and can hit between the slashes, since they are not a continuous hit box), which can mess with that spacing tool.

Ftilt outranges the 1st two slashes of Ftilt and will thus beat it out. It might also beat out Dtilt, I honestly can't remember.

Inhale can also beat MK's Ftilt, but to be honest, it's not a good choice at all. It also beat Fair if they mispace it or you space it well enough to get the grab armor as you enter their sword range. Most of the time he goes straight to tumbling animation and for some reason, despite what you'd imagine, you don't take damage from his Fair.

Fsmash beats or trades hits with Dtilt, depending on your spacing, and beats the first two hits of Ftilt.

Bair/Fair also beats Dtilt, but will get beat by the first and last hit of Ftilt.

Air hammer also has laser priority, and in theory could beat some of these things, but in reality shall never hit. Same with the Cutter blade.

OK, so how do we get into position to use those moves? Keep in mind that the timing and spacing needs to be perfect for them to work, and we don't control spacing 100%. IDK about some of that, though. I'd need to look at the frame data and do some range testing again to see if some of it is true. I am pretty sure that MK's f-tilt has more range than our f-tilt, and the third hit can be almost instantaneous if timed correctly, so the distance on the first two hits is almost negligible. Also, Metaknight can vary the timing on the hits of f-tilt, meaning that even if we do outrage him, he can bait and punish all in the same move.

 

[RoflWafflez]

Good info fromundaman, saved us some time. Again b-air is ur best friend here (as it almost always is) because it outranges/prioritizes a good part of his moves, when well-placed of course. And im pretty sure a f-smash angled upward beats a d-tilt, but i havent tested it...makes sense to me.

Not to mention our amazing u-tilt, which clashes with ALOT of MK's moves, INCLUDING his crazy fast d-smash. Throw out u-tilts frequently and u will clash with more attacks than u would think.
Also inhale beats his dash attack that he throws out often after throws or d-tilts, he just runs right into ur mouth.

Another thing, DONT swallow MK, ur tornado is beaten by his, and i think the hitboxes are smaller. Not worth it, especially since the Starshot under the stage->bair stagespike is a great option for quick kills on a MK.

 

[Lord Viper]

Another thing, DONT swallow MK, ur tornado is beaten by his, and i think the hitboxes are smaller. Not worth it, especially since the Starshot under the stage->bair stagespike is a great option for quick kills on a MK.

☆ True, but his Tornado power is also useful in some steps, just don't make him escape it or if he tries to DI out of it, just hurry and move out of the way. Plus if Kirby takes Meta Knight's power it helps the match up for him if Meta Knight is trying to gimp Kirby or string combos. ☆

☆ Man, this thread moves too fast. D= ☆

 

[fromundaman]

OK, so how do we get into position to use those moves? Keep in mind that the timing and spacing needs to be perfect for them to work, and we don't control spacing 100%. IDK about some of that, though. I'd need to look at the frame data and do some range testing again to see if some of it is true. I am pretty sure that MK's f-tilt has more range than our f-tilt, and the third hit can be almost instantaneous if timed correctly, so the distance on the first two hits is almost negligible. Also, Metaknight can vary the timing on the hits of f-tilt, meaning that even if we do outrage him, he can bait and punish all in the same move.

Very true, but I'm just saying it can/does.

Also, for the instantaneous Ftilt thing, you're thinking of Mach Ftilts, and I'm pretty sure they have to do a Dtilt first for that to work, which makes it incovenient to use unless it hits us or a shield, as you can punish after a whiffed 3rd hit.

Also, spacing/timing isn't too hard with some of those, especially Fair, although Ftilt will be the toughest to get around, followed closely by Dtilt.

There's a reason MK has the advantage here, but we can punish/beat a lot of his actions, and that's all I'm trying to show.

Not to mention our amazing u-tilt, which clashes with ALOT of MK's moves, INCLUDING his crazy fast d-smash. Throw out u-tilts frequently and u will clash with more attacks than u would think.

Ummm... no... MK has only three moves that CAN clank at all, with anything whatsoever, and those are Glide attack, Drill Rush and Tornado.

 

[RoflWafflez]

Lol very fast ^_^.

Yea the Nado can help in certain situations where the priority is a great plus, but for the long-run and the rest of the battle, ur gonna want ur inhale ability for many reasons. I guess it wouldnt hurt to use the Nado, but i wouldnt get it.

Edit: Uh fromundaman u know how many times ive clanked a d-smash with a MK that saved my ***? Enough to make me fall in love with u-tilt, because it can usually be repeated to knock him up for a combo after being clanked.

 

[fromundaman]

Here's the problem with nado: Only the 1st few hits have hitstun, then he can hit you from inside it. Basically, it won't help your recovery because just SUPPOSING he misses the Dair on you (which would just knock you out of it), then he can Nair you from inside and send you even farther out.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Very true, but I'm just saying it can/does.

Also, for the instantaneous Ftilt thing, you're thinking of Mach Ftilts, and I'm pretty sure they have to do a Dtilt first for that to work, which makes it incovenient to use unless it hits us or a shield, as you can punish after a whiffed 3rd hit.

Also, spacing/timing isn't too hard with some of those, especially Fair, although Ftilt will be the toughest to get around, followed closely by Dtilt.

There's a reason MK has the advantage here, but we can punish/beat a lot of his actions, and that's all I'm trying to show.



Ummm... no... MK has only three moves that CAN clank at all, with anything whatsoever, and those are Glide attack, Drill Rush and Tornado.

Like I said, I need to test first. It would also be great if Meta-mainers came in here to talk about the character, too. Great info to have though.

Fromundaman's 100% correct on clanking/clashing wafflez. Nothing but those three move can clank.

As for inhale, it has its... fair share of problems in this MU. I'll let fromundaman talk about it if he wants too... In any case, its off to work I go. I'll be back on some time tomorrow, so expect any replies then.

 

[RoflWafflez]

O_o maybe im just imagining what i want to believe...? I coulda sworn... I have try this, cuz im pretty **** sure ive done it before...i'll be back.

 

[fromundaman]

Edit: Uh fromundaman u know how many times ive clanked a d-smash with a MK that saved my ***? Enough to make me fall in love with u-tilt, because it can usually be repeated to knock him up for a combo after being clanked.

You and I are obviously not talking about the same game, or the same character, or something...



Also, inhale is very meh against MK... You'll catch him off guard if he's chasing you and you reverse buffer it (I'v hit with it more than you'd expect), but it's still not a great option, and not really useful for much more than racking damage. On top of that, we can get punished for swallow, inhale breaks (both grounded and aerial) and starshot.

As for Starshot under the stage to Bair... well, MK can react much faster than the time it takes us to end our starshot animation, let alone use another jump to turn around and Bair.