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[Kanelol]

Why can I moonwalk easier with Marth and Fox than with Falcon

:\

 

[Pi]

idk

i'm posing this question
and gonna answer it myself later if no one else has it
but any way

since you can't input the tech 'during' hitlag frames, what if you press R/L and hold it through the hitlag frames, will it read the R/L button as soon as you're not in hitlag frames or will the tech window start during hitlag frames or what bout dat

 

[KAOSTAR]

simple answer is your 20 frame window starts when you hit l/r all the way down. the window runs through the hitstop time and you can tech during asdi into the floor. so you need to input tech b4 hitstop and you actually tech after on the frame you asdi into the ground. wall teching is a bit different.

holding does nothing.lol

idk

i'm posing this question
and gonna answer it myself later if no one else has it
but any way

since you can't input the tech 'during' hitlag frames, what if you press R/L and hold it through the hitlag frames, will it read the R/L button as soon as you're not in hitlag frames or will the tech window start during hitlag frames or what bout dat

you can only start the tech window b4 or after hitstop.

if you press l/r all the way down 20 frames starts then. you cannot tech during hitstop, so moves with more stun are harder to tech because you must wait for it to end first which eats up your twenty frames.(floor only)

you basically have to input tech and then di. or di then hit tech (harder imo).

the more frames of hitstop a move has the more precise you must be aka inputting tech closer to being hit.

ie charge shot. 16 frames. easy to di, harder to stick tech. you only have 20-16 = 4 frames. you have to input tech within 4 frames of being hit or its impossible to stick tech.

to normal tech you have to make sure you haven't pressed l/r within 40 frames from the last time you pushed it.(if you miss the stick tech)

 

[Pi]

i knew all that

my question was though

if you press L/R all the way down during hitlag, and hold it, it WILL read shield, because you're holding the button, but I'm wondering if the tech window will come out, because it's being pressed all the way down, you just pressed it during hitlag, but you are holding it throughout the hitlag, and continue to hold it.


to give an example:

Samus chargeshots you
18 frames of hitlag

lets say you press R on frame 15 of the hitlag
And you hold it, and you don't let it go
-Will it read/start the tech window right after hitstun, because you are holding R?

also you mean 60 frames
beacuse once you press R
for 20 frames you'll tech
but for another 40 frames after that, you can't tech
so 60 frames since you pressed it

 

[KAOSTAR]

I answered that. if you press l/r all the way down you start the tech window.

if you press l/r all the way down during the hitstop you auto flub. holding it makes no difference. you must wait 40 frames b4 you can input the tech window again. 20 frames of a broken tech(or working if you activate b4/after hitstop) window, then 20 cool down which is standard after each full press.

you can shield almost all the way or l cancel with lighter presses, but all full presses equal tech window.

its only 40 frames in between l/r presses. 20 starts the tech window. its either broken or working. 20 after. if you press l/r during an active or broken tech window you start a 20 frame broken tech window....followed by 20 cool down.

 

[Pi]

So you're saying if you press L/R (all the way down) during hitlag, you activate a broken tech window, in which no techs can take place, and that lasts for...40 frames total? and that holding the button would change nothing

This is the first I'm hearing about any 'broken' tech window

also i re-read the teching guide thread

is it just a 40 frame window total? 20 frames of that being techable, and 20 frames not, but 40 frames total
and not 60 frames?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i was always told 60 frames before you can tech again after a flub. 20 frames for the potential tech and 40 frames cool down.

holding down the trigger doesn't change anything, meaning it once counts once right?

 

[KAOSTAR]

So you're saying if you press L/R (all the way down) during hitlag, you activate a broken tech window, in which no techs can take place, and that lasts for...40 frames total? and that holding the button would change nothing

Yes.

This is the first I'm hearing about any 'broken' tech window

Call it what you want. You basically need to wait 40 frames inbetween presses of L/R. So you can tech every 2/3 second.

I break it down as 20 frames of cool down plus the initial tech window thats either active or its broken. If its active you can tech, if its broken you cannot. You cant tech during cool down.

is it just a 40 frame window total? 20 frames of that being techable, and 20 frames not, but 40 frames total
and not 60 frames?

20 techable, 20 cool down which is untechable. If you messed up, its 20 untechable and 20 untechable cool down.

i was always told 60 frames before you can tech again after a flub. 20 frames for the potential tech and 40 frames cool down.

holding down the trigger doesn't change anything, meaning it once counts once right?

Once you press it you press it. 2o potential tech and 20 cool down. combined its 40 frames of not being able to hit L/R again to start a new active tech window.
[COLLAPSE=unwanted repetitive detail LOL]]Holding L/R changes nothing. If you full press it you activate the tech window. Thats why lightly pressing L/R when L-canceling is important, Getting shield poked out of a fully depressed shield is pretty bad, WDing too much or getting hit out of one, getting stomped out of an airdodge. Those things can easily lead to missed techs because instinctively you reach for L/R as you are about to land.....get *****! playing with ppls tech window is truely a skill. Things like right b4 they land hit them again, there is a good chance they may miss a tech very soon.

Basically you have to wait 40 frames inbetween presses of the L/R button, thats the simplest way to put it. When you hit L/R to activate a working tech window it lasts for 20 frames, and then when that ends you must wait an additional 20 frames b4 you can activate your tech window again. During that 20 frames of cool down, you are unable to tech. so 20 tech, 20 no tech and thats the pattern.

If you **** up:
-hitting L/R within 20 frames of the initial press
-Hit L/R during hitstop
-hit L/R during the 20 frame cool down.
-[the initial 20 frames goes by but you land within the next 20 frames of cool down]

you will not tech, and it will be 40 frames[doesnt apply to the last one, you simply just wont tech, but can still activate the tech window after your cool down.] before you can activate your working tech window again. That is broken down into a 20 frame tech window that does not allow you to tech because you violated one of the above rules, and 20 frames for cool down.

so if you **** up, ur looking at 40 frames b4 u can activate a working tech window, normally you have 20 frames of tech and 20 frames cool down no tech....rinse and repeat.[/Collapse]

 

[genkaku]

As far as ledge techs go, you're supposed to hit L/R 20 frames before you hit the ledge, even if you haven't been hit by an attack at that point?
That's a little weird.

 

[X1-12]

just for the record KOASTAR is right about the 40 frames thing, its just one of those things that's misconstrued, its 40 frames after you first press that you can't input another tech, not 40 frames after the 20 frame tech window ends

 

[HT F8]

Does anyone know why this happens?

Hit with a strong down-forward sending attack on-stage (ex. Sheik's fair)
Hit the stage near the ledge
Attempt to tech
Bounce off the stage and air-dodge off-stage while still in hitstun somehow? -_-

This results in quite a few of my deaths, and is beyond annoying. ><

 

[genkaku]

It sounds like you missed the tech window and airdodged IASA.
And yeah, that is annoying.

 

[mers]

Does anyone know why this happens?

Hit with a strong down-forward sending attack on-stage (ex. Sheik's fair)
Hit the stage near the ledge
Attempt to tech
Bounce off the stage and air-dodge off-stage while still in hitstun somehow? -_-

This results in quite a few of my deaths, and is beyond annoying. ><

I've always assumed that it's a buffered airdodge (can you buffer those?) from attempting to tech at the wrong time. Hitstun goes away when you slide off the stage like that, because you can also instantly jump or attack (although your momentum from the hit remains). I've also seen people instantly grab the ledge from stupidly powerful attacks before, which may require a tech but still illustrates the sliding-off-the-edge weirdness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNcf4OFY_3k#t=5m02s

This illustrates the second part of what I said.

As far as ledge techs go, you're supposed to hit L/R 20 frames before you hit the ledge, even if you haven't been hit by an attack at that point?
That's a little weird.

Yes. You have to press it before you get hit, because you can't input techs in hitstun, and you have to use the hitstun to ASDI/SDI or whatever to the ledge.

 

[HT F8]

I've always assumed that it's a buffered airdodge (can you buffer those?) from attempting to tech at the wrong time. Hitstun goes away when you slide off the stage like that, because you can also instantly jump or attack (although your momentum from the hit remains). I've also seen people instantly grab the ledge from stupidly powerful attacks before, which may require a tech but still illustrates the sliding-off-the-edge weirdness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNcf4OFY_3k#t=5m02s

This illustrates the second part of what I said.

Sounds about right. And the video there is a double-stick tech. DI using the Cstick and Control Stick so that you hit the stage and can tech even powerful attacks at low-mid %. The momentum was just enough to carry him slightly off-stage and he grabbed the edge, I suppose.

It sounds like you missed the tech window and airdodged IASA.
And yeah, that is annoying.

The thing that gets me is how I air-dodge out of hitstun so fast... you can't airdodge directly out of hitstun or the tumbling animation, you have to be in a neutral air state. But this missed tech defies all physics. T_T

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its not a buffer, its simply slow reaction. You are trying to tech but miss the tech and edge cancel from the momentum. Once you have edge canceled, you are free to input any air move, including an airdodge. So if you try to tech, but simply do it late, you can edge cancel and airdodge to kill yourself.

 

[Pi]

I'm actually getting rather annoyed hearing about this double stick tech nonsense.

I sincerely doubt that's what happened in that video, and also doubt that most occurrences of odd techs can be equated to 'double stick teching' seeing as how the buttons involved should never come up in succession without intent to 'double stick tech'.

The fox would have had to have tried to downsmash (sure why not), while trying to jump (what? why?), and then press R within the tech window (downsmashing, jumping, and shielding at the same time?)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Some actual notes ON powershielding:
When powershielding a projectile, it neither reduces shieldhitstun, or shielddrop time. In essence you're just reflecting the projectile, that's it.

Actually knihT, this is incorrect. Powershielding projectiles negates their shieldstun. Just try it out with Samus's charge shot.

When powershielding physical/melee attacks, it does not reduce shieldhitstun, but it does allow you to perform any A (and B too? not sure) move as soon as you release shield.

Even I'm not quite sure exactly how this works. I'd hope someone with AR can clarify exactly how attacking out of a powershield works.

 

[EC_Joey]

I'm actually getting rather annoyed hearing about this double stick tech nonsense.

I sincerely doubt that's what happened in that video, and also doubt that most occurrences of odd techs can be equated to 'double stick teching' seeing as how the buttons involved should never come up in succession without intent to 'double stick tech'.

The fox would have had to have tried to downsmash (sure why not), while trying to jump (what? why?), and then press R within the tech window (downsmashing, jumping, and shielding at the same time?)

You know you have the inputs for double stick teching wrong, right?

 

[mers]

Even I'm not quite sure exactly how this works. I'd hope someone with AR can clarify exactly how attacking out of a powershield works.

I had it explained to me this way:

You know how you can normally cancel your shield with a jump? You can also cancel the shield-drop animation by jumping (otherwise you could get stuck in shield if you let go too early, like sometimes happens with Fox/Falco's shine). When you powershield, you also gain the ability to cancel that shield-drop animation with an attack.

This isn't necessarily true, though, just how I understand it.

 

[Pi]

You know you have the inputs for double stick teching wrong, right?

howso

Cstick only affects ASDI, which comes after hitlag so it's going to have to be down
and what other direction are you going to be SDIing than Up to get off the ground?

I don't get why you didn't just explain what you're thinking in your post rather than asking some sarcastic question.

Actually knihT, this is incorrect. Powershielding projectiles negates their shieldstun. Just try it out with Samus's charge shot.



Even I'm not quite sure exactly how this works. I'd hope someone with AR can clarify exactly how attacking out of a powershield works.

Did not know about the negating projectile shieldhitstun.
But also I did test it, and you can use B moves (neutral B at least) out of the shield drop animation post-powershield. And of course A attacks (smashes, jabs, etc.)

 

[EC_Joey]

howso

Cstick only affects ASDI, which comes after hitlag so it's going to have to be down
and what other direction are you going to be SDIing than Up to get off the ground?

I don't get why you didn't just explain what you're thinking in your post rather than asking some sarcastic question.

Why would you SDI up? The whole point of double stick teching is to DI into the ground.

 

[Dark Sonic]

howso

Cstick only affects ASDI, which comes after hitlag so it's going to have to be down
and what other direction are you going to be SDIing than Up to get off the ground?

I don't get why you didn't just explain what you're thinking in your post rather than asking some sarcastic question.

When you double stick tech you don't SDI at all though (well, technically you CAN, but that's not what the method is known for).

You ASDI down with the c-stick, and DI the attack perpendicularly (except instead of using up and towards like survival DI, you do down and away to get the lowest possible angle). SDIing up to get off the ground is not necessary as the hit itself has to be strong enough to send you into tumble in order to be techable in the first place.

 

[Pi]

if you're not SDIing then I see no reason to use the Cstick at all seein as how you can just hold perpendicularly down, or down in general with the control stick.

I thought the whole point of the 'double stick' aspect of the DST was the necessity for both sticks, if all we're using is ASDI and normal DI then that can be done solely with the control stick
which SDI & ASDI can as well, but accurate multi input SDI is a bit on the outlandish side.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

4 frames - Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Pichu / Pikachu / Samus / Sheik

5 frames - Captain Falcon / Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario / Marth / Mr. Game & Watch / Ness / Young Link

6 frames - DK / Falco / Jigglypuff / Mewtwo / Peach / Roy / Yoshi

7 frames - Ganondorf / Link / Zelda

9 frames - Bowser

that's probably a good way to determine a secondary, you'd keep your wavedashing on par.

 

[Dark Sonic]

if you're not SDIing then I see no reason to use the Cstick at all seein as how you can just hold perpendicularly down, or down in general with the control stick.

I thought the whole point of the 'double stick' aspect of the DST was the necessity for both sticks, if all we're using is ASDI and normal DI then that can be done solely with the control stick
which SDI & ASDI can as well, but accurate multi input SDI is a bit on the outlandish side.

You use the C-stick so that you can ASDI straight down. It's taking advantage of the fact that C-stick ASDI overrides control stick ASDI, allowing you to ASDI and normal DI in different directions. The control stick is DIing the move perpendicularly, for maximum effect (to get the lowest angle you can), and the little bit of extra vertical distance you get by ASDIing straight down instead of away and down (which is what the control stick would be doing in this situation) can be all you need to collide with the floor.


Double stick teching gets no real benefits from SDI, as the only thing that matters is that the angle that you're sent at is as low as possible and that your character's "sent flying" animation doesn't have them pop up too far above the ground (Magus made a gif about this once to show how different characters may not be able to tech the same attacks as a result).

 

[KAOSTAR]

double stick techs:

you are suppose to di as close to the ground as possible. this is done by lowering your trajectory as much as possible by sdi/di perpendicular to your launch angle. you still get your normal perpendicular di when you hold but sdi won't hurt you. I think its still possible to get a little closer to the ground depending on your character/attack if you sdi. might as well go for an sdi input, because you can tech moves from higher in the air if you are able to sdi down, so from standing sdi may have a minimal effect but its still possible to stick tech upon landing or jumping through sdi.

you cannot physically tech or make collision with a floor during hitstop (sdi frames). when you finally tech, its a result of asdI into the floor...straight down on the c stick.

double stick di is only necessary because of human limitation. you can actually use the control stick only and get the same results or much much better if you are frame perfect.

using the c stick just makes it easier to asdi to lower your launch angle and still asdi down into the ground.

rotational/quarter circle di is the easiest for a human to accomplish but its harder to get sdi inputs.

Does anyone know why this happens?

Hit with a strong down-forward sending attack on-stage (ex. Sheik's fair)
Hit the stage near the ledge
Attempt to tech
Bounce off the stage and air-dodge off-stage while still in hitstun somehow? -_-

This results in quite a few of my deaths, and is beyond annoying. ><

you ledge canceled, you were free to act and you air dodged trying to tech

 

[X1-12]

double stick techs:

you are suppose to sdi as close to the ground as possible. this is done by lowering your trajectory as much as possible by sdi perpendicular to your launch angle.

you cannot physically tech or make collision with ax floor during hitstop (sdi frames). when you finally tech, its a result of asdI into the floor...straight down on the c stick.

double stick di is only necessary because of human limitation. you can actually use the control stick only and get the same results or much much better if you are frame perfect.

using the c stick just makes it easier to asdi to lower your launch angle and still asdi down into the ground.

rotational/quarter circle di is the easiest for a human to accomplish but its harder to get sdi inputs.
you ledge canceled, you were free to act and you air dodged trying to tech

Fixed, C-stick can only ASDI

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea, just a typo, thanks. I was in the process of editing.

 

[ranmaru]

Does anyone know why this happens?

Hit with a strong down-forward sending attack on-stage (ex. Sheik's fair)
Hit the stage near the ledge
Attempt to tech
Bounce off the stage and air-dodge off-stage while still in hitstun somehow? -_-

This results in quite a few of my deaths, and is beyond annoying. ><

This has happened to me time and time again as well. It's very annoying.

 

[Dark Sonic]

edit nvmind, read post wrong

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Kaostar. If you take a hit while grounded you are unable to SDI down for that hit.

its still a good point to bring up tho.

trying to sdi down while on the ground I believe is called "forbidden di"

my wording may have been a bit confusing. but if you happen to be in the air sdi can make it so you start grounded at launch.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, I got it mixed up.

The Guide says

Forbidden Smash DI :

If you are on the ground and are hit by a non-techable move that sends you horizontally or downwards, you won't be able to Smash DI up.
I call this Forbidden Smash DI. It would in fact be broken because you would take the hit airborne, you would land on the ground without any stun.
The developpers saw this and prevented that from happening.
Forbidden Smash DI makes sure you stay stunned on the ground when you're hit by Fox's Aerial Down A, Fox's shine or any other relatively weak hit nailing you into the ground.
(However I've seen CPUs breaking that rule in Adventure mode )

I do remember hearing somewhere that you can't smash DI down if you take a hit grounded, but since I can't recall where I heard it from I'll assume that it's just misinformation. If someone could clarify if that's true or not I'd be grateful

 

[KAOSTAR]

oh yea I see. I would assume sdi down just places you in the same spot or closer if possible.

there was some talk in fox boards about maybe sdi down through platforms, but nothing confirmed...idk. basically the claim was a fox was stomped by falcon through a platform while laying down.

and I remember I didn't understand forbidden di for awhile because I didn't get the part about no stun.

just for reference where is that di guide, ive never seen it before.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218&highlight=Guide

Everything you'll ever need to know about DI

 

[X1-12]

Magus actually told me once that you CAN SDI up when grounded and hit with a downwards sending attack, for example if you SDI up when grounded and hit by a ganon D-air, you can go up in the air, but you then get sent straight up by the hit. This mechanic is to stop you SDI'ing up then teching the ground

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well it says an untechable move.

M2s downsmash at lower percents, foxs drill etc.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@X1-12. The rule only applies to attacks that aren't strong enough to send you into tumble.

 

[HT F8]

The fox would have had to have tried to downsmash (sure why not), while trying to jump (what? why?), and then press R within the tech window (downsmashing, jumping, and shielding at the same time?)

lol.

Edit: Btw, you're a Samus main? You should learn double stick techs, that could be useful for missed grab punishes on you. They ****. :D

its not a buffer, its simply slow reaction. You are trying to tech but miss the tech and edge cancel from the momentum. Once you have edge canceled, you are free to input any air move, including an airdodge. So if you try to tech, but simply do it late, you can edge cancel and airdodge to kill yourself.

you ledge canceled, you were free to act and you air dodged trying to tech

Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense. Edgecanceling... thank you. ^_^

 

[jalued]

can anyone link me to the thread that talks about the difference in kill % between PAL and NTSC melee? I have been lookin for hours to no avail. It is pretty indetail and at one point talks about how a 3% difference in damage of a move means it kills like 30% later or something...

i need this info for fox boards

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I wish an explication as to why all the banned stages are banned. Even all the obvious ones like Hyrule Temple (camping). The more detailed the better. I wish this info for a project I am working on.

 

[genkaku]

It's not very difficult information to find.
Look on the smash wiki