Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[chckn]

Yeah, diddy reallly hasnt been showing up too much lately, his metagame seems to have kinda like died out. Ill move him down under kirby and zss, but as of now Ankoku hasnt updated his recent posts for some reason???? But yeah like I said ness and lucas are the two that I am not extremely farmiliar with. Despite this, a tier list cannot only reflect tournament results, if it did TL would be low/bottom tier -__-. I also honestly dont understand what he has done with the two seperate rankings. Maybe the second one is just of recent tournaments, I really dont know. With that said, hopefully he will update the main ranking sometime soon. But as of now I will move ness above mario and move diddy under zss.

*edit* and yeah Magi falco is starting to become more and more prevelant in not only local tourneys but bigger ones as well. There is no way though that now at least he can be placed above gw. GW is just too impressive. From his matchups to priority to killing potential, hes great all around.

 

[chckn]

*double post*

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Marth
Wario

Upper Tier:
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Zelda
Kirby
ZSS
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
Ness
Mario
Sheik

Low Tier:
Sonic
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Bowser
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

*My mid tier I still do not feel very confident with, please post opinions/concerns, NOT ENTIRELY NEW TIER LISTS.

 

[DanGR]

chikn-why did you move zelda up and pit down? I like your list, just that those two caught my attention. It seems you're basing your tiers more off of potential rather than tourney results. Zelda has done very poor in tourneys so far, and her matchups really aren't as juiced as IvanEva's matchup chart implies. Pit has better matchups than the chart says, and has done well in tourneys. There's no need imo to bring him down.

 

[chckn]

chikn-why did you move zelda up and pit down? I like your list, just that those two caught my attention. It seems you're basing your tiers more off of potential rather than tourney results. Zelda has done very poor in tourneys so far, and her matchups really aren't as juiced as IvanEva's matchup chart implies. Pit has better matchups than the chart says, and has done well in tourneys. There's no need imo to bring him down.

good point, where would you consider moving zelda/pit to?

*edit* I switched them, I dont know if that is too drastic of a change or not, opinions?

 

[Nestec]

Mm-hmm, the second ranking is supposed to be more recent and updated. Yeah, I don't mean to rush him, but I wanna see Ness updated in the first ranking chart!!! T__T

Lol, I mean, being a Ness main, it puts tears in my eyes to find out that someone actually did good with him in a tournament.

 

[chckn]

Mm-hmm, the second ranking is supposed to be more recent and updated. Yeah, I don't mean to rush him, but I wanna see Ness updated in the first ranking chart!!! T__T

Lol, I mean, being a Ness main, it puts tears in my eyes to find out that someone actually did good with him in a tournament.

yeah I hope that he updates soon, his chart now is honestly a little confusing lol, but yeah I dont want to boost him up to like upper mid just because of one high placing in a tournament, Im anxious to see though if he consistently starts placing higher

 

[Magik0722]

I would like to see pokemon trainer split up into the pokemon. It makes sense as a squirtle in a bad matchup isnt going to do well just because charizard would do well against him. Also I believe pit should be above Wolf due to his recovery being so bad. Wolf does have alot of advantages in many match-ups, but all the wrong match-ups. He is at a disadvantage many of the characters above him.

 

[Seven11]

True

Roy is still top tier.

I am beginning to debate if Falco is above GAW or not. If not it is very close between them. In what I have seen in my local tournament scene is more falcos appearing then GAW and performing better. GAW does have amazing aerials though. Though what I am saying is the GAW and falco gap is small.

I agree. G&W has a few flaws in his game that are unavoidable; namely he is shield grab-able a lot. Falco's spacing game is amazing, and he really has no reason to break away from it if he doesnt want to, making him way safer overall. In short, G&W's need to be within reach makes him less conservative of a character, and will eventually move him down the tier list, while Falco should get comfy right about where he's at.

 

[DanGR]

Personally, I think zelda/sheik should be counted as one, but if you separate them, I'd place her right above Kirby,(assuming that's where he belongs) and no further. There's no evidence that suggests she's better than mid tier. I just went to go look at her placings- she just got a top4 this summer, that's it.(pretty bad, that's low tier worthy)She has no other tourney placings so far.

Pit-good matchups, 11th in tourneys,(good tourney results) and new ATs weekly.(it feels like it at least. O_o) He'll get even better( in the future I'm predicting) I'd place him right below lucario or IC. your pick, if you even want to take my advice that is.

 

[chckn]

I would like to see pokemon trainer split up into the pokemon. It makes since as a squirtle in a bad matchup isnt going to do well just because charizard would do well against him. Also I believe pit should be above Wolf due to his recovery being so bad. Wolf does have alot of advantages in many match-ups, but all the wrong match-ups. He is at a disadvantage many of the characters above him.

Wolf has done consistently well in tournaments, He has alot of good matchups, he's heavy with a spamable projectile and autocaneling fair/bair. He is ranked higher on both the older and more recent tournament listings. Correct me if I am wrong, but until pit starts performing even better than he is, I dont think he can be put above wolf. And yeah Ill split up Pt, but still group the three pokemon together since you cannot play with just one. Not too farmiliar with his individual matchups though, and suggestions?

Pit-good matchups, 11th in tourneys,(good tourney results) and new ATs weekly.(it feels like it at least. O_o) He'll get even better( in the future I'm predicting) I'd place him right below lucario or IC. your pick, if you even want to take my advice that is.

and yeah I just made the edit, and as to the zelda sheik argument, Since you do not ever need to use one to use the other(like pokemon trainer), it is as if they were two completely seperate characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Where r u getting your matchup info? And please dont say the chart.

 

[chckn]

Where r u getting your matchup info? And please dont say the chart.

LOL definately not, character matchups from individual character boards. Why, is there anything you see as innacurate?

 

[Deleted member]

Just wondering =P

 

[DanGR]

this is for everyone who intends to update a tier list.

and as to the zelda sheik argument, Since you do not ever need to use one to use the other(like pokemon trainer), it is as if they were two completely seperate characters.

Scenario:
-you main zelda/sheik, that's it
-you enter the final round in a tourney and you have to blind pick your character
-your opponent is at an even skill level with you

Do you pick zelda or shiek to start out?


Situation 1: lets say you end up having to play against an olimar as zelda.(assuming olimar>zelda and sheik>olimar, which i think both are true)
If you go up against olimar with zelda you're at a natural disadvantage, so you switch to sheik. If you end up winning, does that automatically count as you winning with sheik?

no, it doesn't.

You played as zelda for four seconds, and acquired 36 damage from the punishment, thus effecting the game. The fact of the matter is that you USED zelda during the match and thus ALTERED the game.

Situaton 2: you end up playing against DK. You selected sheik. Sheik is much better at racking damage agaisnt DK than zelda, so you decide to stay as sheik. a minutes later, you realize that he's at 190% and you're having a difficult time killing him.(which isn't atypical) You use fair and it knocks him away-you then switch to zelda!

DK: GAHH!!! What is this! Switching! NO! It can't be! You can't switch betwixt the two! that's illegal! Since when has downb been a move in this game!?

Newly transformed zelda: ah, yes it can be. I have switched because I can switch and I need to switch to accommodate my needs to help me win the match. (let me emphasize this: CAN SWITCH TO ACCOMMODATE HER NEEDS)

Solution:
My point is that you have an option of switching b/w the two if you pick the wrong character, and you can switch midmatch quite easily at that. If a zelda/sheik main won a tourney using both in the same match, which character of zelda and sheik would you call the victor? I would announce Zelda/Sheik the winner, not zelda just b/c she connected the finishing blow.

There are several matchups that the zelda and sheik boards have (for the most part) agreed that StZ(sheik, then zelda) is the best option in a match.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171602

I propose that tier lists from now on should include Zelda/Sheik as one character whether or not a person uses them both in the same fight or not-not b/c it's easier, but b/c it's much more accurate.

 

[BarakuDragon]

tbh I'm not to keen on that match up chart, I know theres not much c.falcon players and i'm not one myself but come on, look at his side he's only good at ganondorf and toon link rofl. There has to be some good c.falcon players in brawl that can prove that otherwise and ganadorf to there both just terrible, lol. But I guess it can't be helped for the time being untill more people play those char's although I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

@Dan: I completely agree, if they intended you to only use one character, they would give each character that can shift an actual Down-B. They could have easily said that you cannot switch and then give you the ability to switch between forms with taunts (like samus to zss).

 

[chckn]

this is for everyone who intends to update a tier list.



Scenario:
-you main zelda/sheik, that's it
-you enter the final round in a tourney and you have to blind pick your character
-your opponent is at an even skill level with you

Do you pick zelda or shiek to start out?


Situation 1: lets say you end up having to play against an olimar as zelda.(assuming olimar>zelda and sheik>olimar, which i think both are true)
If you go up against olimar with zelda you're at a natural disadvantage, so you switch to sheik. If you end up winning, does that automatically count as you winning with sheik?

no, it doesn't.

You played as zelda for four seconds, and acquired 36 damage from the punishment, thus effecting the game. The fact of the matter is that you USED zelda during the match and thus ALTERED the game.

Situaton 2: you end up playing against DK. You selected sheik. Sheik is much better at racking damage agaisnt DK than zelda, so you decide to stay as sheik. a minutes later, you realize that he's at 190% and you're having a difficult time killing him.(which isn't atypical) You use fair and it knocks him away-you then switch to zelda!

DK: GAHH!!! What is this! Switching! NO! It can't be! You can't switch betwixt the two! that's illegal! Since when has downb been a move in this game!?

Newly transformed zelda: ah, yes it can be. I have switched because I can switch and I need to switch to accommodate my needs to help me win the match. (let me emphasize this: CAN SWITCH TO ACCOMMODATE HER NEEDS)

Solution:
My point is that you have an option of switching b/w the two if you pick the wrong character, and you can switch midmatch quite easily at that. If a zelda/sheik main won a tourney using both in the same match, which character of zelda and sheik would you call the victor? I would announce Zelda/Sheik the winner, not zelda just b/c she connected the finishing blow.

There are several matchups that the zelda and sheik boards have (for the most part) agreed that StZ(sheik, then zelda) is the best option in a match.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171602

I propose that tier lists from now on should include Zelda/Sheik as one character whether or not a person uses them both in the same fight or not-not b/c it's easier, but b/c it's much more accurate.

yeah you do bring up a good point, I don't know what the general opinion on this is but I am down to put them together as one, if this is done though, where would zelda/sheik be placed on a tier list? hypothetically zelda/sheik should be placed higher than zelda because at worst, you are using zelda with the occasional advantage of sheik, this also brings up the question of should you be allowed to switch b/w zelda/sheik before a match starts or would that be comsidered counterpicking and thus unfair? discusss...

 

[Magik0722]

Zelda/sheik opinion

What you just said is the exact reason zelda and sheik should be separated on the tier list. Zelda has its own set of match-ups than sheik does and just because sheik is good against a certain character and zelda isn't, sheik doesn't gain some kind of advantage.
If it so happens that sheik is low tier and zelda is not, In regular tournaments you will still be able to be StZ since both are allowed. But by separating both of them allows people to be sheik in low tier tournaments by simply banning her down b move. This allows for more diversity in low tier tournaments and not given sheik an unfair advantage by switching to zelda, and that is why the two characters should be separated.

 

[DanGR]

in that case^, you can combine the two and separate the two as three different characters for less confusion. But to disregard each character's downb is just ridiculous.

Ex. tiers

MK
StZ
DK
Zelda
Ness
Sheik

As to where they'd actually go, that can be decided by y'all.

Chikn-where they'd actually go should be decided by each character's tourney placings: zelda's+sheik's
and each's matchups put together, that's assuming that the matchups are correct. The thing you have to account for in this situation is how hard it is to main a character(StZ) that has so many different moves. As a whole, the community doesn't agree with me though so it'd be a tough transition if they were to be integrated.

 

[chckn]

yeah idk danger, I really get your argument, I just want alot more feedback to see what everyone else thinks about that berore making that descision.

 

[Magik0722]

Having a StZ in the tier list would be way to complicated to place. Since the duration of each character and how often you transform will alter the character. Not to mention how StZ will be matchup wise. I mean how would a StZ as 99% time as zelda and 1% sheik compare to a StZ as 99% sheik and 1% zelda? Wouldn't their placement on the tier list be drastically different?

 

[chckn]

that is why they either have to stay completely seperated or completely combined, idk i think they should be listed seperately but idk thats just me. On another note, any suggestions for my middle tier?

 

[Unusual_Rex]

My tier list has been updated, tell me what you think!

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Falco (D)

High Tiers:

R.O.B (D)
Marth (U)
Captain Olimar (U)
King Dedede (N)
Wario (D)
Pit (N)

Upper Mid Tiers:

Toon Link (U)
Wolf (N)
Pikachu (N)
Donkey Kong (U)
Lucario (N)
Zelda (N)

Mid Mid Tiers:

Fox (D)
Ice Climbers (N)
Ike (D)
Diddy Kong (N)
Zero Suit Samus (D)
Kirby (N)
Ness (D)

Low Mid Tiers:

Luigi (N)
Lucas (D)
Sonic (U)
Squirtle (D)
Sheik (U)
Mario (N)

Low Tiers:

Peach (D)
Ivysaur (N)
Link (U)
Samus (U)
Ganondorf (U)
Charizard (U)

Bottom Tiers:

Bowser (N)
Yoshi (U)
Jigglypuff (U)
Captain Falcon (U)

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Your list seems fine I don't quite agree with some of the current positions, but because u put the D,N,F, I agree with your list.

And also, do any of you think that we should eliminate the bottom tier, or at least for now until we see that there is an even more significant variation of character level in the future? To me, the level of the characters often placed in low tier/bottom tier don't vary enough to me to put them into different tiers. May be we could move some of the Lows into the Lower Mid and add the bottoms to the Low, or just add all the bottoms to the Low, etc. Also, by doing this, it may eliminate negative feelings. For example, looking at 'bottom' will probably give you the impression of: oh they must definitely suck, and then people won't want to play as them. I just think that looking at "Low" is more 'appealing'... i got to go for now... sorry if some of this stuff was confusing... i'll edit/etc. later...

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

It's a possibility, I think it's kind of obvious that some characters in Low are quite a cut above those normally placed in Bottom >_>

 

[Jump_Man]

Do people put yoshi on the bottom tier because it's the normal thing to do? Unusual Rex, why did you put Yoshi on the bottom tier, just wondering.

 

[stoopdklutz]

wait, why is Link extremely low now? I mean, he has a lot going for him, but his recovery is meh. But is his recovery THAT bad to warrant bottom tier?

 

[Corigames]

Do people put yoshi on the bottom tier because it's the normal thing to do?

Yeah, we beat up on Yoshi. He's the only Dinosaur, and we are speciesists. I steal his lunch money and give him wedgies all the time because all the cool kids are doing it.

No. That's not how it works. Yoshi is a bad character, and no one yet has been able to disprove that in a tournament setting. He has one of the worst tournament placings scores out of the whole cast, he's got a horrendous learning curve, and he just plays differently through the use of unique moves and shield. He's not good, he hasn't ever really been good. That's why he is always at or near the bottom on lists.

Until someone can disprove this, let's hold off on the repeating Yoshi conversation please.

 

[AlAxe]

wait, why is Link extremely low now? I mean, he has a lot going for him, but his recovery is meh. But is his recovery THAT bad to warrant bottom tier?

Yea I know what you mean. I have a friend that mains Link and is quite beastly with him. His recovery isn't great but it isn't that bad. Anything above mid is a stretch but I can't understand why he's in the same tier as Ganon, Bowser, Samus, and Yoshi.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Yea I know what you mean. I have a friend that mains Link and is quite beastly with him. His recovery isn't great but it isn't that bad. Anything above mid is a stretch but I can't understand why he's in the same tier as Ganon, Bowser, Samus, and Yoshi.

It is my belief that Samus and Ganondorf could both be considered much, much better than Link. Link is slow, his moves are laggy, his projectile game is predictable, and his recovery is complete garbage. At least Ganondorf can hit you sometimes, and at least Samus has a fair-to-middling projectile game.

 

[chckn]

Yea I know what you mean. I have a friend that mains Link and is quite beastly with him. His recovery isn't great but it isn't that bad. Anything above mid is a stretch but I can't understand why he's in the same tier as Ganon, Bowser, Samus, and Yoshi.

Do people put yoshi on the bottom tier because it's the normal thing to do? Unusual Rex, why did you put Yoshi on the bottom tier, just wondering.

just because you know someone that beats YOUR group of friends with a character does not make that character high tier. Just because you main a character does not mean that that character is high tier. Just because you have never seen a character played before does not make that character any lower or higher. Please post intelegently and back up your opinions with facts i.e. tournament results, character statistics/movesets, things of that nature. I am posting my tier list again, if you would like to flame it then that is fine. I find it to be fairly accurate and I am open to any and all intellegent critique.PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY MORE OF YOUR RANDOM TIER LISTS. Instead point out specific problems you see with mine and if what you say makes sense I would be glad to edit.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Marth
Wario

Upper Tier:
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Zelda
Kirby
ZSS
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
Ness
Mario
Sheik

Low Tier:
Sonic
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Bowser
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[Blistering Speed]

*sigh* Without EL the Marth scene here has gone to peices. He is the fourth best character in the game, under G&W, MK and Snake. ROB and Falco are NOT better then him. Tourney results, matchups and just overall stats, he is the fourth best character in the game.
Btw, Roy R just won a huge Texas Tournament using solo Marth, as in he beat Stiltz, Hylian, Sethlon etc.

 

[Fogo]

*sigh* Without EL the Marth scene here has gone to peices. He is the fourth best character in the game, under G&W, MK and Snake. ROB and Falco are NOT better then him. Tourney results, matchups and just overall stats, he is the fourth best character in the game.
Btw, Roy R just won a huge Texas Tournament using solo Marth, as in he beat Stiltz, Hylian, Sethlon etc.

i doubt he'll be winning the one i'm going too on saturday.

 

[chckn]

*sigh* Without EL the Marth scene here has gone to peices. He is the fourth best character in the game, under G&W, MK and Snake. ROB and Falco are NOT better then him. Tourney results, matchups and just overall stats, he is the fourth best character in the game.
Btw, Roy R just won a huge Texas Tournament using solo Marth, as in he beat Stiltz, Hylian, Sethlon etc.

Up until Ankoku updated with that seperate ranking list, Marth actually had not been doing very well at all in tourneys. He was ranked like 9th which really didnt give him that tournament representation. On the update Marth has moved up, but I really dont understand why he still ahs two lists. Regardless, where would you place marth then?

 

[Tristan_win]

Jezz bottom of mid tier that's not right.

You guys depend upon rankings too much.

Sheik is better then Zelda, much better then Lucas/Ness, she has better match ups then Mario so I'm saying shes better, although the Sheik vs Mario match is very interesting as Mario can't be effectively combo by sheik while Mario still has the ability to combo to the best of his abilities.

Oh and what in hells name is Pit doing up in upper? He's clearly limited and belongs in mid tier. He has no combo ability to speak of, no great finishes, and no moves that are great for racking up damage.

 

[chckn]

Jezz bottom of mid tier that's not right.

You guys depend upon rankings too much.

Sheik is better then Zelda, much better then Lucas/Ness, she has better match ups then Mario so I'm saying shes better, although the Sheik vs Mario match is very interesting as Mario can't be effectively combo by sheik while Mario still has the ability to combo to the best of his abilities.

Oh and what in hells name is Pit doing up in upper? He's clearly limited and belongs in mid tier. He has no combo ability to speak of, no great finishes, and no moves that are great for racking up damage.

Firstly sheik is not better than zelda, you are a shiek main so naturally you are going to have an affinity towards Sheik. Secondly, sheik is at the very very bottom of the character rankings chart where zelda is somewhat in the middle. Sheik has very limited metagame as well. Yes she can combo but her moves do so little that she can hardly rack up damage. On top of this she has one effective kill move only. I do not know where you are geting your matchup information from either because sheik has very few even neutral matchups. Zelda on the other hand matches up well against many more characters. I dont know if you noticed either but I moved zelda down significantly due to the fact that she has not been placing exceptionally well in tournaments. Earlier on, people were placing Zelda at the middle of upper tier if not higher.

To address the pit issue, Pit has a spamable projectile and racks up damage easilly. He matches up well against many characters and can camp effectively. On top of this he has tons of advanced techniques that have come out recently and are still coming out. Also, he has been placing fairly well in tournaments consistently. Whereas toon link and has been placing consistently much lower. I would consider moving wolf above Pit, due to the fact that Wolf has been doing fairly well. If you can provide PROOF as to why pit should be any lower than he is now, then I would be more than happy to chang his placing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mr. Game & Watch? The Hell...?!

Anyway, I never saw Lucario as top tier (though you didn't SAY top tier, so I shouldn't assume things, but hear me out, this has a point) but if it turns out Lucario is top or high tier, I just want to go on the record now and say I've been playing Lucario since day 1, so its ranking had no affect on me. Bad enough people think I play MK cause he's top tier. Bad enough when everyone just KNEW Wolf & Pit would be top tier and people accused me of playing them for that reason.

Uhhhh, what?

G&W has respectable tournament rankings, incredible match-ups, and simply good abilities.

On a theoretical level he's awesome with a lot that can be improved. On a practical level, his tournament results are respectable, current right above marth's.

No, G&W is an extremely powerful character.

 

[chckn]

Uhhhh, what?

G&W has respectable tournament rankings, incredible match-ups, and simply good abilities.

On a theoretical level he's awesome with a lot that can be improved. On a practical level, his tournament results are respectable, current right above marth's.

No, G&W is an extremely powerful character.

Yeah I feel pretty confident that he will stay right under top tier, btw adumbrodeus do you see anything that can be changed on my list?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Up until Ankoku updated with that seperate ranking list, Marth actually had not been doing very well at all in tourneys. He was ranked like 9th which really didnt give him that tournament representation. On the update Marth has moved up, but I really dont understand why he still ahs two lists. Regardless, where would you place marth then?

In my three lines of text, I stated he was the fourth best character in the game. Please learn to read

 

[Tristan_win]

Firstly sheik is not better than zelda, you are a shiek main so naturally you are going to have an affinity towards Sheik. Secondly, sheik is at the very very bottom of the character rankings chart where zelda is somewhat in the middle. Sheik has very limited metagame as well. Yes she can combo but her moves do so little that she can hardly rack up damage. On top of this she has one effective kill move only. I do not know where you are geting your matchup information from either because sheik has very few even neutral matchups. Zelda on the other hand matches up well against many more characters. I dont know if you noticed either but I moved zelda down significantly due to the fact that she has not been placing exceptionally well in tournaments. Earlier on, people were placing Zelda at the middle of upper tier if not higher.

To address the pit issue, Pit has a spamable projectile and racks up damage easilly. He matches up well against many characters and can camp effectively. On top of this he has tons of advanced techniques that have come out recently and are still coming out. Also, he has been placing fairly well in tournaments consistently. Whereas toon link and has been placing consistently much lower. I would consider moving wolf above Pit, due to the fact that Wolf has been doing fairly well. If you can provide PROOF as to why pit should be any lower than he is now, then I would be more than happy to chang his placing.

For your information I'm a Sheik/Zelda user which means I main both. Sure I do favor Sheik a bit more then Zelda but that's because I see all this untap potential in Sheik.

Anyways because I use both I know their weakness and strengths very well and Zelda is so limited it's sickening. She has no good approaches and even though her projectile is good against a camper who knows what they are doing it becomes nearly useless. She's all about the defense which is great for Brawl physicals but as long as someone stays mid range, never side steps, and remains grounded or can out camp Zelda then the chances of her winner or even landing a hit is slim. A jigglypuff well learn in the art of fighting Zelda would win. It's like fighting the Ice climbers but instead of “Don't get grabbed" it's "don't get hit", which is very possible because she can't approach.

Sheik on the other hand is very well balance. Good offensive game, good defensive game, spammable projectiles in all match ups, and easy to use follow up moves and clearly you underestimate comboing.

For example: Snake hits someone with his ftilt it does 20%(I think it’s around that much) Sheik hits someone with her ftilt it goes into another ftilt and then that can either go into another ftilt, strong nair, AAA combo, and utilt.

When I know tilt locking wont work or I'm fighting someone who can escape early I mainly use ftilt, ftilt, utilt. That's 23% which is more then Snakes tilt. This can also be followed up with a large section of attacks.

By the way Sheik has two killing moves Vanish and Usmash and if needed (which is about 50% of the time) she can transform into Zelda to score the quick kill.

About Pit. Pit defensive game isn't that great if you get up close so all you have to do is make sure he doesn't run away. His attacks also don't link very well into each other also his AT at least last time I look was all about controlling his arrows and wing canceling.