Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Unusual_Rex]

Do people put yoshi on the bottom tier because it's the normal thing to do? Unusual Rex, why did you put Yoshi on the bottom tier, just wondering.

I put Yoshi on bottom not because he's a bad character, just because the mojority of the roster is better than him.

Also, this is a temporary tier list, it is bound to change. they may find ground breaking stuff with Yoshi, who knows.

 

[chckn]

In my three lines of text, I stated he was the fourth best character in the game. Please learn to read

-__- I thought you were complaining that marth wasnt ranked fourth best in the tier list then, thats why I was giving you information as to why I feel he shouldnt be moved up any more on high tier.

For your information I'm a Sheik/Zelda user which means I main both. Sure I do favor Sheik a bit more then Zelda but that's because I see all this untap potential in Sheik.

Anyways because I use both I know their weakness and strengths very well and Zelda is so limited it's sickening. She has no good approaches and even though her projectile is good against a camper who knows what they are doing it becomes nearly useless. She's all about the defense which is great for Brawl physicals but as long as someone stays mid range, never side steps, and remains grounded or can out camp Zelda then the chances of her winner or even landing a hit is slim. A jigglypuff well learn in the art of fighting Zelda would win. It's like fighting the Ice climbers but instead of “Don't get grabbed" it's "don't get hit", which is very possible because she can't approach.

Sheik on the other hand is very well balance. Good offensive game, good defensive game, spammable projectiles in all match ups, and easy to use follow up moves and clearly you underestimate comboing.

For example: Snake hits someone with his ftilt it does 20%(I think it’s around that much) Sheik hits someone with her ftilt it goes into another ftilt and then that can either go into another ftilt, strong nair, AAA combo, and utilt.

When I know tilt locking wont work or I'm fighting someone who can escape early I mainly use ftilt, ftilt, utilt. That's 23% which is more then Snakes tilt. This can also be followed up with a large section of attacks.

By the way Sheik has two killing moves Vanish and Usmash and if needed (which is about 50% of the time) she can transform into Zelda to score the quick kill.

About Pit. Pit defensive game isn't that great if you get up close so all you have to do is make sure he doesn't run away. His attacks also don't link very well into each other also his AT at least last time I look was all about controlling his arrows and wing canceling.

Im going to move wolf above tl and pit, also someone had mentioned earler combinining zelda/sheik as one character, how do you feel about that? and as to tilt locking, if youre playing against someone who knows how to play agains sheik, tilt locks are easilly DIable, if sheik starts performing at all at tournaments, then I will move her up.

 

[chckn]

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Marth
Wario

Upper Tier:
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Wolf
Pit
Toon Link



Mid Tier:
Zelda
Kirby
ZSS
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
Ness
Mario
Sheik

Low Tier:
Sonic
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Bowser
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

*edit* I moved wolf up 2, also I am not very comfortable with my middle tier, suggestions please... PLEASE DO NOT POST ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TIER LISTS, just post suggestions of changes to be made to mine with evidence as to why. thank you

 

[wavelucas]

I'm curious as to what will happen with Pikmin, since Olimar doesn't play like anything in Melee.

Also, is the backroom going to rate Pokemon Trainer into a single tier or are they going to place all 3 of his pokemon in the individual tiers where they belong?

i hope so, cause i dont want his reputation being ruined by ivusaur. BTW, zelda and shiek are seperate, so why shouldn't the pt's pokemon be?

Lucas is too god to be in bottom tier

 

[wavelucas]

Yeah, we beat up on Yoshi. He's the only Dinosaur, and we are speciesists. I steal his lunch money and give him wedgies all the time because all the cool kids are doing it.

No. That's not how it works. Yoshi is a bad character, and no one yet has been able to disprove that in a tournament setting. He has one of the worst tournament placings scores out of the whole cast, he's got a horrendous learning curve, and he just plays differently through the use of unique moves and shield. He's not good, he hasn't ever really been good. That's why he is always at or near the bottom on lists.

Until someone can disprove this, let's hold off on the repeating Yoshi conversation please.

so what your saying is that Yoshi could be better than everyone on the tier list, ut no one is good enough as him to prove it?

 

[chckn]

i hope so, cause i dont want his reputation being ruined by ivusaur. BTW, zelda and shiek are seperate, so why shouldn't the pt's pokemon be?

Lucas is too god to be in bottom tier

Pt should be considered one character but his pokemon should be broken up and ranked as well. The reason for this is that if you are ko'd you are forced to use a different pokemon, unlike zelda/sheik where you can stay either or for the entire match. The reason why zelda/sheik could be considered one is that what happens in a tourney if you switch b/w the two for a kill. Also If you have been playing zelda the whole tourney and you go sheik against a certain player for the first match because sheik is a better matchup, is that considered cping and thus unfair?

* and lucas is not in bottom tier he is in mid

 

[Tristan_win]

-__- I thought you were complaining that marth wasnt ranked fourth best in the tier list then, thats why I was giving you information as to why I feel he shouldnt be moved up any more on high tier.



Im going to move wolf above tl and pit, also someone had mentioned earler combinining zelda/sheik as one character, how do you feel about that? and as to tilt locking, if youre playing against someone who knows how to play agains sheik, tilt locks are easilly DIable, if sheik starts performing at all at tournaments, then I will move her up.

The beauty of tilt locking is that there are only two ways to get out of it. DI towards Sheik like you would do to a AAA combo and DI up.

If the Sheik user sees you are about to escape in either way he has the potential of finishing it with either a fsmash or tipper usmash to counter your DI.

Anyways I'm going to assume your talking about Sheik/Zelda as in you start the match as Sheik instead of Zelda since starting a match with Zelda only to go for the kill with sheik is just plan odd.

I think it's a great idea to make Sheik/Zelda as it's own slot but it would be just easier assuming that sheik will use Zelda for the kill.

 

[chckn]

The beauty of tilt locking is that there are only two ways to get out of it. DI towards Sheik like you would do to a AAA combo and DI up.

If the Sheik user sees you are about to escape in either way he has the potential of finishing it with either a fsmash or tipper usmash to counter your DI.

Anyways I'm going to assume your talking about Sheik/Zelda as in you start the match as Sheik instead of Zelda since start a match with Zelda only to go for the kill with sheik is just plan odd.

I think it's a great idea to make Sheik/Zelda as it's own slot but it would be just easier assuming that sheik will use Zelda for the kill.

yeah thats what I meant lol, and in terms of listing them as one I am all for it. Idk what the general outlook is on playing tournaments and switching b/w starting with sheik or zelda depending on how the matchup is though. I wanna get alot more feedback from people before I do something like that.

 

[Tristan_win]

yeah thats what I meant lol, and in terms of listing them as one I am all for it. Idk what the general outlook is on playing tournaments and switching b/w starting with sheik or zelda depending on how the matchup is though. I wanna get alot more feedback from people before I do something like that.

Well if you want feed back go to the Sheik and Zelda forum and make a thread detailing them of your problem.

If you make it longer then a few sentences then people wont see it as spam and will actually give their thoughts and opinions on the matter.

If anything you should post this in the Sheik forum just to help simulate it's community.

We only have like seven regulars ._.

Edit: Curse my lack of sleep

 

[DanGR]

tristan win-you're totally right about sheik being better than zelda. I know you're right through several hours of experience against both of them. I've learned

-that spotdodging doesn't work
-how to effectively dodge din's and camp at the same time with nearly every character with a projectile(except DDD)
-sit outside her range to make her approach(works very well with MK when I tried him)
-shut down her approaching(with olimar at least)
-and win easily

It's all about making her approach through sitting outside of her hitbox and/or using projectiles. People just have to get used to all you just said and she'll drop multiple tiers,(like seriously imo) and when more sheik users learn how you utilize her, she'll get higher. I'm not really sure why sheik hasn't been doing well in tourneys, b/c she's a great character overall.

Pit-I think you've played against pit with sheik a little too much. Sheik is especially good agaisnt pit b/c of her fast moves that can destroy his inside game. It's hard to combo sheik b/c of very quick nair and fair, and it's also hard to kill her b/c she has the inside speed to avoid pit's hard knockback moves. it's sad. but against most of the cast, it's the opposite. pit has VERY fast moves that can tremendously negate spotdodges and shields through ongoing pressure, a great gimping projectile in the arrows, and an average comboing game, a great recovery and a great edge game overall. He does have a lot of ATs and other tricks. Here's a compilation of them:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163980

* Angelic Step, The
* Arrow Blitzing
* Arrow Chasing
* Arrow Looping
* Arrow Swarming
* Arrow Dancing/Stalling
* ART (Angel Ring Technique)
* Glide Canceling
* Glide Hopping
* Glide Shifting
* Gliding
* Infinite Jump (Wing Refresh + Wing Renewal)
* SHFairWoI (Short Hop Forward Air Wings of Icarus)
* Slide Stepping
* Super Armor
* Wave Gliding
* Wing Canceling
* Wing Dashing
* Wing Fatigue
* Wing Lunging
* Wing Refreshing
* Wing Renewal
* Wing Shoving
* Z Canceling

Note that they're not all techs like "gliding" and "super armor", but most are special ways to utilize WoI and sidestep momentum. Go ahead and look at the links on each in the compendium. And that's so far...

 

[Pierce7d]

just because you know someone that beats YOUR group of friends with a character does not make that character high tier. Just because you main a character does not mean that that character is high tier. Just because you have never seen a character played before does not make that character any lower or higher. Please post intelegently and back up your opinions with facts i.e. tournament results, character statistics/movesets, things of that nature. I am posting my tier list again, if you would like to flame it then that is fine. I find it to be fairly accurate and I am open to any and all intellegent critique.PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY MORE OF YOUR RANDOM TIER LISTS. Instead point out specific problems you see with mine and if what you say makes sense I would be glad to edit.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Marth
Wario

Upper Tier:
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Zelda
Kirby
ZSS
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
Ness
Mario
Sheik

Low Tier:
Sonic
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Bowser
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

*sigh* Without EL the Marth scene here has gone to peices. He is the fourth best character in the game, under G&W, MK and Snake. ROB and Falco are NOT better then him. Tourney results, matchups and just overall stats, he is the fourth best character in the game.
Btw, Roy R just won a huge Texas Tournament using solo Marth, as in he beat Stiltz, Hylian, Sethlon etc.

I see where you're going, but he's more like tier 6 I think. Falco might be better than Marth (Marth is my main, Falco is my second). The lasers give Falco a major edge on so many matchups, and chain throw deals with so many others. Marth has viturally no way to deal with projectiles, and can be camped against really hard. Due to the defensive nature of Brawl, this puts Falco a tad above him.

However, Marth is more likely to beat most opponents than R.O.B.. Marth has better approach options, decent defense options (though agreeably not as good defense as R.O.B., due to the lack of a way to deal with ) Worse recovery, but harder to edgeguard. Due to the tipper, and a more usable meteor smash, Marth has better finishers, and he's less predictable than R.O.B.. Despite his negative matchup against R.O.B. himself, he a flexible character, and just much more likely to place a victory.

The problem with Marth is that despite his **** matchups against so many characters, he has a negative match-up against quite a few top characters. Out of the top and high tiers, he loses to Snake, R.O.B. and Falco (possibly his only three bad match-ups in the game, but all top or high tier), and is neutral against D3 and Metaknight (D3 has range, weight, power, and recovery on him, and Metaknight has speed and recovery on him.) He can knock out G&W and Wario, but that's where it ends in the top and high tiers for him. He has a pretty positive match-up against the vast majority of the rest of the roster, but he's not going to place 1 in most tournements because the other really great characters fair well against him (it's tough for me to say that as a Marth main, but talking statically, it's true.)

R.O.B. beats , Marth, Wario, and can beat Snake at times. He's about neutral with D3 and loses to Falco, MK and G&W. Not awesome, but looks a bit better than Marth., due to a better matchup against Snake (perhaps)

Of course, all this data is still subjective and speculative. Game hasn't been out 4 months yet. Just my .02

 

[chckn]

I see where you're going, but he's more like tier 6 I think. Falco might be better than Marth (Marth is my main, Falco is my second). The lasers give Falco a major edge on so many matchups, and chain throw deals with so many others. Marth has viturally no way to deal with projectiles, and can be camped against really hard. Due to the defensive nature of Brawl, this puts Falco a tad above him.

However, Marth is more likely to beat most opponents than R.O.B.. Marth has better approach options, decent defense options (though agreeably not as good defense as R.O.B., due to the lack of a way to deal with ) Worse recovery, but harder to edgeguard. Due to the tipper, and a more usable meteor smash, Marth has better finishers, and he's less predictable than R.O.B.. Despite his negative matchup against R.O.B. himself, he a flexible character, and just much more likely to place a victory.

The problem with Marth is that despite his **** matchups against so many characters, he has a negative match-up against quite a few top characters. Out of the top and high tiers, he loses to Snake, R.O.B. and Falco (possibly his only three bad match-ups in the game, but all top or high tier), and is neutral against D3 and Metaknight (D3 has range, weight, power, and recovery on him, and Metaknight has speed and recovery on him.) He can knock out G&W and Wario, but that's where it ends in the top and high tiers for him. He has a pretty positive match-up against the vast majority of the rest of the roster, but he's not going to place 1 in most tournements because the other really great characters fair well against him (it's tough for me to say that as a Marth main, but talking statically, it's true.)

R.O.B. beats , Marth, Wario, and can beat Snake at times. He's about neutral with D3 and loses to Falco, MK and G&W. Not awesome, but looks a bit better than Marth., due to a better matchup against Snake (perhaps)

Of course, all this data is still subjective and speculative. Game hasn't been out 4 months yet. Just my .02

really good post, and yeah marths negative matchups(though very few), are against characters that to be any higher he would need to matchup better against. I mean the only cahracter above him that he really has an advantage on is GW, imo that plus his tournament standings won't let him climnb any higher than he is now. I could possibly see him above DDD, as to they are just about even. The only reason why I did move DDD up so much higher is that he is gaining alot of popularity as well as placing extemely well in touranments. On the updated character rankings he is ranked third.

Well if you want feed back go to the Sheik and Zelda forum and make a thread detailing them of your problem.

If you make it longer then a few sentences then people wont see it as spam and will actually give their thoughts and opinions on the matter.

If anything you should post this in the Sheik forum just to help simulate it's community.

We only have like seven regulars ._.

Edit: Curse my lack of sleep

and yeah imma get on that now

 

[stoopdklutz]

It is my belief that Samus and Ganondorf could both be considered much, much better than Link. Link is slow, his moves are laggy, his projectile game is predictable, and his recovery is complete garbage. At least Ganondorf can hit you sometimes, and at least Samus has a fair-to-middling projectile game.

I don't know about Samus, but I agree with Ganondorf. Samus was nerfed hard, and it was unneccesary. Harder to bomb jump, vertical knockback missles, weaker charge shot...bleh. I feel bad for my melee secondary.

 

[Guilhe]

Ike is having some satisfatory positions in tourneys, shouldn't he be at the middle tier?

 

[fkacyan]

OK, just need to get this out there:

Position in the tier list does not ****ing matter.

You want your character to be high tier? K, then if they are, everybody will start playing said character, everybody will know the matchup, and your chances at winning will be hurt. Also, you'll no longer be one of the few people playing that mid tier character over the high tiers.

It doesn't matter where a character is. All that matters is that you win with them.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

i hope so, cause i dont want his reputation being ruined by ivusaur. BTW, zelda and shiek are seperate, so why shouldn't the pt's pokemon be?

Lucas is too god to be in bottom tier

Don't diss Ivysaur. He is a fairly neutral choice when you're facing characters that cannot be taken out by Squirtle or Charizard. In my opinion, I'm best as Ivy.

 

[KernelColonel]

Face it, Ivysaur's slow tactics and lack of recovery (yes, not even his razor leaf can help that) make him worse than both Charizard and Squirtle on the whole. It won't make you better as Char or Squirtle, but in general, Ivysaur is the worst. If players could just stick as Charizard or Squirtle, then Pokemon Trainer would probably be higher tier.

 

[stoopdklutz]

I don't want my character to be high tier, I just wonder why others are so low.

 

[Pieisthebest]

I just want to know why Chckn thinks he can just take over his topic, and make his list as the base list for people to make changes to. I'd like him to explain this.

 

[chckn]

Ike is having some satisfatory positions in tourneys, shouldn't he be at the middle tier?

Ike has been placing lower and lower in tourneys, his metagame was developed alot earlier than others just due to his general popularity. Lately he has been doing much worse and worse and it is generally agreed that he deserves to be that low.

I just want to know why Chckn thinks he can just take over his topic, and make his list as the base list for people to make changes to. I'd like him to explain this.

Firstly, I havent taken over anyting. This thread has gone on for like 700 pages, of which 75 percent of the posts are by people with less than 10 posts stating either their completely rediculouse tier lists, or how yoshi and captain falcon deserve to be god tier. Honestly, nothing said in this thread really matter at all due to the fact that the only tier list that will be given any credibility to is the SBR's. With that said, I know that there are some trully intelegent posters on this thread who have done alot of reaserch and are farmiliar with the characters of this game, and are here to do more than just flame and rack up their post count. I really have no intention to take over this thread, I just feel that(correct me if I am wrong) for this thread to go anywhere at all, and for the opinions of these posters to be given credibility, this thread needs to be organized. Be it under a tier list created by me or by someone else that knows what they are talking about is irrelevant. Ive seen so many times someone post something that makes sense and it is just drowned with irrelevant posts. If this thread becomes organized then that will no longer happen.

 

[gantrain05]

move peach up seriously, she's better than every single character in mid tier, she def does not deserve to be in the ranks of ganon, bowser, and ike, i know alot of people think she sucks now, but she absolutely does not, she does great against almost every single high/top tier characters and has no glaring weakness at all, i don't understand why every tier list is placing her low/bottom when she's clearly much better than that.

 

[chckn]

move peach up seriously, she's better than every single character in mid tier, she def does not deserve to be in the ranks of ganon, bowser, and ike, i know alot of people think she sucks now, but she absolutely does not, she does great against almost every single high/top tier characters and has no glaring weakness at all, i don't understand why every tier list is placing her low/bottom when she's clearly much better than that.

proof of this? (individual character matchups from the high tiers that put peach at an advantage at them, tournament results that support this, things of this nature)

 

[gantrain05]

proof of this? (individual character matchups from the high tiers that put peach at an advantage at them, tournament results that support this, things of this nature)

well i've been talking to alot of people in the peach tourney discussion board, and alot of peaches have actually been placing very high, no 1st place finishes but alot of 2nd-8th place finishes in alot of tourneys w/ 50+ ppl, honestly i just don't think she has a very big following in brawl and doesn't get the recognition alot of the more popular characters get, i'm not saying that she's god tier or anything, but i do know that she's way better than low tier for sure.

 

[chckn]

well i've been talking to alot of people in the peach tourney discussion board, and alot of peaches have actually been placing very high, no 1st place finishes but alot of 2nd-8th place finishes in alot of tourneys w/ 50+ ppl, honestly i just don't think she has a very big following in brawl and doesn't get the recognition alot of the more popular characters get, i'm not saying that she's god tier or anything, but i do know that she's way better than low tier for sure.

hmmm, Im gonnna go check out the peach boards again now, but yeah I get what youre saying and I can really see her going up to like top of low, possibly even bottom of mid?

*edit* Another serious problem I have with the placement of peach is the fact that she doesnt have an individual matchup thread on her boards. Beacause of this, I had to rely alot heavier on tournament standings which peach was lacking before ankoku updated with his second ranking. With that info now, I can say peach does deserve to be higher, only question is how high?

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Marth
Wario

Upper Tier:
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Zelda
Kirby
ZSS
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
Ness
Mario
Sheik

Low Tier:
Peach
Sonic
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Face it, Ivysaur's slow tactics and lack of recovery (yes, not even his razor leaf can help that) make him worse than both Charizard and Squirtle on the whole. It won't make you better as Char or Squirtle, but in general, Ivysaur is the worst. If players could just stick as Charizard or Squirtle, then Pokemon Trainer would probably be higher tier.

lol, no. Ivysaur's "slow" tactics? Ivysaur is awesome at camping, spacing and racking up damage. Yes, his recovery is weak but Ivysaur is a very solid character regardless.

Squirtle is so overrated it's not funny. I love the little guy, but I'm pretty sick of people making him out to be the God of Pokemon Trainer's team.

 

[Onomanic]

hey what about Link? I mean, he has plenty of stuff on his boards (Match ups, stuff like that). Why can he be raised from the pits of low tier hell up to middle low?

....actually no let myself answer this one. because of the fact that he doesn't have any tournie rankings? than again, let me go check.... not so sure....

 

[Unusual_Rex]

OK, just need to get this out there:

Position in the tier list does not ****ing matter.

You want your character to be high tier? K, then if they are, everybody will start playing said character, everybody will know the matchup, and your chances at winning will be hurt. Also, you'll no longer be one of the few people playing that mid tier character over the high tiers.

It doesn't matter where a character is. All that matters is that you win with them.

Exactly, just because Snake and Meta Knight are top tier, does not mean they will win 100% of the tourneys. Tiers just show which character is more likely to win. Have you ever watched Taj play as Mewtwo? He beat a Sheik. Mewtwo is like bottom tier, yet he beat a Sheik.

A Captain Falcon (although unlikely) could beat a Snake in a tourney. You just need to have a lot of skill.

 

[chckn]

hey what about Link? I mean, he has plenty of stuff on his boards (Match ups, stuff like that). Why can he be raised from the pits of low tier hell up to middle low?

....actually no let myself answer this one. because of the fact that he doesn't have any tournie rankings? than again, let me go check.... not so sure....

tiers are not determined whether or not a character's board has a character matchup list, It matters what his matchups are. Link really has no matchup advantages. His projectile game is predictable and his moves are laggy. He doesnt place in tournaments either. Sorry but he really has nothing going for him :[

Exactly, just because Snake and Meta Knight are top tier, does not mean they will win 100% of the tourneys. Tiers just show which character is more likely to win. Have you ever watched Taj play as Mewtwo? He beat a Sheik. Mewtwo is like bottom tier, yet he beat a Sheik.

A Captain Falcon (although unlikely) could beat a Snake in a tourney. You just need to have a lot of skill.

Exactly. People misunderstand what a tier list is, and that is what causes the most problems. A tier list does not determine that snake auto wins because he is snake and no matter who you are cf cannot be good. No, a tier list demonstrates who has an advantage based on cummalitive data. despite this, there actually can be advantages to playing low tiers. Look at chudat in melee. Your gameplay is unpredictable which can possibly give you an advantage.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I know it's been said about a million times already but why do you give a **** about your character's tier placement? I'm actually weening off G&W because he's becoming overused. He was my favorite character for a long time but now he's "top tier" and there are millions of noobs using him. I wish he were bottom tier so I could enjoy winning with him more.

 

[Onomanic]

tiers are not determined whether or not a character's board has a character matchup list, It matters what his matchups are. Link really has no matchup advantages. His projectile game is predictable and his moves are laggy. He doesnt place in tournaments either. Sorry but he really has nothing going for him :[



Exactly. People misunderstand what a tier list is, and that is what causes the most problems. A tier list does not determine that snake auto wins because he is snake and no matter who you are cf cannot be good. No, a tier list demonstrates who has an advantage based on cummalitive data. despite this, there actually can be advantages to playing low tiers. Look at chudat in melee. Your gameplay is unpredictable which can possibly give you an advantage.

aww ok then. and I was looking if he had some match up boards. But ****. Oh well. And good description of the tier list. Makes more sense. And with that I guess I can say this...
"Tiers are for queers" (almost and only if you live strictly by them)
LOW TIER FOR THE WIN!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

sheik being better than zelda.

No.....just......no.


I don't care how far Zelda may fall

I'm not sure how far Sheik may rise.


But I do know one thing.


Sheik will never be better or ranked higher than Zelda, not in Brawl at least.

 

[Onomanic]

oh yeah I just remembered. This probably will not help but what about Link's vast amount of ATs. He has quite a lot but that won't help with his tier ranking will it? Well then I know what this means: I need to manually higher his ranking. I need to enter a tournament (some how....)
Anyway I also wanted to post some pros and cons about Link.
Pros:
Broad-sweeping, long-reaching hitboxes on all his sword-based attacks, typical of Swordsman type characters
Neutral Aerial deals decent damage
Long Duration and high Knockback on Up and Down Aerials
Ranged Grab
Tether Recovery Option
With Tether Recovery, can gain invincibility frames by pressing back, then Z-air (Clawshot) twice to immediately grab edge when already holding on to it.
Fast falling speed
Excellent at edgeguarding with many techniques
Up Special Move is a good finisher and edgeguarding tool and is good for breaking combos.
Can recover via bombs (Bomb recovery) and clawshot to keep him alive longer
His Hylian Shield can still act on its own and defend against projectiles from the front sometimes will reflect the projectiles back at the other players.
Can Boomerang Cancel aerials
Smashes are fairly quick, have good knockback, and can score multiple hits
Has 3 projectiles of varying use, 2 of which can help reduce landing lag
All non-special moves provide good spacing, which leaves many opportunities for smashes
Fairly Heavy
Some attacks are fast
Can Quickdraw
Several attacks that hit on on all sides
Gale Boomerang can be avoided when coming back, allowing it to disrupt opponent's recovery
U-tilt has high vertical knockback and is a good combo starter
Great Up Smash, as the first 2 swipes trap the opponent, and sends them flying with third hit. Almost impossible to avoid the final slash if hit with the previous 2, also because the attack hits on both sides with great vertical knockback.
Opponents have hard time approaching, due to his long ranged sword attacks and projectiles.
Neutral A combo is quick, has good range, racks up damage easily, puts good space between him and the opponent, and is a decent combo-breaker
D-tilt is a good combo starter, and has decent range. Can is also an unbelievable meteor smash if used on an opponent hanging from a ledge;
however, it can be really hard to pull off in competitive play due to precise distances between characters and the time opponents usually hang onto ledges.
Surprisingly, decent combos such as "Spin Kick" (N-air followed by Up Special)
Good Short Hop, coupled with fast falling allows for quick, powerful attacks (especially with Boomerang Cancel)
Throws are all decent combo starters
Gale boomerang has good wavebounce
Can perform Linkdashing
Arguably, the fastest finishers among heavyweights
Among Heavy chracters, Link is one of the fastest, most efficient at fighting fast characters. The other competiton being Ike.
F-air is quick, powerful, and leaves the opponent open to another attack.
Up-Special is very good for clearing edge-hoggers due to its multiple hits
Can Gale Guard
Cons:
Most powerful attacks are fairly slow
Long landing lag on Down Aerial and Up Aerial
Gale Boomerang is situational
Poor air speed
His own bombs can be used against him and detonate earlier (though this aids in bomb jumping)
Small jumps lead to a rather weak aerial game
Slow grab recovery if it misses opponent
Weak throwing power
Poor recovery
Easily Juggled
Spin Attack is weaker in the air, due to the lack of charging it
Charged Spin Attack can be predictable, and leaves him wide open to a downward attack to his center.
(BTW: This was taken from Smash Wiki, I didn't make it)

 

[chckn]

I know it's been said about a million times already but why do you give a **** about your character's tier placement? I'm actually weening off G&W because he's becoming overused. He was my favorite character for a long time but now he's "top tier" and there are millions of noobs using him. I wish he were bottom tier so I could enjoy winning with him more.

I dont think the reason of determining a tier list should be to decide whether or not to use your main. If you are good with your character it is irrelevant where they sit on either my, your, or SBR's tier list. Tier lists are just a good way to determine the place

wow that was long and unesescary. But yes, why dont you enter a tournament with m2k and dsf and a bunch of other pros, win with link, and then he will move up on everyones tier list for sure.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I dont think the reason of determining a tier list should be to decide whether or not to use your main. If you are good with your character it is irrelevant where they sit on either my, your, or SBR's tier list. Tier lists are just a good way to determine the place



wow that was long and unesescary. But yes, why dont you enter a tournament with m2k and dsf and a bunch of other pros, win with link, and then he will move up on everyones tier list for sure.

I understand that a tier placement, high or low, shouldn't determine whether or not I use a character. The point I was making is that G&W is being used so much now that everyone knows how to beat him and it takes the fun out of playing that sexy little 2-D hunk of love.

 

[chckn]

I understand that a tier placement, high or low, shouldn't determine whether or not I use a character. The point I was making is that G&W is being used so much now that everyone knows how to beat him and it takes the fun out of playing that sexy little 2-D hunk of love.

Yep thats the downside of a character becoming overplayed. But remember, just because a character is overplayed does not mean that it becomes top tier and vice versa. Look how many people play ike and he still is garbage. Then look at how few play rob and how he places so well in tourneys.

 

[Onomanic]

I dont think the reason of determining a tier list should be to decide whether or not to use your main. If you are good with your character it is irrelevant where they sit on either my, your, or SBR's tier list. Tier lists are just a good way to determine the place



wow that was long and unesescary. But yes, why dont you enter a tournament with m2k and dsf and a bunch of other pros, win with link, and then he will move up on everyones tier list for sure.

lol you have a point (btw I play mid atlantic and i don't think those guys play east coast). which I means I need to practice more.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Yep thats the downside of a character becoming overplayed. But remember, just because a character is overplayed does not mean that it becomes top tier and vice versa. Look how many people play ike and he still is garbage. Then look at how few play rob and how he places so well in tourneys.

Actually, every person I've played on WiFi tries to whip out a ROB. I don't think I have ever lost to a ROB. Mario and G&W destroy ROB. I loooove mario!

 

[Tristan_win]

No.....just......no.


I don't care how far Zelda may fall

I'm not sure how far Sheik may rise.


But I do know one thing.


Sheik will never be better or ranked higher than Zelda, not in Brawl at least.

I beg to differ, Sheik has combos and has a large margin to improve in while Zelda has nothing to improve in besides polish ones fighting style.

I predict in one years time Sheik will be labeled higher then Zelda and that Zamus will be in the high tier ._.

 

[Onomanic]

agreed. Shiek is a good character and I don't know how she got so low on the list.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I beg to differ, Sheik has combos and has a large margin to improve in while Zelda has nothing to improve in besides polish ones fighting style.

I predict in one years time Sheik will be labeled higher then Zelda and that Zamus will be in the high tier ._.

Aside from the F Tilt lock she has on some characters, what "Real" combos does she have? You still can't ignore the fact Sheik has crappy killing potential (And cannot back it up unlike MK), a bad size/weight ratio, Bad matchups in comparision to Zelda, and as for right now, places even worse than Zelda does.

Sheik may and probably will rise, but she will probably never rise above Mid-Mid, which is as far as Zelda would probably drop, not with mch better characters around her competing for a better spot as well.