Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[stoopdklutz]

Ganon should be like around middle of lower-mid.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ AllisBrawl list: I have problems once it gets to Fox and DK so high, and Pika and Olimar are too low as well. Ness is upper mid? Kirby is lower mid? Peach is mid? There's some odd stuff in low tier, too. I think they might benefit from a lot more discussion. After all, we have 500 pages more than them and we still don't have a list completely figured out.

 

[Vex514]

Made a few revisions as I want to try and figure out the most accepted idea of a tier list. The only moves I don't feel completely happy/compliant about making to try and fit suggestions was Fox and Ike but my own experience can't account for others. As for not putting falco above Toon Link or Pikachu, I still hold that he's not justifiably good enough to compete in top tier imo and that Toon Link and Pikachu just seem to show more deadly force behind them as Falco is easier to read once you get past his lasers.

Top:
Snake
MK
Marth
G&W
Rob

High:
Pikachu
Toon Link
Falco
Olimar
Wolf
DeDeDe

Upper-Mid:
Fox
IC
Pit
Zelda
Lucario
Wario
Ike
DK
Luigi
ZSS
Kirby
Diddy
Sheik

Lower-Mid:
Sonic
Jiggs
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Link
Peach
PT
Bowser
Yoshi

Low:
Samus
Ganondorf
CF

 

[SaxDude93]

Top:
Snake
MK
Marth
G&W
Rob

High:
Pikachu-Projectile is better imo, has better combos and set ups for more damgage.
Toon Link
Fox-Very quick damager with little to no problems killing with his bair, dsmash, fsmash. shine stall, Dash Shine. I just find that fox has a lot of unused potential to be incredibly deadly if used properly.
Wolf-it may be true he has downsides but what i see in wolf is that he has excellent control. With his shine-counter and quick attacks he can control a match which i find more important then killing early on because if your in control, you'll get the kill eventually without taking to much damage yoursef.
Falco-Probably one of my more controversial choices but I keep playing falco trying to see what the deals about. He has poor killing potential and a horrible recovery that i see and relies to heavily on spam. Yes he can infinite but stay away from walls and learn to tech your landings and he can't infinite. Perhaps the 40% chain grab could be helpful but when it comes down to it, falco needs a lot more then 40% to kill where as other better characters don't.
Olimar-Yes, he has a horrible recovery we've realized this but that doesn't take away his reliability. He's a great menace and should rely on mind games to win a match. If your not paying attention close enough, he can quickly turn a match against you.

Upper-Mid:
IC
DeDeDe-I've moved DeDeDe down for the fact that many characters, especially the high and top tier characters, decimate him. All of the above can take complete control over a DeDeDe and just hit him like a big wall.
Pit
Ike-Probably my most controbersial placements and I'd like to put him higher. B-sticking with him is excellent as is fast falling his arials to cancel lag and jump into **** and ftilts. His super armor proves very useful and he can kill at incredibly low percentages. Although juggable, his low kill % allows him to stay even in a seemingly (damage wise) lopsided matchup. Against smart players they can dominate him but if your the smarter player, Ike is a top choice in my books.
Zelda
Lucario-He's getting more tourny play and frankly I have great experience using him. He does have killing problems at low damage but if your a smart enough player you can outwit your opponent and avoid their killing moves. Once he hits 100% lucario becomes a machine as long as you don't stumble into something stupid.
Wario
DK
Luigi
ZSS-For the other guy
Diddy
Kirby
Sheik-yes, we all hate sheik now don't we. She still damages very well. Yes there is killing problems but she is still up there in racking it up.
Jiggs

Lower-Mid:
Sonic-Im putting sonic here for potential. I find him very easy to play and i love his style and the mind games he uses. He has a lot of potential to me and i predict will begin show it when he gets more tournament play.
Link-Link i believe got better in this game but is just outshined by his toon version. He isn't one of the worsts. far from it imo.
Mario
Lucas
Ness
Peach
PT-in general Although i'd place squirtle upper-mid above DeDeDe, Ivysaur and Charizard ruin him as a whole for an upper-mid spot.
Bowser
Yoshi

Low:
Samus
CF
Ganondorf

My rants

Ike-I'm sick of noobs coming into this board and other boards complaining about how overpowered this guy is when the player doesn't know how to shield or dodge. It's sad how such an underpowered character gets all this undeserved praise.

Ike is truly the noob killer of brawl. He's so predictable, he's to slow and his recover is garbage. He's got his range and power but all of his good killing moves are also his good damage moves(ftilt bair). This is a serious problem because he's never gonna kill with his fsmash, usmash, dair, dtilt and dsmash. Those moves are simply to slow or/and situational. This is a problem because Ike's ftilt is his best combat move and killer so the damage and knockback reduction rule will affect him greatly.

This also applies to his bair but it's somewhat predictable because he's jumping to accomplish this move. His other aerials are also predictable and easy to avoid because they're not as fast or as strong as his bair. Shield pressuring also doesn't apply to Ike because he's even to slow for that! It's quite sad the way Ike can't chase, combo and edge guard well because he's to slow and most characters can stall easily to counter shield pressuring tactics.

His edge guarding sucks because he has horrible aerial DI and his moves are predictable and will be air dodged. His moves are all mediocre as well. B: to predictable and easy to avoid. B>redictable as an attack and bad as a recovery move. B^:Spamming doesn't work because you can just shield and grab. When your above him you can simply air dodge. As a recovery move it's atrocious. His counter is the worst counter in the game and is just an overall bad move. Let's face it Ike doesn't even have good grabs because they're all weak and can't combo. Ike has absolutely nothing going for him. No grab game, bad Bmoves, bad recovery and isn't heavy enough to contemplate for it, bad recovery and a surprising amount of trouble killing due to slowness, predictable and damage claus.

PS:His jab combo is decent but easy to grab Ike out of.

DDD-True, but tourney's don't lie. Just because he is beasting tournies, he has to be moved up to the next tier.

Bottom Tier- CF<Ganondorf. Fact.

Jiggs- Low or Bottom. Despite her air game, she has a crap ground game that makes her not really good. Other characters WOP better than her and have better Air And Ground games. Rest has also been nerfed.

I see other problems, but I can't make a good argument for them.

 

[Vex514]

Thanks for the input and I understand where your coming from with Ike as I mentioned that I mentioned his placing only would take account when your the smarter player and able to trick up your opponent. I'm fully aware that a smarter player can easily take advantage of Ike as i have done plenty of times.

As for your other problems you don't have arguments for, please mention the characters in question so we may discuss what should be or should not be done with them.

I'm not trying to make my tier list the accepted list, I'm attempting to start off with what I feel is close and have everyone contribute until we can agree on a list with little deviation from other parties so whatever you would like to say it'd be appreciated.

 

[SaxDude93]

I see problems with Fox, Wario, and Wolf for starters. Fox and Wolf should be lowered and Wario raised.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

I have recently discovered what is possibly the worst tier list known to man.

High Tier
Snake
C. Falcon
Olimar
DDD
Samus
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Link
Meta-Knight
Luigi


Mid Tier
Sonic
Yoshi
Kirby
Ike
Bowser
Fox
Falco
ZSS
Ness
Lucas
Jigglypuff
DK
Wario
Shiek
Charizard
Peach
Toon Link
Mario
Game and Watch


Low Tier
Wolf
R.O.B.
Marth
Ganon
Pit
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Squirtle
Zelda
Ice Climbers
T. Link

So many things wrong with this.

 

[Vex514]

I see problems with Fox, Wario, and Wolf for starters. Fox and Wolf should be lowered and Wario raised.

I still believe wolf to have many strong points, would we argue Wolf at being placed top of upper-mid? Fox I can see bumped one or two more places perhaps under pit or zelda. Wario I keep hearing good and bad things about him depending on the person speaking ranging from wonderful to horrible things. I have mixed feelings on him and I don't think he could compete for a high tier spot perhaps under wolf/above wolf as top of upper but i don't believe he should be scratching high tier at this moment.

 

[stoopdklutz]

LOL'd at Meta Knight not second, and Ice Climbers 2nd to last.

 

[SaxDude93]

Fox is more or less average, this time around. So yeah, it depends on what you hear. Wolf, at first godly, has become predictable. His air games are average, and his ground moves are used for damage dealing, not KO'ing. Plus, Wolf's recovery sucks. He's low-high, top-mid.

And yes, that one tier list does suck.

 

[stoopdklutz]

I dunno, I might put Wolf under IC in mid.

 

[Vex514]

So putting that into perspective, how does this work out for high-upper tiers.

High:
Pikachu
Toon Link
Falco
Olimar
DeDeDe

Upper-Mid:
Wolf
Wario
IC
Pit
Fox
Zelda
Lucario
Ike
DK
Luigi
ZSS
Kirby
Diddy
Sheik

 

[Nestec]

So the general agreement is that Lucas is higher than Ness? Or is it the other way around?

I think both have a pretty decent approach game, but Lucas' wavebounced PK-Fire always works better for me when it comes to spacing.

But I've also found that Lucas' attacks don't exactly hit as often as Ness' attacks do..

As far as air-game goes, I think Ness wins. I've heard that Lucas' ground-game is better, but why is that?

 

[TehBo49]

Lucas's ground moves are faster & most of them are disjointed & have more range.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

I found it here: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=43500315

Looking at the link and the topic creator's sig should explain everything.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I just looked at that tier list and realized that CF was top. I ws just crackin up for like 5 minutes and that be must hav been SMOKIN crack 4 like 5 HOURS b4 he made that list!!! rotflol!!

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I just started playing Captain Falcon, 'cause I wanted to main him. (Along with Marth, Snake, and Fox). And have no idea why why he's so low. I think he should be in Low-Mid.

 

[SaxDude93]

Ummm... because other characters are better than the Captain?

 

[Kiwikomix]

I just started playing Captain Falcon, 'cause I wanted to main him. (Along with Marth, Snake, and Fox). And have no idea why why he's so low. I think he should be in Low-Mid.

Here's why he's the worst.
He hasn't changed much from Melee, and what has changed has been nerfed.
In Brawl, hitstun barely exists. This means that Cpt Falcon can't combo ridiculously like he could in Melee. His running speed was nerfed. His knee was nerfed and is harder to sweetspot. His moves are laggy enough to be punished even if they hit.
I will say that Falcon Punch was buffed. But the chances of him hitting with that are very slim.

 

[RedfishX]

Here's why he's the worst.
He hasn't changed much from Melee, and what has changed has been nerfed.
In Brawl, hitstun barely exists. This means that Cpt Falcon can't combo ridiculously like he could in Melee. His running speed was nerfed. His knee was nerfed and is harder to sweetspot. His moves are laggy enough to be punished even if they hit.
I will say that Falcon Punch was buffed. But the chances of him hitting with that are very slim.

QFT.

To sum it up...he's just sorta slow.

Anyways, I revised my UnOfficial Tier List.

KEEP IN MIND before you read --- I put PT as four char's: Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, and Switch-PT.

REDFISHX TIER LIST

Last updated: 6/08/08 --- Version 1.5

---TOP TIER---

1) Snake
2) Meta Knight

---HIGH TIER---

3) Mr. Game and Watch
4) Toon Link
5) Marth
6) King Dedede
7) Falco
8) R.O.B.
9) Pikachu
10) Diddy Kong
11) Pit
12) Wolf

---UPPER MIDDLE TIER---

13) Ice Climbers
14) Olimar
15) Zelda
16) Wario
17) Pokémon Trainer - Rotation
18) Fox
19) Lucario
20) Zero Suit Samus
21) Squirtle

---LOWER MIDDLE TIER---

22) Kirby
23) Ike
24) Donkey Kong
25) Bowser
26) Luigi
27) Lucas
28) Ivysaur

---LOW TIER---

29) Sheik
30) Charizard
31) Samus
32) Ness
33) Mario
34) Sonic
35) Link

---BOTTOM TIER---

36) Peach
37) Jigglypuff
38) Yoshi
39) Ganondorf
40) Captain Falcon


Remind me again, why are the Ice Climbers in the same position every single time? Don't flame me for not knowing.

Basically, I totally revamped the High Tier. Otherwise, most of it stays the same.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Hm, I think TL is a bit high, but it doesnt seem too far off in most places.
I liked the idea and inclusion of the PKM switch holding a spot.

 

[jiovanni007]

QFT.

To sum it up...he's just sorta slow.

Anyways, I revised my UnOfficial Tier List.

KEEP IN MIND before you read --- I put PT as four char's: Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, and Switch-PT.

REDFISHX TIER LIST

Last updated: 6/08/08 --- Version 1.5

---TOP TIER---

1) Snake
2) Meta Knight

---HIGH TIER---

3) Mr. Game and Watch
4) Toon Link
5) Marth
6) King Dedede
7) Falco
8) R.O.B.
9) Pikachu
10) Diddy Kong
11) Pit
12) Wolf

---UPPER MIDDLE TIER---

13) Ice Climbers
14) Olimar
15) Zelda
16) Wario
17) Pokémon Trainer - Rotation
18) Fox
19) Lucario
20) Zero Suit Samus
21) Squirtle

---LOWER MIDDLE TIER---

22) Kirby
23) Ike
24) Donkey Kong
25) Bowser
26) Luigi
27) Lucas
28) Ivysaur

---LOW TIER---

29) Sheik
30) Charizard
31) Samus
32) Ness
33) Mario
34) Sonic
35) Link

---BOTTOM TIER---

36) Peach
37) Jigglypuff
38) Yoshi
39) Ganondorf
40) Captain Falcon


Remind me again, why are the Ice Climbers in the same position every single time? Don't flame me for not knowing.

Basically, I totally revamped the High Tier. Otherwise, most of it stays the same.

Pretty good except for a few things that I see, As far as the second tier goes, I'm pretty sure that Marth, ROB, D3, Falco, and GaW have pretty much separated themselves from the rest of the cast and should have their own tier. As a Kirby main you should no doubt know that Kirby should go in the #17 spot. Toon Link goes VVV, not sure exactly, but his tournament standings still don't reflect his potential. Combine spots 9-20 to make the Upper tier and add spot 21 to the next tier to make the middle tier. My reasoning is that there are many useable characters in Brawl, so the name Lower Middle tier is a bit misleading. Also, your middle tier is simply too small, I would consider moving Mario and Sheik up. Diddy no doubt goes down into the middle tier as well. Too lazy to finish now but still looks okay I guess.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Coment on my improved tier list, make sugestions <3

Top:
Snake
MK
G&W

High:
Marth
D3
ROB
Wario
Falco
Pikachu
IC
TL
Zelda
Wolf

Upper-Mid:
DK
Olimar
Pit
Fox
ZSS
Diddy
Kirby
Luigi
Mario
Lucario

Lower-Mid:
Sheik
Lucas
Ness
Peach
Jiggs
PT
Bowser
Sonic
Yoshi
Ike

Low/Bottom (Combined just so it looks like a decent sized tier >.>):
Link
Samus
Ganon
CF

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Redfish: I agree that Kirby should take his place above Lucario, Zamus and Fox. I also don't think that even the constantly switching variety of PT should be that high. The IC's are great but they might be below Wario. DK should be moved up, and Ike down.

 

[DanGR]

this list

can you say "randomly generated"?

his list

wow, pretty good. I'd move kirby up above squirtle though.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I just started playing Captain Falcon, 'cause I wanted to main him. (Along with Marth, Snake, and Fox). And have no idea why why he's so low. I think he should be in Low-Mid.

You've asked for.

SECRET TECHNIQUE #1 GIGA COPYPASTA IMPACT!!!!!!!


Anyways, CF is considered so horrible because he's a Melee character in Brawl Engine, was apparently is a HORRIBLE mix and has ruined what he was in Melee. His comboing potential was what made him in Melee, without that it really cripples his game. He has Atrocious Priority, since a great majority of his moves can be stopped by a simple jab. Average strength attack with either a lot of ending lag or Startup lag, that don't even do damage worth it. He cannot approach AT ALL, he's probably one of the easiest characters to camp once you get into high levels of play, easily telegraphed, has trouble racking up damage, nerfed Knee, the fact that so many others either are great newcomers, or Veterans that got buffed doesn't help him either. When you add to the fact he has likely the worst matchups in the game and Horrible Tourney outings so far, he definately at this point in time is a serious canadate for the worst character in Brawl. Things aren't looking so good for him at all.

Ganon actually makes his hits counts, Autocanceled Dair into Upsmash is 50%, probably more damage then two falcon punches. He has a great tech chasing game, is a heavy and can tank things out, Ganoncide when he gets up a stock. Ok priority and can acutally approach and better aerials that really put the hurting on someone unlike Falcon. While his matchups are bad, they're not quite as bad as Falcon's with virtually no advantages against anyone. I still believe Ganon is still not that good, but he's not nearly as bad as Falcon. If you ever want to see a good example of how well Ganon can be played, look up Sliq, a member of GUNPUNCH!

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Hold it. I thoght the Pokemon trainer and his Pokemon will only be in one place because you cannot play as one and you are forced to rotate when you get KOed.

 

[Theftz22]

And I thought Unusual rex was intelligent (shakes head sadly).

I think that a lot of people are underrating olimar right now. Yes, his recovery is truly terrible, but since every other aspect of his game is so close to perfect, it does not warrant putting him into mid tier. High tier definitely. Wario is also definitely middle of high. Only his lack of range and a projectile hurt him. Plus, he's got matchups and tourney results to back him up.

 

[Ratherion]

Hold it. I thoght the Pokemon trainer and his Pokemon will only be in one place because you cannot play as one and you are forced to rotate when you get KOed.

You wouldn't want to play as a single Pokémon anyhow, they're really better as a team.

And yes, they should be grouped together, some people just chose to pull them apart.

 

[biohazard930]

**** general consensus, because people are ********. A major part of the reason DK is so good is because of his massive spatial control. Sure, he's a big target, but being big also means his aerial control is absurd, and when coupled with the fact that all his attacks have good range, it means you're going to have a difficult time dodging his attacks. Not to mention his ftilt has one of the longest ranges in the game, his fsmash and usmash have ludicrous range (his fsmash probably has the same range as Wolf's), his fastest aerials are two of his main killing moves (bair and uair), his PUUUNCH! has invincibility frames during the PUUUNCH!, his downB is surprisingly useful (just one or two slaps, not much lag, hardly punishable), his bthrow kills at mid 100%'s, and he's difficult to gimp (if you aren't Kirby, who would still have at least a little difficulty gimping him.

*Consensus. General is repetitive. There is no consensus that is not general.

That aside, Yoshi also has a decent shot at gimping DK. Dair spike.

 

[Recognize]

My thoughts on the tier list. I just pretty much took Red fishs format and put it how I saw this.

---TOP TIER---

1) Snake
2) Meta Knight
3) Mr. Game and Watch

---UPPER TIER---
4) Marth
5) Falco
6) King Dedede
7) Toon Link
8) R.O.B.

---HIGH TIER---
9) Pikachu
10) Diddy Kong
11) Pit
12) Wolf
13) Olimar
14) Ice Climbers
15) Fox
16) Zelda

---MIDDLE TIER---
17) Wario
18) Lucario
19) Kirby
20) Ike
21) Donkey Kong
22) Zero Suit Samus
23) Bowser
24) Luigi
25) Lucas
26) Pokemon Trainer


---LOW TIER---
27) Mario
28) Sheik
29) Samus
30) Ness
31) Sonic
32) Link

---BOTTOM TIER---

33) Peach
34) Jigglypuff
35) Yoshi
36) Ganondorf
37) Captain Falcon

 

[Ratherion]

My friend mastered Yoshi's Dair to Footstool combo, it's nasty.

 

[hizzlum]

My tier list for the three top groups(top,high,upper)
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great macth-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the Snake and MK standard)
G&W
DDD
Falco
Marth
ROB

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Wolf
Pikachu
DK
Pit
Others could be added to the upper tier but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid(i can't think of any others who can be in the upper tier without creating a placemnt disscusion)
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one),ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not)

 

[SaxDude93]

My tier list

I like

10char

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falco is not above Marth. He doesn't have the match-ups and he hasn't done half of what Marth has done in tournaments.

There is no evidence that Falco should be higher then Marth.

Or R.O.B for that matter.

 

[thesage]

The characters that I think are viable for top tier that aren't Snake or Metaknight.

ROB: (annoying projectile, really good recovery, good range, he's just good at everything, but unlike Melee Mario he's better at everything than a lot of characters).

GaW: Even though he's light he gets kills really early and easily. All of his hitboxes are weird (u-smash lolwtf) and stay out for a long time. Bair sheildstabs almost 100 percent of the time. Decent recovery as well.

King DDD: destroys 5 characters completely through cgs. His cgs set up for edgeguarding which he is good at. Nice range, a little on the slow side though. He's the hardest character to KO in brawl IMO because he's the heaviest character in the game and has a really good recovery (Why does he have a better one than Kirby?).

There are others that are good, but I'm just too lazy to list them lol. These are the three I think have the best chance of making it. This comes from talking to people at tournaments and such. I would like to point out something interesting that this area generally believes Marth is overrated and Lucas is underrated, but I won't really comment on that lol. I don't really care that much. Just felt like commenting.

Edit: I would also like to add that tiers are pretty useless for this game because it all boils down to a characters matchup with Metaknight and Snake right now. The SBR should wait until next summer until they release a tier list.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Falco is not above Marth. He doesn't have the match-ups and he hasn't done half of what Marth has done in tournaments.

There is no evidence that Falco should be higher then Marth.

Or R.O.B for that matter.

It's useless Emblem Lord, most of the people on here don't recognize Marth's strengths beyond the Short Hop Double Fair and Forward Smash, which, we both know Marth is NOT about.

I will firmly believe that Marth is Top Tier until Marth no longer consistently gets into the qualifying rounds of Tournaments...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth isn't overrated at all.

Where are the legions of fans claiming that Marth is amazing.

The only thing I see on these boards is Marth mains defending Marth cuz people say he sucks.

It's even worse on gamefaqs and all is brawl.

 

[hizzlum]

Falco is not above Marth. He doesn't have the match-ups and he hasn't done half of what Marth has done in tournaments.

There is no evidence that Falco should be higher then Marth.

Or R.O.B for that matter.

Thanks for the suggestion. I guess I have to agree with you on that one beacuse falco dosent do super well at tournies, and his match ups are good,but not as good as marth
I revised the list as I agree with your consensus on falco's not-great tournament ranking/matchups.I still believe that falco's CG,pillaring(d-throw to dair) and SHDL are ket techniques in falco's metagame that keep him in the high tier group

The three best tiers in brawl

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Wolf
Pikachu
DK
Pit
Others could be added to the upper tier but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid(i can't think of any others who can be in the upper tier without creating a placemnt disscusion)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Marth isn't overrated at all.

Where are the legions of fans claiming that Marth is amazing.

The only thing I see on these boards is Marth mains defending Marth cuz people say he sucks.

It's even worse on gamefaqs and all is brawl.

**** right that's true, Gamefaqs is just ****, and I haven't had enough experiance on AiB, but just from glancing from there Tier list topic it's not much bettter if not worse.