Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm pretty sure MK's tornado is top tier on wifi. MK w/o tornado is actually really meh on wifi. Also, I know a casual Snake player that abuses tilts a lot...lol...I mean he plays with competitive people, so he kind of just learns stuff, but he's probably the best casual Snake player out there =3

I'm telling you, I probably have the WORST Snake on Smashboards. I am not even kidding. I don't know how guys like Cort and DSF do it, I keep trying to make him my secondary behind MK, but right now I have a far better DDD and Wolf than I do him.



Granted, I'm not all that good in the first place, well maybe in correlation in Game knowledge and intelligence, but it's just horrible -_-.

 

[M.K]

Why isn't Lucario high tier? Crazy hitboxes, a somewhat spammy projectiles, increasing power, what more could you ask for?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Why isn't Lucario high tier? Crazy hitboxes, a somewhat spammy projectiles, increasing power, what more could you ask for?

A lot.
Lucario can't do much damage until he has his modifiers up, so he must be losing in order to win, and he's light enough to be killed before high percents anyway. His range is decent but not that great, his projectile really isn't spammy at all, and his recovery is easy to gimp since it does no damage and has a fair amount of windup lag.
Just a few things.

 

[stoopdklutz]

If he was heavier, he could be, but he isn't. Although High risk does equal great rewards, most competitive people dislike risks, IMO. Lucario has too many variables to be very effective, although he is an above average-if not gimmicky- character.

 

[MattC13]

I've mastered Lucario's moves. I know how to get rid of my oppenent quickly, and let my damage build up as well.

 

[TehBo49]

A lot.
Lucario can't do much damage until he has his modifiers up, so he must be losing in order to win, and he's light enough to be killed before high percents anyway. His range is decent but not that great, his projectile really isn't spammy at all, and his recovery is easy to gimp since it does no damage and has a fair amount of windup lag.
Just a few things.

Lucario's range is actually very good. One of the best in the game. He is also a slightly heavy character, not light. I don't know if I'd call him high tier though. Definitely high mid.

 

[stoopdklutz]

*resists flame bait*

@ TeHBo- Olimar will probably stay in middle tier because although he is INSANE at doing damage ( search youtube for "Combo on Fatal") , he is pretty easilt gimped, although his advantages outweigh that, IMO.

 

[Browny]

A lot.
Lucario can't do much damage until he has his modifiers up, so he must be losing in order to win, and he's light enough to be killed before high percents anyway. His range is decent but not that great, his projectile really isn't spammy at all, and his recovery is easy to gimp since it does no damage and has a fair amount of windup lag.
Just a few things.

HOLD IT

hes light is he? hes actually well above average weight. we, at least heavier than mario. but still heavier than about 3/5 of the cast iirc

and lucarios range isnt decent, its flat out insane.

if you want more, fast forward to 1:08 in this video, watch the fsmash range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-0vEfge2M

not many characters can outrange the fsmash and his u-air. (off the top of my head, only dedede's glancing blow on his fsmash has bigger range, and wolfs sweetspot fsmash. lucario actually outranges ike, since he moves forward when he fsmashes. and of course if you stutter step lucarios fsmash, well its simply the biggest in the game)

his projectile doesnt need to be spammy like TL's, when it can KO like a gordo (although requires at least 110% as oppose to 60% for a gordo)

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ TehBo: I dunno, his range isn't really that good. I mean, it's good for someone without a sword or vines, but otherwise it seems only a little above average. The disjoint on a lot of attacks is good, but it doesn't matter as much if the attacks do terrible damage anyway. That's the only reason besides recovery Ivysaur is so terrible.

Edit: By "light" I mean that he doesn't stay on the stage long enough for his sub-par recovery to not be a weakness.

 

[TehBo49]

*resists flame bait*

@ TeHeBo- Olimar will probably stay in middle tier because although he is INSANE at doing damage ( search youtube for "Combo on Fatal") , he is pretty easilt gimped, although his advantages outweigh that, IMO.

Go back a few pages. I've already explained that Olimar's recovery isn't that big of an issue. Link has more trouble recovering than Olimar.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Yea I think so too, but Olimar is pretty gimpable. Still, he can damage like a m*t*e*f*c*e*.

 

[TehBo49]

@ TehBo: I dunno, his range isn't really that good. I mean, it's good for someone without a sword or vines, but otherwise it seems only a little above average. The disjoint on a lot of attacks is good, but it doesn't matter as much if the attacks do terrible damage anyway. That's the only reason besides recovery Ivysaur is so terrible.

Edit: By "light" I mean that he doesn't stay on the stage long enough for his sub-par recovery to not be a weakness.

His range is really good. F-smash has about as much range as Marth's f-smash.

 

[TehBo49]

Yea I think so too, but Olimar is pretty gimpable. Still, he can damage like a m*t*e*f*c*e*.

I agree that his recovery is gimpable but not enough to merit middle tier. High tier is more accurate.

 

[M.K]

A lot.
Lucario can't do much damage until he has his modifiers up, so he must be losing in order to win, and he's light enough to be killed before high percents anyway. His range is decent but not that great, his projectile really isn't spammy at all, and his recovery is easy to gimp since it does no damage and has a fair amount of windup lag.
Just a few things.

Lucario has decent but no great range? I'm sorry, you have obviously never played Lucario very well. Lucario does average damage at low percentages and amazing damage at high percentages. Not many people know that his neutral A combo can KO at high levels (OMG, just like SNAKE, INORIGHT?!!). He is a little over average weight, so no, he can not get killed early except for a mistake or poor judgement on the player's part. His range....oh my god, you've got to be kidding me. Lucario's range is unbelievably large, and his attacks can still connect after the initial thrust in the attack's "residue" (i.e, as long as Lucario stays in the extended position on his USmash, his attack will connect). His projectile may not be Fox's Blaster, but it's decent enough to disrupt an offensive opponent. His recovery....wow, yeah, it's pretty obvious that you haven't played Lucario. How can an invincible Lucario (during Extremespeed) be gimped? It can't be, and that is the best part about Lucario.
I'm sorry, but he deserves high tier. Really, no joke.

 

[Browny]

lol, refer to my post about 6 posts up. marths fsmash has deceptively average range, plenty of characters outrange marth now. although his shieldbreaker has a bit more.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Meta-Kirby: Uh... no. Lucario does poor damage at low percents and slightly above average damage at high percents. I mean, his smash attacks do, at the most, 10% uncharged and his tilts are worse, as are his aerial moves. Look at the Lucario guide, I'm sure it mentions it there.
And as for gimpable recovery... Lucario is not heavy enough to stay on the stage forever and not light enough to come back to the stage often without using upB. If he goes for the ledge, he gets gimped, since the lack of damage can't knock someone off. If he goes for just above the ledge, the person on the ledge can just use their ledge attack. ExtremeSpeed doesn't go far enough for him to land in a different place. Really, if people would anticipate where Lucario will land (which they are perfectly able of doing) he would be one of the more easily gimped characters.

 

[SaxDude93]

Lucario has decent but no great range? I'm sorry, you have obviously never played Lucario very well. Lucario does average damage at low percentages and amazing damage at high percentages. Not many people know that his neutral A combo can KO at high levels (OMG, just like SNAKE, INORIGHT?!!). He is a little over average weight, so no, he can not get killed early except for a mistake or poor judgement on the player's part. His range....oh my god, you've got to be kidding me. Lucario's range is unbelievably large, and his attacks can still connect after the initial thrust in the attack's "residue" (i.e, as long as Lucario stays in the extended position on his USmash, his attack will connect). His projectile may not be Fox's Blaster, but it's decent enough to disrupt an offensive opponent. His recovery....wow, yeah, it's pretty obvious that you haven't played Lucario. How can an invincible Lucario (during Extremespeed) be gimped? It can't be, and that is the best part about Lucario.
I'm sorry, but he deserves high tier. Really, no joke.

To me, Lucario is more "floaty" than anything, light or heavy. And the "floatiness" can be a downside. And according to M2K, Snake's jab kills at about 140ish. What does Lucario's kill at? And the bad part about Lucario's recovery is that it deals no damage. Even though he may be invincible, his recovery can't stop ledgehogger's ledgehogging.

 

[M.K]

@ Meta-Kirby: Uh... no. Lucario does poor damage at low percents and slightly above average damage at high percents. I mean, his smash attacks do, at the most, 10% uncharged and his tilts are worse, as are his aerial moves. Look at the Lucario guide, I'm sure it mentions it there.
And as for gimpable recovery... Lucario is not heavy enough to stay on the stage forever and not light enough to come back to the stage often without using upB. If he goes for the ledge, he gets gimped, since the lack of damage can't knock someone off. If he goes for just above the ledge, the person on the ledge can just use their ledge attack. ExtremeSpeed doesn't go far enough for him to land in a different place. Really, if people would anticipate where Lucario will land (which they are perfectly able of doing) he would be one of the more easily gimped characters.

Whatever does the job to get the opponent to a killable percentage. I mean, he isn't the most powerful character, but he is not a poor damager...

A smart Lucario player will never go for the ledge (if it consists of a threat), and they would aim for the wall, where he could wall-cling and use the wall to jump back on to the platform. If he goes for above the ledge, his invincibility frames kick in and the ledge attack will merely do nothing to Lucario as he passes by. Lucario is not a gimpable character, at least compared to a select few other characters!

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Lucario's Side B can kill (I don't know at what percentage), and can be used from a jab combo, if that's what was being talked about when someone said his jab combo can kill.

 

[Kiwikomix]

A smart Lucario player will never go for the ledge (if it consists of a threat), and they would aim for the wall, where he could wall-cling and use the wall to jump back on to the platform. If he goes for above the ledge, his invincibility frames kick in and the ledge attack will merely do nothing to Lucario as he passes by. Lucario is not a gimpable character, at least compared to a select few other characters!

Well... yeah. Not compared to the tethers and Link. But his upB is among the most useless for recovery, you have to admit. And what if you're fighting on a stage without a wall, like Smashville or Lylat Cruise? Nothing to cling there...

 

[TehBo49]

lol, refer to my post about 6 posts up. marths fsmash has deceptively average range, plenty of characters outrange marth now. although his shieldbreaker has a bit more.

Thanks for the picture. I knew Lucario's f-smash was long, but not that long.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Lucario has decent but no great range? I'm sorry, you have obviously never played Lucario very well. Lucario does average damage at low percentages and amazing damage at high percentages. Not many people know that his neutral A combo can KO at high levels (OMG, just like SNAKE, INORIGHT?!!). He is a little over average weight, so no, he can not get killed early except for a mistake or poor judgement on the player's part. His range....oh my god, you've got to be kidding me. Lucario's range is unbelievably large, and his attacks can still connect after the initial thrust in the attack's "residue" (i.e, as long as Lucario stays in the extended position on his USmash, his attack will connect). His projectile may not be Fox's Blaster, but it's decent enough to disrupt an offensive opponent. His recovery....wow, yeah, it's pretty obvious that you haven't played Lucario. How can an invincible Lucario (during Extremespeed) be gimped? It can't be, and that is the best part about Lucario.
I'm sorry, but he deserves high tier. Really, no joke.

Lucario's A,A,A will only probably KO really high, unused, which i doubt since its a common used move. He's only really averageish weight,probably around Marths weight, and really floaty. He does have good range for a non-swordsman, but only average range when not high on %. His hitboxes only linger for about half-1 second, but those lingering attacks(u-smash, f-smash) are laggy and leave him open. He does have one of the best projectiles. His recovery can be gimped because it has some startup lag, and does no damage so if you dont land on stage, and the opponent edgehogs, your dead

 

[M.K]

Lucario's A,A,A will only probably KO really high, unused, which i doubt since its a common used move. He's only really averageish weight,probably around Marths weight, and really floaty. He does have good range for a non-swordsman, but only average range when not high on %. His hitboxes only linger for about half-1 second, but those lingering attacks(u-smash, f-smash) are laggy and leave him open. He does have one of the best projectiles. His recovery can be gimped because it has some startup lag, and does no damage so if you dont land on stage, and the opponent edgehogs, your dead

Range is not affected by his percentages. Other than that, you are mostly correct.

 

[Browny]

ARGH so many things wrong

marth is a lightweight, lucario is a lot heavier than marth. the eight list thread shows hes as heavy to marth as snake is to mario (at least very close to that)

"no. Lucario does poor damage at low percents and slightly above average damage at high percents. I mean, his smash attacks do, at the most, 10% uncharged and his tilts are worse, as are his aerial moves. Look at the Lucario guide, I'm sure it mentions it there."

ugh its quite obvious you have NEVER played lucario, at least turn on brawl, go into training and see for yourself.

at 0%, his ftilt does 9%, d-air does 11. by the time lucario is high %, he doesnt do above eaverage damage, hes doing almost the most damage in the game, comparable to ganondorf. 26% projectile, 22% d-air, 22 (or something) uncharged fsmash, 18% ftilt, 19% side b.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I really wish people would stop comparing Lucario to Marth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why is that?

 

[fkacyan]

Because they are in no way similar characters?

/duh

 

[DanGR]

You might wish to reconsider your opinions on certain of the characters on the list, most notably Zelda, Din's fire spamming is on the way back (after people figured out ways to counter it, Zelda players have been finding more and more effective counters to those counters), and that's far from her only trick.

Zelda is a high tier at least.

I've had over 300 matches against Zelda. I'm not going to say she's high tier with my experience at least. I've found ways to break her down. I'm not sure what "effective counters" you're thinking of. I haven't seen much. and you're right Din's isn't that great at all.

I really wish people would stop comparing Lucario to Marth.

yeh, umm...I don't really see where y'all are going either...

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Djbrowny: You got me, I'm making arguments against a character without ever playing them. Good call...

First off, 9% IS worse than 10%. That's math. Also, you admit his most damaging move besides the aura sphere (which only does 13% fully charged) does 11% and, though it has multiple hits, it will go stale quickly. With the max aura level Lucario does the damage you've listed, but he'll never get to that level anyway in a competitive game. He's far too easy to KO for his damage multipliers to be as useful as they should be.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because they are in no way similar characters?

/duh

Yes because surely you cannot compare the competitive viability of a character like Snake to Captain Falcon.
Or compare the effectiveness of a strategy that two characters may use./sarcasm

 

[fkacyan]

Yes because surely you cannot compare the competitive viability of a character like Snake to Captain Falcon.
Or compare the effectiveness of a strategy that two characters may use./sarcasm

Seeing as no two characters really play the same and they all have extremely different matchups, no, that's not really viable, especially this early in the metagame when we don't have much to go by.

 

[Browny]

how is he easy to KO?

hes extremely difficult to juggle with his d-air that goes through just about everything. his f-air also goes through many attacks, trying to attack him off stage without a sword wont work.

hes very evasive by nature, fastest and longest roll dodge in the game, his jumps are fast and go very far (i cant think of any who beat him who dont float, maybe ZSS) and having a fully charged aura sphere in hand makes the opponent think twice before going for a KO move. if they miss it slightly, theres no dodging it.

 

[Kiwikomix]

You act like the opponent will never be ready for a dair. And obviously he's not THAT evasive if he gets hit all the time. And covering distance quickly =/= evasive, otherwise Sonic would be top. Also, a good player shouldn't be letting Lucario charge up his aura sphere willy nilly without any punishment at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I just get this gut feeling that Lucario mainers compare Lucario to Marth because he has Marth's old combos and because Lucario has similar range to Marth.

So they immediately compare him to Marth. Which I find annoying because although they have some traits that are similar they are completely different beasts.

Maybe they think that comparing him to Marth will put Lucario in a better light. Which is silly to do since the community as a whole does not hold Marth in high regard.

For example, pretty much the entire Tri-state area of PA/NJ/NY thinks that Marth is gutter trash. So saying that Lucario is comparable to Marth doesn't do much for Lucario's image IMO.

 

[Browny]

lol, you saying sonic isnt evasive? it doesnt make top tier, high tiers dedede, snake, falco and rob arent evasive at all, but landing a KO move on someone very fast isnt easy. sonic lives a long time when he cant ke KO'd off the stage when spring gives invincibility frames. only reason sonic ever dies is because he has to be right up in the enemies face to do damage while lucario can keep his range from everyone.


and EL its hard not to notice similarities

they both can double f-air in a short hop
their aerials are very similar in effect, like fair, u-air and nair. all high priority combo/KO moves
utilt looks similar and they both have long range fsmash's with tipper effects

and who in thier right minds thinks marth is trash? if by trash they mean, cant beat snake, well then i guess hes trash, but so is every other character in the game :/

 

[Corigames]

I completely shut-down Sonic with Pit. Arrows, seem, to stop nearly every move he does. Then, shield grabbing when they come in close.

Not tough at all.

 

[Kiwikomix]

"evasive doesn't make top tier"
Yeah, thanks. That's... kind of what I was saying.
I don't really want to start a Sonic discussion, but I will say that usually if he isn't KOed off the side, he's coming back from off the edge. Lucario doesn't have this advantage because he is actually able to be gimped. And I'm not saying why he can be gimped again, look back at some of the posts on the last page.
Did I forget to mention that even if Lucario's winning, his multipliers are lessened a bit? Sure, they're increased if he's losing, but that just goes back on the whole "he has to be losing to win" thing. Lucario can't get that high because his true power doesn't kick in until his opponent already has the advantage.
Ugh, this argument is just going in circles... Lucario isn't high tier, he's upper mid.

 

[St. Viers]

[to be editted later, if this is ANYwhere near relevent]

tl;dr version, please let's not start anything stupid, like comparing lucario to marth. seriouly, if you try and emulate marth w/ lucario you'll fail. He has a projectile for a reason. Also, luigi can double aerial in a short hop, as can other chars...and mario can combo, does that mean mario is like marth....NO.

seriously, trying to say x is like y is STUPID, instead just take the time to say:

x has qualities a,b,c, and d, and although character y has these, they are different to char x because of l,m,n, and o.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Seeing as no two characters really play the same and they all have extremely different matchups, no, that's not really viable, especially this early in the metagame when we don't have much to go by.

Captain Falcon and Sonic both play similarly in that their game rey on punishing since they cannot take an opponent head on.

or you can compare the gimping abilities of MK and Sonic. Both of which rely on gimping as a method of getting early kills. Yet one can do it better than the other.

This isn't to say that you can necessarily compare every part of a characters gameplay to another. However you can compare parts of it. Such as Marth's weight in comparison to Lucarios.
or Snake's camping ability to Olimar's camping ability.
Picking out specifics not something holistic.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I just get this gut feeling that Lucario mainers compare Lucario to Marth because he has Marth's old combos and because Lucario has similar range to Marth.

So they immediately compare him to Marth. Which I find annoying because although they have some traits that are similar they are completely different beasts.

Maybe they think that comparing him to Marth will put Lucario in a better light. Which is silly to do since the community as a whole does not hold Marth in high regard.

For example, pretty much the entire Tri-state area of PA/NJ/NY thinks that Marth is gutter trash. So saying that Lucario is comparable to Marth doesn't do much for Lucario's image IMO.

I have always wondered exactly why certain regions can have such varying views on each characters. >_>