Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Corigames]

All I have been saying in this thread is that the only way to get a good, sound list is to have a national competition with the best names for all the characters and review THOSE videos to see who is the best.

Otherwise you just have people making lists based off local talent and youtube videos of games of other crappy people. (In general)

 

[flyingpork002]

yeah i agree but i was hoping (no offense) that some sbr members or something might be able to help me plus get this thread back on track. But dont be offended, i value everyones opinion, i just like it when people back them up with details. (lol i sound like an english teacher telling you to write an essay.)

 

[MattC13]

Well... am I suppose to wait until someone drops thier e-balls before I correct them, even if it is way abrasive?

No, you are responsible for every post, just like I am. If I call you out, even on your first post, you better be willing to back yourself up. No one needs to hold anyone's hands while they are here. This isn't day care. I assume we are all grown up here.

Wait... you said, "someone like Coreygames." That's insinuating that there is anybody like me. Pffft. Yeah right.

Sorry if I offended you, but I didn't see the post before mine.

And yeah, this isn't a daycare. But what you said what that the first post would judge that person for the rest of there time here. And yes, we are all responsable for every single post, and we should be able to defend ourselfs in a sudden flame war.

If you want to continue this, then PM me. Someone posts here every 5 seconds, so It's kinda hard to see other posts.

 

[flyingpork002]

hey people lets try to keep the discussion going about BRAWL TIERS i'm all for peace and love and all that but maybe save it for another time

 

[MattC13]

hey people lets try to keep the discussion going about BRAWL TIERS i'm all for peace and love and all that but maybe save it for another time

That's what I was saying. D:

Anyways, since IDK much about Tiers, I'll try to stay out of this topic.

 

[Corigames]

Never worry about offending me. Even if someone did, they would get a lovely, well-formatted post full of hate and insults that would fully capture my feelings for them. If you feel I did not do this to you, then you did not offend me.

Yeah, there's no more reason for this. I just want more new people to be understanding that they shouldn't have as much knoledge as experienced players and that because they play with their freinds or even, possibly, went to one tournament, that doesn't mean they have the ability to speak on the same level as someone who has been to several. I don't expect any, ANY, new guy to possess that knowledge, but when they act like they do, that's when I "lash out" at them.

By the way, nice sig...

 

[stoopdklutz]

...so about those tiers....
*awkward pause*

....Ganon. still deserve to be bottom? I think he's a character that absolutely has to make every hit count, seeing as he as almost NO combos, cept maybe tech-chasing Side-B...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I shouldn't have said some of those things. I apologize. Olimar doesn't really have that many recovery options if he loses his double jump. EL is making it seem like he can press the double jump button for his opponent. It's not hard to avoid the pressure to dj. In fact Olimar does better on the ground than in the air anyway, soo... why should he jump twice? If Olimar has his second double jump after getting hit hard and he doesn't get blown off the screen, he has several options. I'll name a few:

-fall towards stage jump>whistle armor>nair.
-fair or upair or tether to stage. If he edgehogs, jump and/or pressure him off with upair>tether.
-throw pikmen>fall towards stage>fair>whistle armour to safety.

I'm not going to name anymore(unless you want me to) b/c there's too many options he has to get back it's not even funny. Unless you have a great edgeguarding game, you're not just going to "get a free kill by gimping" if you hit him off unless he has already used his double jump. If you do have a great edge game, then you should kill most recovery attempts anyways. It's just totally ridiculous what some of you are saying. He's quite misunderstood.

I understand, but the point is over certain percents, you'll need to dj to get in to range to tether if you get a strong hit. Granted, I overstated a bit earlier, but if you're required to use the double jump to get into tether range... not a lot of options.


Also, there's the fact that needing his double jump to recovery means that he can't really use SJR and ISJR which is going to be very important in the tournament environment as people learn to get the technique at will (at least IMO).

Both of which are rather significant disadvantages.

Chozen is the one I'm specifically pointing out by saying the last part of that comment. Too many people are putting him in mid tier below characters like Zelda, DK, Lucas, and even Mario-What the heck???

You might wish to reconsider your opinions on certain of the characters on the list, most notably Zelda, Din's fire spamming is on the way back (after people figured out ways to counter it, Zelda players have been finding more and more effective counters to those counters), and that's far from her only trick.

Zelda is a high tier at least.

...so about those tiers....
*awkward pause*

....Ganon. still deserve to be bottom? I think he's a character that absolutely has to make every hit count, seeing as he as almost NO combos, cept maybe tech-chasing Side-B...

Don't think it's a true combo, but thunderstorm to up-smash. Or double (even triple) thunderstorm.

Come to think of it, most of ganondorf's combos involve the dair.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I think DK is great but I don't see why people are saying he does well against Snake.

Snake can camp him pretty well which is a big problem and all of Snake's other broken moves like F-tilt are a problem. I really don't see many advantages DK has against Snake, either.

I didn't get many responses, so can somone anwser this?

 

[Malch]

Uhh... no. Way to make assumptions you worthless n00b.

What are you going to say next, that everyone has an equal opprotunity in Brawl. That ATs boggle the game down with complexity. That pros are only good because of glitches. Is Brawl better because it's more fun?

The tier list is there to inform people who is best in the current meta. It doesn't force you to do ****. If you have a problem with it, don't bother with it. If you are a scrub, you will let the tier list dictate your every move.

This was your first post and you failed it sooooo hard. What a waste.

Way to flame a newbie. And given how many people actually read the fine print that says 'meta', tiers affect even low-level play more than they should.

 

[stoopdklutz]

I dunno, maybe because he has great range and power together, not to mention a unique grab game?

 

[flyingpork002]

lol it seems like all of the experienced players other than coreygames (chozen, el, ???, kaizo, St. Viers) all left. That sucks because now its a bunch of noobs running the most important thread. And i wasn't insulting you guys i refered to myself as a noob too. But maybe if we get back on topic they will come back and we can have a nice discussion.

 

[stoopdklutz]

I've been try to help decide the mid-low tiers, since all people care about so far is wether Snake or Mk is top. Cmon, we need to flesh out the tier list.

 

[flyingpork002]

i think that dk is considered a counter because his ftilt has great range so that can counter snakes ftilt and dk is heavier and harder to ko for snake players and dk's punch outprioritizes snakes missiles and grendades.

 

[Corigames]

There is really no point though. It's been basically decided that Snake and Meta are at the top of the tier list. Then from there you usually throw Pit, Wario, G&W, etc. Then below that is everyone else. The rest just doesn't matter. And until someone can throw out Snake and Meta from the top, there isn't a need to change anything. The discussion right now doesn't matter until something big happens.

 

[Onxy]

What do you people mean by 'casual play'? People who occasionally play the game for a few rounds then play sometime next week? Or playing it often, but not entering tournaments. Because tiers will affect casual play I think.

 

[stoopdklutz]

That's what I've been trying to say: We shouldn't debate on the top 2, we should debate on the rerst of the cast. Just because they're high tier doesn't mean EVERYONE plays them, and by that assumption, people care about other characters too.

 

[Onxy]

That's what I've been trying to say: We shouldn't debate on the top 2, we should debate on the rerst of the cast. Just because they're high tier doesn't mean EVERYONE plays them, and by that assumption, people care about other characters too.

I would like to believe that. But it's usually the precieved weak characters, or females, that are underplayed - hey it's true, the tourny results speaks for its self.

 

[stoopdklutz]

And that results from casual players who thought Jiggs was utter bullcrap in melee, ehh?

 

[isomorphism]

DK's Down-B actually helps a lot against Snake's ground game, it has possibly the highest priority in the game and such large range that it almost acts like a projectile (can detonate Snake's mines, etc. safely) and is good for punishing slow attacks. His tilts have similar, if not slightly greater, range than Snake's, and are very poweful; DK can juggle him with his U-tilt. DK's also one of the best at spiking of the entire cast, and Snake's recovery is very open to spikes. It's arguable that DK does not have an advantage over Snake, but I would say the fight is neutral at worst for DK. There's a thread in the DK forums right now discussing the matchup, and much better players than I are contributing to it.

 

[Onxy]

Jiggs was seen as weak from casuals? News to me.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Well, that's what all my friends thought before I found this site, and they still think she sucks in melee...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Jiggs was seen as weak from casuals? News to me.

Well she was.

She was too technical for casuals to play effectively and rest was utterly useless. She needs a level of precision, even in things like jumping that casuals were not interested in developing.


Unless you have a certain level of competence beyond what a casual will have, jigglypuff is crap.

Of course, once you're beyond that point there was a lot of interesting things you could do with jiggs, so she wasn't REALLY crap, but still, a casual would be better with Sheik or Marth.


Oh, and Fox definitely was the bottom of the barrel for casuals.

 

[Corigames]

Give me jigglypuff witha screw attack and I'll show you why jiggly is no fun to play against casually

 

[isomorphism]

There are enough casual players who think Link is excellent and Ike is one of the best characters in the game that I don't think the general opinion should be used as a guide, Azen notwithstanding.

 

[metalmonstar]

Ike is top tier...on wifi.

I think on wifi it goes like

Ike
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Falco
Pit
Metaknight
Toon Link
Bowser
Snake
Lucario


Something along those lines.

Tier list don't effect casual players that much. Just look at snake on the casual level he isn't that great. His smashes come out too slow and get abused and most casual players don't realize the brokeness of his tilts. I know a couple of casuals Snakes. They spam Nikki uses the occasional gernade and try to trick someone into an fsmash. It may just be me but I never see pro snakes use these kind of tactics.

 

[stoopdklutz]

My Tier list...

To get back on track...

top tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
G&W( Yes yes I know he's in Top, not top of high...)

High Tier
Marth
Falco
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Wario
Pika.....CHUUUUUU
Donkey Kong
Wolf

Mid Tier
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Pit
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Luigi
Shiek
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Ness

Low Tier
Peach
Bowser
Samus
Link
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff
Mario
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

It's kind of off the top of my head...

Discuss please.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ike is top tier...on wifi.

I think on wifi it goes like

Ike
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Falco
Pit
Metaknight
Toon Link
Bowser
Snake
Lucario


Something along those lines.

Tier list don't effect casual players that much. Just look at snake on the casual level he isn't that great. His smashes come out too slow and get abused and most casual players don't realize the brokeness of his tilts. I know a couple of casuals Snakes. They spam Nikki uses the occasional gernade and try to trick someone into an fsmash. It may just be me but I never see pro snakes use these kind of tactics.

Nah, it's just that their list is different from ours. For us, snake is awesome, for them he's rather poor. Metaknight is universally awesome, for them, Ike is awesome for us Ike is mid.

It's a totally different tier list because the ATs and to a lesser extent, tilts, are almost completely unused by casuals. So, the "basic character tier list" affects them a lot, not what characters are at the tip of the current metagame.

 

[Corigames]

Yup... that's a list.

I like how there are a bunch of names under different categories, that's nice.

"It's kind of off the top of my head..."
No johns

It's a list, not much to say.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Thanks for the feedback man, I can't believe I didn't see the obvious XD.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W is bestest on weifififi

 

[flyingpork002]

you forgot diddy kong on your list. Put him near the top of mid

 

[stoopdklutz]

thanks.

200char.

 

[TehBo49]

Tier list

Luigi & Olimar need to move up a little. Otherwise, that's a good list.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Kirby and Lucario switch places, and make Ike low tier. I'm sure there's more, but that's just what I noticed at first.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Ayye.....my list isn't a FAIL.

Huzzah.

 

[Kaizo]

Ike is top tier...on wifi.

I think on wifi it goes like

Ike
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Falco
Pit
Metaknight
Toon Link
Bowser
Snake
Lucario


Something along those lines.

Tier list don't effect casual players that much. Just look at snake on the casual level he isn't that great. His smashes come out too slow and get abused and most casual players don't realize the brokeness of his tilts. I know a couple of casuals Snakes. They spam Nikki uses the occasional gernade and try to trick someone into an fsmash. It may just be me but I never see pro snakes use these kind of tactics.

I'm pretty sure MK's tornado is top tier on wifi. MK w/o tornado is actually really meh on wifi. Also, I know a casual Snake player that abuses tilts a lot...lol...I mean he plays with competitive people, so he kind of just learns stuff, but he's probably the best casual Snake player out there =3

 

[MattC13]

After some stern disscussion on tiers, I've realized thy're not all BS.

Personally, I don't think Falco should be a top, I've found him worse then Fox and Wolf on many occasions, mainly for the fact that most people are trying to attack with the reflector kick, they forgot about the other qualities. Still, he should be at least in high, because of all the times I've used him I'd won.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@Matt: Falco is either high or very high. Definitely not top though, and definitely better than the two other space animals.

 

[MattC13]

@Matt: Falco is either high or very high. Definitely not top though, and definitely better than the two other space animals.

Shockingly, I've found that Fox is better then Falco in many categories. Well, my categories:

Speed
Strengh
Damage (Not sure on this one)

With Wolf is that I have trouble launching a powerful attack, and I tend to screw up the B> or <B and all off the stage.