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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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sweener

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
15
See a lot of these charcters sounded good in practice, such as maybe Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, and Pikimin.

They were trying to experiment and get away from the old so that people would not get bored with the same stuff. But as it appears they do not work as well.
((i would not call either of the three bottom))
 

Kiwikomix

Smash Ace
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Messages
927
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Ames, IA
Uh, Pikman works just fine. PT is below average. Lucario is average.
If they were experimenting, it seems kind of hit and miss on Sakurai's part.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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NSS: Part of it, is the fact that my region has no idea what a good Marth looks like. I went to a tourney in PA last week and some NY smashers saw my Marth and their jaws hit the floor.

They had no idea Marth could move the way I moved with him or could zone as well I was zoning with him or pressure as well as I was pressuring with him.

They just don't know what he can do. And it doesn't help that M2K says outlandish things like Marth sucks.

Clearly Marth doesn't suck, but when a character isn't being used then people just assume that character must be bad.
 

Sudsy86_

Smash Ace
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594
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Upstate, NY
After adding three really good Marth players to my friend list, the only bad thing about Marth I could say is that he is not very quick to move/recover after completing an attack, even if you c-stick. He has a fairly long sword, is very quick with it, and can kill very easily around 80-90; therefore, he can't possibly be bad.

Besides, I don't take M2K or most others' opinion too seriously on judging characters, regardless of how consistently high they might place. From what I've seen, M2K's mind games are nothing out of the ordinary.
 

Emblem Lord

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Well, I said to a friend earliar tonight that Marth doesn't have spammable smash attacks.

When you go for a kill with Marth, you better make sure it's going to kill because of they block you are in for some pain. That's his main flaw IMO and it's enough to keep him from being in the top 3 from what I have seen.
 

The Real Inferno

Smash Hero
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I'm pretty sure Sonic can just dodge those arrows all day and force Pit to approach anyway. If Sonic chooses to approaches I'd expect he could probably sweep in with a grab between arrows.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Tri-state area
Lucario's range is actually very good. One of the best in the game. He is also a slightly heavy character, not light. I don't know if I'd call him high tier though. Definitely high mid.
He didn't suggest lucario was light, merely that Lucario was "light enough".

Well... yeah. Not compared to the tethers and Link. But his upB is among the most useless for recovery, you have to admit. And what if you're fighting on a stage without a wall, like Smashville or Lylat Cruise? Nothing to cling there...
Definition of a stage which disadvantages a character.

I've had over 300 matches against Zelda. I'm not going to say she's high tier with my experience at least. I've found ways to break her down. I'm not sure what "effective counters" you're thinking of. I haven't seen much. and you're right Din's isn't that great at all.
I guess you've been lucky with your Zelda opponents then.

Granted, every character has their weaknesses, but Zelda has more then enough tools to be an incredible defensive character. In a way, I'm really glad that people learned how to deal with her entry level tricks, because that's forcing her metagame to evolve to a great deal. I doubt that you'll find Zelda players so vulnerable as time goes on, but the majority of them are just getting over the shock of "hyphened smash doesn't kill everyone anymore" yet.


Oh, and I actually disagreed with you, Din's fire is an awesome projectile, but proper utilization needed the shock of "I have to work for my Din's fire hits". There are ways to outlast spotdodges and airdodges (for example, zigzagging). The important thing is proper timing and recognition of Din's Fire's godly hitbox. As my brother has been discovering more and more recently, spot-dodging when it gets near just doesn't cut it. That's one of those counters to the counters. With a little creativity, the Zelda community is finding out how to make a powerful projectile actually usable in the competitive environment.


For example, pretty much the entire Tri-state area of PA/NJ/NY thinks that Marth is gutter trash. So saying that Lucario is comparable to Marth doesn't do much for Lucario's image IMO.
"Pretty much", good no over generalizations. Regardless, this means I have a lot of work to do, it is my duty as a Marth main to convince my local community that he's not gutter trash, and that he's actually the top of the second highest tier.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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marth has no dignity

on topic: don't factor in the matchup chart, thats skewed on so many levels it isnt even funny, wait until they straighten it out a bit

as for tier positions, dk seems to be placed pretty low seeing as he is ranked 8th in the character rankings, why is this?
 

The Real Inferno

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Oh, and I actually disagreed with you, Din's fire is an awesome projectile, but proper utilization needed the shock of "I have to work for my Din's fire hits". There are ways to outlast spotdodges and airdodges (for example, zigzagging). The important thing is proper timing and recognition of Din's Fire's godly hitbox. As my brother has been discovering more and more recently, spot-dodging when it gets near just doesn't cut it. That's one of those counters to the counters. With a little creativity, the Zelda community is finding out how to make a powerful projectile actually usable in the competitive environment.
Indeed, there's actually a large hit box arund Dins Fire that spreads with its charge more than the actual flame itself does. This can lead to a player dodging it only to have it sail right by them and explode seemingly out of range, though the extra hit box on a fully charge will hit them anyway despite appearing to miss entirely.
 

The Real Inferno

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marth has no dignity

on topic: don't factor in the matchup chart, thats skewed on so many levels it isnt even funny, wait until they straighten it out a bit

as for tier positions, dk seems to be placed pretty low seeing as he is ranked 8th in the character rankings, why is this?
The general reasoning is that DK does so well at tournaments right now because he is a counter action to many of the overused and popular tourney chars right now sch as Snake and Metaknight. General concessus seems to be that he isnt as well matched for much less popular characters though but they tend to not appear as much in tournaments.
 

Kaizo

Smash Apprentice
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May 28, 2008
Messages
140
The general reasoning is that DK does so well at tournaments right now because he is a counter action to many of the overused and popular tourney chars right now sch as Snake and Metaknight. General concessus seems to be that he isnt as well matched for much less popular characters though but they tend to not appear as much in tournaments.
**** general consensus, because people are ********. A major part of the reason DK is so good is because of his massive spatial control. Sure, he's a big target, but being big also means his aerial control is absurd, and when coupled with the fact that all his attacks have good range, it means you're going to have a difficult time dodging his attacks. Not to mention his ftilt has one of the longest ranges in the game, his fsmash and usmash have ludicrous range (his fsmash probably has the same range as Wolf's), his fastest aerials are two of his main killing moves (bair and uair), his PUUUNCH! has invincibility frames during the PUUUNCH!, his downB is surprisingly useful (just one or two slaps, not much lag, hardly punishable), his bthrow kills at mid 100%'s, and he's difficult to gimp (if you aren't Kirby, who would still have at least a little difficulty gimping him.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
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Mar 21, 2008
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Hopewell, NJ
I'm gonna make a tier list for olimar's pikmin!

Top
Yellow Pikmin

High
Red Pikmin

Middle
White Pikman

Low
Blue Pikmin

Bottom
Purple Pikmin
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
5,817
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Tempe, AZ
You are joking right.
Arrows don't shut down anything.
Seriously who are you playing that lets themselves get shutdown by arrow looping and shieldgrabbing as Sonic?
IDK, how about HIS MOVES? His forward B gets stopped by arros. Hss down smash and up smash get stopped by arrows. His neutral B gets stopped by arrows, even when moving! His dash attack, pretty much all his aerials, and especially his taunt! It may not damage him in all cases, but it will stop the attack and his movement. This way I can keep him in constant attack lock down and at a fair distance. Then, when does come in close, I either run away or shield grab. The End.

I mean, it doesn't ALWAYS go acording straight to the plan. Sometimes I do get hit or miss his attack due to my own inabilities, but that's generally how every game goes and I have yet to lose to one.

Arrows shut down a lot, even more than most people think.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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Messages
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@underdogs22-I don't agree with your list at all. It's all wrong. :confused: This is what it should look like:

Top-
Blue-great grab range, damage and knockback on this dude's throws. Easier to latch b/c of the trajectory of his throw. blue backthrow is a main killing option. Best overall pikmin.
Red-a tricky pikmin, he's very underestimated by many. He has great aerial priority with lots of racking ability. His upair does a nasty 24 damage!, and his smashes have great range.

High-
Yellow-This pikmin is very average on damage, knockback, and priority, thus deserving him an average rank in the tiers.
Purple-A heavy pikmin with low range when thrown. he has the best knockback on his smashes and grabs, but his average range on those attacks bring him lower in the tiers.
White- A small, frail pikmin that's great for throwing, but nothing else. Their mediocre knockback and priority bring him to the bottom of the mid tier.

There's only two tiers b/c they can all compete with each other. Great pikmin though.;)
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
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RI
I'm gonna make a tier list for olimar's pikmin!

Top
Yellow Pikmin

High
Red Pikmin

Middle
White Pikman

Low
Blue Pikmin

Bottom
Purple Pikmin
Uhhh... no. Unless you only play against Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, and Zelda players for some reason, and do nothing other than side b.

Blue are the most versatile: best throws, above average attack damage and durability. Yellow and red are very useful against specific matchups because of their elemental properties. Purple have the shortest range but high damage. And white are really only good for latching and grab attacking (not throws, but mashing A while in a grab)
 

Browny

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Video Games
lol

sonics side b goes through arrows
his down b goes under arrows.

the lag after firing one arrow is enough for sonic to spin dash across any stage and hit pit

if theres one character in the game who pits arrows have the least effect on, its sonic. sure snake can crawl, but you can get like 8 arrows off in the time it takes snake to chase pit across a stage, you cant even get 2 against sonic.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
IDK, how about HIS MOVES? His forward B gets stopped by arrows.
*Cracks fingers okay letrs do this then ^_^
His down smash and up smash get stopped by arrows.
Care to explain whya Sonic would be using his Dsmash or U smash from far away?
maybe via arrow looping but even then a Sonic user would have to be an idiot to be caught by it repeatedly.

His forward b does NOT get stopped by arrows PERIOD.
During the initial hop it has very high priority and goes through them. Go test it yourself.
After when he touches the ground he gets the priority of a down B which also goes THROUGH the arrows.
If Pit's arrows do got through its because Sonic's attack aura has diminished, but holding forward brings it back.
His neutral B gets stopped by arrows,
Correct.
But why would a sonic be using his neutral B from afar where the arrows can get at hi?
even when moving!
WOMG REALLY?
I never knew a character that was walking or dashign could be hurt NO WAI!
His dash attack, pretty much all his aerials,
This shows how ignorant you are of Sonic.
Fair and Nair go through arrows.
Dash attack goes under the arrows so you're going to have to direct them and the way the dash attack moves you'll be leaving yourself open.
and especially his taunt!
NO WAI!
It may not damage him in all cases, but it will stop the attack and his movement.
no it won't.
Usmash goes throughn it while he is a ball and even if it does stop him he can imediately attack afterwards.
This way I can keep him in constant attack lock down and at a fair distance. Then, when does come in close, I either run away or shield grab. The End.
*facepalm*
See sometimes you sound incredibly smart and other times so ****ing ********.

FOr one Sonic's dash shield grab outranges your own by a good amount.
NOt only that you're not going to be running away from Sonic.
Sonic is one of the best characters at getting up close, if you're tihnking Pit is going to keep him away all day with only his arrows you haveto be joking.

ASC
Spinshot
SJC
DAC
Dash Shield grab
Dash canceling.

Sonic is getting up close, your arrows really don't mean too much to him.


I mean, it doesn't ALWAYS go acording straight to the plan. Sometimes I do get hit or miss his attack due to my own inabilities, but that's generally how every game goes and I have yet to lose to one.

Arrows shut down a lot, even more than most people think.
\They may shut down alot for an idiot sonic but its a fact that projectile users will not be able to projectile spam against sonic.
For one his speed, if you fire an arrow you better direct it towards where he will e which is incredibly difficult considering how fast he can move.
If you fire at him in an attempt to stop his spindash its going to fail since the spindash goes rightt through it.
You cancel his attack thats basically it you're canceling, you won't be able to follow up with anythig except another arrow if you're too far away and it won't do anything to stop Sonic.

tl;dr: You're plan fails against a Sonic who knows what they are doing.
I've faced my friends Pit he can arrow loop, arrow rain, he can do it all and quite well.
however he knows that arrow spamming won't work,he won't be able to lock Sonic out in such a manner.
The side B goes through the arrows and down B goes under them. both of which are incredibly fast and very hard to cut of with an arrow while they are moving.
Nair and Fair go through arrows and even thena good Sonic won't be approaching from far away.


Now after this response i say this...

Nice trolling ^_^
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
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But MK doesnt have a great deal of players compared to some other characters, but I guess it's the tourney results that should do the talking.

I use Mk and im pretty bad but that doesnt really matter, like you said, its tha tourneys that matter more than tha amount of peepl who use him. (I just added him to my mains in my signature b/c I've started focusing on using him more than any1 els lately ).
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
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I just get this gut feeling that Lucario mainers compare Lucario to Marth because he has Marth's old combos and because Lucario has similar range to Marth.

So they immediately compare him to Marth. Which I find annoying because although they have some traits that are similar they are completely different beasts.

Maybe they think that comparing him to Marth will put Lucario in a better light. Which is silly to do since the community as a whole does not hold Marth in high regard.
I do not see ho people can compare these two. does marth have a projectile?? I dont think so! (I use marth so Im not sayin this is bad). Also, with marths sword, you have to hit the sweet spot with the attacks to get the most power.

The only main things I see that are similar about them are the ranges are similar and they both have a countering move with downb.

This isn't really relevant, but it is funny, that guy with the stephen colbert picture in his name tag puts words i your mouth and plagerizes everything you say in akmost all of his posts. most of them start with "emblem lord says" or something like that. he is a real suck up to you. its funny. the guy with the fish in his nametag hates him, it fun to see them going at it.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Messages
6,860
Please don't double post. you can multiquote by pressing the "multiquote" option next to "quote" and then quoting another post regularly.
-thanks
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
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Sorry dude...

and im in this other thread about other people who should be in brawl and this guy keeps quadruple posting. he obviously doesn't know how edit his posts
 

Pieisthebest

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
164
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Connecticut
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Coment on my tier list :u

Top:
Snake
MK
G&W
Wario

High:
D3
ROB
Falco
Marth
Pikachu
Wolf
TL
IC

Upper-Mid:
Olimar
Zelda
Pit
DK
Luigi
Fox
ZSS
Diddy
Kirby
Mario
Jiggs
Lucario

Lower-Mid:
Ness
Lucas
Peach
Sheik
PT
Bowser
Sonic
Yoshi

Low:
Ganon
Ike

Bottom:
Link
CF
Samus
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
not too off, but ike's too low(he's much better than that) wario's a bit too high, jiggs is too high, lucario is too low(he's been doing better in tourneys), Sheik is not below peach(sorry, just no-no)

besides those, I can understand your reasoning.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Top:
Snake-OK
MK-OK
G&W-OK
Wario- Little too high I think.

High:
D3-OK
ROB-OK
Falco-OK
Marth-OK
Pikachu-OK
Wolf-Too high. He has problems KOing. Fsmash doesn't KO if you use it to deal damage. Dsmash is his only other good option. His aerials are good but not great. Once you learn to deal with laser spam he doesn't have that much going for him.
TL- Ok.
IC-Ok.

Upper-Mid:
Olimar- Too high I think. We've discussed his recovery extensively and yes it is a problem. Not enough to make him low tier but lower than this.
Zelda- Zelda should be a few spots higher. She's about as hard to approach as Olimar and she has a better projectile and great KO moves.
Pit- Maybe a little lower.
DK- Higher. He's a great match for a lot of the higher tiers which is a big plus.
Luigi-Lower. Just a few spots. Below ZSS, Diddy, and Fox and Maybe Kirby.
Fox-OK
ZSS-OK
Diddy-Ok
Kirby-OK
Mario-Ok
Jiggs- Nope. Unfortunately jigglypuff isn't as good. Rest isn't even really worth the risk anymore. The ability to airdoge multiple times makes WOP less impressive. Still very light.
Lucario-Ok

Lower-Mid:
Ness- Should be underneath Lucas do to infinites.
Lucas- Ok
Peach- Ok
Sheik- Ok
PT- Ok
Bowser- Ok
Sonic- Ok
Yoshi- Ok

Low:
Ganon- Ok.
Ike- Ok

Bottom:
Link- Ok
CF- Ok
Samus- Ok
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,432
Location
NY
I think Squirtle can do it to. And Marth is pretty common in tournaments so its definitely enough to put Lucas (who can break out) avove Ness, who can't.
 

Sh1n0b1

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 8, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
Pieisthebest tier list
Wario is definitely a monster, but he is too high on your tier list. His lack of a projectile hurts him. If anyone is fourth best it is either Marth, Falco, or R.O.B. Olimar should be a little lower because of his awful recovery. Zelda maybe higher. I say Diddy should go a little higher too
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
I think Squirtle can do it to. And Marth is pretty common in tournaments so its definitely enough to put Lucas (who can break out) avove Ness, who can't.


Squirtle can't to my knowledge.
Yes it cna place lucas above Ness but not enough to knock Ness down to low tier when its only 2 characters (3 at most) that can perform the infinite.
 

Vex514

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
58
Location
New Jersey
Alright, just for fun perhaps, I'm going to express my own tier list. I have some controversial spots that I've commented on my reasoning for. And please, don't disregard this because of my post count, I do have a good amount of competitive experience from tournaments and playing Yehs! multiple times and Inui being friends of both. Not saying my opinions reflect theirs or that I am an expert on this, but I am far from an uninformed fanboy of certain characters giving placings due to popularity. Also, I don't like saying bottom tier and low tier so i combine the two. Two tiers with such few characters just seems pointless to me.



Top:
Snake
MK
Marth
G&W
Rob

High:
Pikachu-Projectile is better imo, has better combos and set ups for more damgage.
Toon Link
Fox-Very quick damager with little to no problems killing with his bair, dsmash, fsmash. shine stall, Dash Shine. I just find that fox has a lot of unused potential to be incredibly deadly if used properly.
Wolf-it may be true he has downsides but what i see in wolf is that he has excellent control. With his shine-counter and quick attacks he can control a match which i find more important then killing early on because if your in control, you'll get the kill eventually without taking to much damage yoursef.
Falco-Probably one of my more controversial choices but I keep playing falco trying to see what the deals about. He has poor killing potential and a horrible recovery that i see and relies to heavily on spam. Yes he can infinite but stay away from walls and learn to tech your landings and he can't infinite. Perhaps the 40% chain grab could be helpful but when it comes down to it, falco needs a lot more then 40% to kill where as other better characters don't.
Olimar-Yes, he has a horrible recovery we've realized this but that doesn't take away his reliability. He's a great menace and should rely on mind games to win a match. If your not paying attention close enough, he can quickly turn a match against you.

Upper-Mid:
IC
DeDeDe-I've moved DeDeDe down for the fact that many characters, especially the high and top tier characters, decimate him. All of the above can take complete control over a DeDeDe and just hit him like a big wall.
Pit
Ike-Probably my most controbersial placements and I'd like to put him higher. B-sticking with him is excellent as is fast falling his arials to cancel lag and jump into **** and ftilts. His super armor proves very useful and he can kill at incredibly low percentages. Although juggable, his low kill % allows him to stay even in a seemingly (damage wise) lopsided matchup. Against smart players they can dominate him but if your the smarter player, Ike is a top choice in my books.
Zelda
Lucario-He's getting more tourny play and frankly I have great experience using him. He does have killing problems at low damage but if your a smart enough player you can outwit your opponent and avoid their killing moves. Once he hits 100% lucario becomes a machine as long as you don't stumble into something stupid.
Wario
DK
Luigi
ZSS
Diddy
Kirby
Sheik-yes, we all hate sheik now don't we. She still damages very well. Yes there is killing problems but she is still up there in racking it up.
Jiggs

Lower-Mid:
Sonic-Im putting sonic here for potential. I find him very easy to play and i love his style and the mind games he uses. He has a lot of potential to me and i predict will begin show it when he gets more tournament play.
Link-Link i believe got better in this game but is just outshined by his toon version. He isn't one of the worsts. far from it imo.
Mario
Lucas
Ness
Peach
PT-in general Although i'd place squirtle upper-mid above DeDeDe, Ivysaur and Charizard ruin him as a whole for an upper-mid spot.
Bowser
Yoshi

Low:
Samus
CF
Ganondorf
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,115
Location
Chicago, IL
Coment on my tier list :u

Top:
Snake
MK
G&W
Wario

High:
D3
ROB
Falco
Marth
Pikachu
Wolf
TL
IC

Upper-Mid:
Olimar
Zelda
Pit
DK
Luigi
Fox
ZSS
Diddy
Kirby
Mario
Jiggs
Lucario

Lower-Mid:
Ness
Lucas
Peach
Sheik
PT
Bowser
Sonic
Yoshi

Low:
Ganon
Ike

Bottom:
Link
CF
Samus


Move Ike up, samus isn't that bad, and your list fails b/c it has 2 people under cf, no list should have anyon under him. marth should be top of high tier, MK top of top, move wolf down.



To Vex514: Where is zss, she and samus are totally different.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
what AiB has for a tier list

Top
Snake
Wario
MK

High
Gdubs
D3
Falco
DK
ROB
Marth
TL
Wolf
IC
Fox

Mid
Olimar
Pikachu
Ness
Luigi
Diddy
Peach
Lucas
ZSS
Kirby
Mario
Zelda
Pit

Low
Bowser
Lucario
Sheik
Ganon
Ike
Jiggs
PT
Yoshi
Link

Bottom
Sonic
Samus
CF
 

TehBo49

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
589
Location
In an alternate universe, where Brawl does not suc
Top:
Snake
MK
Marth
G&W
Rob

High:
Pikachu
Toon Link
Fox He definitely needs to move down. He has potential, but he gets comboed & juggled by a lot of characters. His projectile is also sub par.
Wolf Gets juggled a lot like Fox & has worse recovery. He's still overall better though. Move him down a little.
Falco He has more than the chaingrab. Lasers shut down a lot of characters. Move him up.
Olimar

Upper-Mid:
IC
DeDeDe He should at least be bottom of high.
Pit
Ike Too slow & predictable to be this high. Bottom of mid at best.
Zelda Could probably move up a little.
Lucario
Wario
DK
Luigi
ZSS
Diddy
Kirby Move up slightly.
Sheik
Jiggs She needs to go down. At best, top of low.

Lower-Mid:
Sonic
Link He actually got worse in this game. Move down to low.
Mario
Lucas He could probably move up a little.
Ness
Peach
PT
Bowser
Yoshi

Low:
Samus
CF He's definitely not better than Ganondorf. Move under him.
Ganondorf
Comments in red.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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Location
ventura county CA
before the flame wars begin, this is what they got after 80 pages of posts, refrain from personal attacks because it was the site consensus after a long session between most of the tier debaters on the site
 
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