Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[goodkid]

Peach is decent this time around, all of her moves were buffed except Down-B.

 

[_OraNoS_]

Does any know when MLG and EVO will start up brawl tournies? Beacusewhen those happen tier lists will start to come out

Corner-Trap already covered the EVO answer perfectly, but even though it's not likely MLG will host any Brawl tourneys this year, they would wait until smashboards(primarily the backroom) created a widely supported base ruleset. I believe their melee rules were exactly what the rules for FC were in the past(with maybe a few minor tweaks?) and if they didn't have a proven ruleset to begin with they wouldn't waste their time, although they obviously have noted how popular their online ladder for brawl is over at gamebattles. (so.... MLG hosting Brawl tourneys in the future looks rather likely)

 

[mitch2302]

STOP PUTTING DONKEY KONG AT LOW TIER. HES REALLY GOOD.


that is all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach is decent this time around, all of her moves were buffed except Down-B.

No, she sucks. Most of her moveset was nerfed pretty noticeably.

She was one of the more combo oriented characters in Melee, but that's gone since she can't chaingrab, and her D-air launches people too far away for that anymore. Her Dash attack has become more unreliable at high percents. She lost priority on her neutral air. She can't float cancel. Her Forward throw no longer kills. Her double jump is way too low to make her recovery good (you COULD low float with that, but then that would kill your recovery unnecessarily). Her Down Smash sucks. And her projectiles aren't good.

She really doesn't have any spectacular kill options. All of her kill options like the F-air, F-smash, and the B-air require higher than average percents to kill. Her U-smash can kill vertically nicely, but that has a fairly narrow hitbox compared to the others. Without any good combos, projectiles, and survivability (lightweight and super nerfed recovery), she's not very good at all. Mediocre at best.

And WTF, I think I saw someone who thought G&W was low tier. They obviously haven't read the Back Room Impressions topic here. G&W is definitely top tier. It's not even arguable at this point. >_>

 

[OlimarFan]

No, she sucks. Most of her moveset was nerfed pretty noticeably.

She was one of the more combo oriented characters in Melee, but that's gone since she can't chaingrab, and her D-air launches people too far away for that anymore. Her Dash attack has become more unreliable at high percents. She lost priority on her neutral air. She can't float cancel. Her Forward throw no longer kills. Her double jump is way too low to make her recovery good (you COULD low float with that, but then that would kill your recovery unnecessarily). Her Down Smash sucks. And her projectiles aren't good.

She really doesn't have any spectacular kill options. All of her kill options like the F-air, F-smash, and the B-air require higher than average percents to kill. Her U-smash can kill vertically nicely, but that has a fairly narrow hitbox compared to the others. Without any good combos, projectiles, and survivability (lightweight and super nerfed recovery), she's not very good at all. Mediocre at best.

And WTF, I think I saw someone who thought G&W was low tier. They obviously haven't read the Back Room Impressions topic here. G&W is definitely top tier. It's not even arguable at this point. >_>

I agree with you on most points there. Game and Watch should be at middle, if not, lower. The Current Official Super Smash Bros. Melee Tier List didn't think so highly of Game and Watch....

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

No, she sucks. Most of her moveset was nerfed pretty noticeably.

She was one of the more combo oriented characters in Melee, but that's gone since she can't chaingrab, and her D-air launches people too far away for that anymore. Her Dash attack has become more unreliable at high percents. She lost priority on her neutral air. She can't float cancel. Her Forward throw no longer kills. Her double jump is way too low to make her recovery good (you COULD low float with that, but then that would kill your recovery unnecessarily). Her Down Smash sucks. And her projectiles aren't good.

She really doesn't have any spectacular kill options. All of her kill options like the F-air, F-smash, and the B-air require higher than average percents to kill. Her U-smash can kill vertically nicely, but that has a fairly narrow hitbox compared to the others. Without any good combos, projectiles, and survivability (lightweight and super nerfed recovery), she's not very good at all. Mediocre at best.

And WTF, I think I saw someone who thought G&W was low tier. They obviously haven't read the Back Room Impressions topic here. G&W is definitely top tier. It's not even arguable at this point. >_>

Peach is still all right. She's definitely not top tier though. I'd call her mid tier this time around. She still has more options than most characters with no reflector to approach.

HIGH
Pit
Zamus
Diddy
Meta Knight
Snake
Lucas
Dee Dee Dee
Olimar
Pikachu
Fox
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Marth
Falco
ROB
Game & Watch
Toon Link
Wolf

MID
Wario
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Link
Kirby
Bowzer
DK
Peach
Sheik
Ness
Luigi
Lucario

LOW
Sonic
Samus
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff

I actually agree with this list. Not with the order of the characters within the tiers, but with who would be in each tier in a 3 tier list.

 

[superglucose]

Yes, I know, zero posts, I'm a noob yada yada yada...

I am better (imo) at discovering the worst than the best, so I think I'm going to leave top and high teirs combined. Also, this all comes from 2 tournament and a bunch of dorm playing experience, so yes I'm not pro. I never won the tourneys though I generally win in the dorms. I do not own the game. I play as much as I can, and personally main the Spacies and Pit. Pit is probably my best character followed by Fox and Wolf.

Also in the tier they're ordered as I wanted to write them. It's early in the morning so there's no order... just as they popped into my head.

Top/High:

Pit- Yes, he's good for novices, but after going to a couple of tourneys and watching pit players do quite well... he just looks really good. Plus down throw to up air is nice. Projectiles are best in the game, as well as two (count 'em, two) reflectors that do subtly different things. Nice, NICE recovery and glide, sweet spotting the Bair is tough but rewarding, and the Dair will out range most attacks.

Metaknight- Tornado has really nice damage potential, can go all the way around hyrule temple (not that it's a tourney stage but it shows his recovery), and his arials are crazy to go with his air time. Down B is solid and the up B is also good. Fsmash is a kill move, and Dsmash to get your opponents into the air is nice. Usmash should be used as a last-resort if they got to close to the ground and you need them flying again.

Marth- Marth is a shorter-ranged version of SSBM Marth. Marth was good then and he's good now. As a note, I really like the counter and as for the combo I think it's best if you end with pressing down. The upB is ok, shield breaker isn't as good as it was, but sweetspotting with his sword is crazy good.

Fox- USmash is rather good in this game of needing high damage. Lots of little things that add up into a solid character. FSmash can hit shorthoppers, shine is still shine (though not broken like in Melee), great arials... and I like his illusion and dash attacks. Up tilt still combos with itself.

Wolf- Stronger, slower Fox. Shine is a little bit worse but the Fsmash and Dsmash are all better. Nice priority on arials, gun is good... I like to dthrow then shoot. Dsmash is a good killer, but the upsmash is weak as hell. Up b is really REALLY good and can sweetspot for late-game kills. I don't get the side-B but oh well, it looks ok... I just hate doing that move off the edge.

Diddy Kong- Fast and strong, this little guy has his bannanas to ruin approaches, a projectile (granted not a great one), and great arials. His dash is good, and his smashes are strong and prioritastic. I took down a spamming Metaknight with this on my first time playing the character. Using bannanas to trip your opponent is a good way to get smashes in.

Zelda- Djin's Fire, the teleport, usmash, dsmash (oh god the low lag on this), fsmash... this character has a lot going for her. Add in a reflector and you have a good character. If there's a nearby wall you can chain Dsmashes to get high percentages. Though it's not the best, my favorite of her throws is her down throw, and I always call it "pissing on you." I also enjoy her up air and her side and down airs can sweetspot something feirce.

Toon Link- Unfortunately, this guy's **** fine. Fast enough to contend and strong enough to kill... his boomerang is so much more pro than Link's. Range is a little lower than link's but still high and everything except the arrow is better. Arrow is quite slow, but the stall-and-fall down arial is pretty solid.

Pikachu- He's pro... the down smash is nice with good priority and I still can't figure out how to DI out of it (not that it's impossible, just impossible for ME at this point). Thunder spammable, good enough arials... a solid character through and through. Volt Tackle is pretty bad for approach (especially against Lucario, Wolf, or Falco) but dash grab is hard (at least for me) to avoid.

Middle-

Kirby- Eh... he's a natural counter to Metaknight in my limited experience, and has some nice moves, but overall I am not impressed. Rock is rock, hammer is hammer... Kirby didn't change much from his Melee days, which were almost identical to his 64 days.

Ike- Just a little too slow to make it into high or top. Kills at low percentages, nice AAA and nice smashes... when he connects you know he connects. Could be high because of so many super armors and really is quite good... I've always had an easy time with this character as Falco, Wolf, Pit or pretty much anyone who has a momentum-killing move. Counter is just a little bit too slow imo. Kept out of high because I have too easy a time against him.

Falco- Shine is the worst of the shines. Gun is really nice (especially against pesky Metaknights or Ikes) and neutral A combo is pretty powerful. Good range on the Dsmash. Can't kill for **** when compared with Wolf and Fox, however (150% versus 90% for fox and 100% for wolf) Limited chain grab.

ZSSamus- Fast, light, tether recovery, normal recovery, great range, combo potential... the only thing keeping her out of high tier is... she's predictable? I'm sorry but I have a hard time putting her as anything higher than medium because I can't remember losing to her. Even playing as random. Kept out of high because I have too easy a time against him.

Snake- Walking artillery can pose problems, but with an almost useless Dsmash (really your opponent will see you place the mine so it's just an equal obsticle for both players) and pretty mediocre specials (fun trick, catch a noob Snake's missile with your reflector)... he's saved from bottom by his arials and tilts.

Pikmin- His grab is AMAZING. Cape him while he's grabbing: he'll turn around and STILL have you grabbed. Fast, long range... it's just scary. Annoying as hell, he can rack up damage and kill quite easily. Still, sitting on the edge murderlizes him and if you manage to kill off his pikmin or he gets stuck with whites he's toast.

Lucario- He gets more powerful as he's hit. His up arial at high percentages (you or them or both) becomes a kill move, but otherwise you're hitting him left or right. He's the new Mewtwo, only he's actually good. At low percentages it's possible to Force Palm combo someone (twice, but still) and his projectile's pretty good. I hate that I can't hit anything with his upB though. Counter is a little bit too slow to change games... not at all like Marth's.

Luigi- Luigi is good. Powerful, great arials, nice throws, still has a tornado punch... firepunch is harder to hit now imo, but I haven't been able to land that attack since the original. Luigi Missile is... meh... but I like his smashes (all of them) and his dash is really nice. Still wish he had a better fireball.

Sheik- I used to main this one, but ever since those first two weeks I've never fought one. Everyone I know stays as Zelda now adays... but that could be because Zelda is awesome. I like the chain, and the needles are pretty nice too (momentum kill ftw!) Smashes are good enough, neutrals are good enough, arials are good enough... I can't think of anything bad about this character except fall speed being a little high. Of course I can't think of anything exceptional either, so being just 'good' places her in mid.

Sonic- This mofo is FAST, and moderately powerful. Honestly I just have an easy time handling him though, his homing is just ok and his hyphen-smash is a little challenging for me to pull off due to his crazy speed. What bothers me about Sonic is what bothers me about Snake: they're not nintendo characters, and there are dozens of wonderful Nintendo characters just waiting to make the jump! But that's not anything to do with how good he is, so that's a different discussion.

Ice Climbers- Ice Climbers... they can chain grab, they can do pretty much anything and it's a ***** to hit the real one sometimes. Still... projectiles are a 'meh' and the recovery is a 'meh' and the jumps are a 'meh'... this is another one of those characters that just strikes me as middle tier but I'm sure could be high tier if I saw someone who was great with them.

R.O.B.- Ok, at first I thought this was Rob64, but then I saw the robot thing and was really confused. I know next to nothing about ROB as he is the only character I have never played. He seems decent enough... I just don't know enough about him to place him anywhere else.

Lucas- He's Ness, but better. I personally like his Pk Fire better and his Pk Lightning, his USmash, his Dsmash, and his arials better than Ness. Can't think of much to say about this guy, except can someone explain why the **** his down special can protect him from projectiles behind him?

Mr. Game and Watch- Priority, *****. Deal with it. Couple with nice attacks (bair is fun, judgment still blows but the bucket... amazing). Try using this guy in a team with Zelda... Djin's Fire thrice into the bucket for a 0% kill (don't believe me? Try it!). Add to this the fact that as long as you're in Djin's Fire's range (which is fatty) you don't take damage or knockback from the projectile and it counts as a spot in the bucket. Granted against Marth you can't use the bucket... but oh well, G&W is still fairly powerful and prioritized.

Peach- I'm so close to seeing this character break through. Her butt-bump is really good, her arials are nice, floating is fun, counter is good, turnips are projectiles, and her smashes are solid. No blaring weaknesses that I can see, plus techs makes for a good character.

Low-

Captain Falcon- CF is pretty lame. I like his over B but short of that he's got lackluster clone moves of Ganondorf. Thank god he can move unlike that over-bloated fatass he's a clone of (or the other way around). Falcon Punch is rather good... if your opponent decided to go check his email while you charge it up. Falcon Kick and his A moves are pretty solid.

Jigglypuff- Really I'm the only person I've seen land rest and that scares me. I know some people who claim it's impossible... I just don't have that hard a time. Wall of Pain is still ok, good moves overall but nothing to write home about. Sing puts 'em to sleep until you stop singing... which is kind of lame and useless. Cool, we're BOTH stunned! For equal time too! Every character has the same move as Jiggs' down special... it's called the 'start' button

Pokemon Trainer- I like to go Charizard until about 120-150% then switch to Ivysaur. I really don't use squirtle that much because frankly with the fact that his Down-B doesn't do anything save switch out, he doesn't need an additional useless attack (looking right at you, watergun). Rock Smash, whatever the usmash of Ivysaur is called, withdraw, Charizard's attacks in general, Watefall... there are some solid moves in here but nothing you can really truly rely on.

Donky Kong- OK, there's a lot to like about DK. He's tough, powerful, and can beat the ever loving hell out of Metaknight. That being said, he has a tough time against pretty much everyone else. Never seen him win a match I wasn't him, makes me doubt his effectiveness because I honestly assume if I win a match I was playing against a newbie.

Link- I wish he was higher. He was hands-down my favorite SSB character back on the 64 (followed by Fox). With items on I was a PRO if I had a beam sword... sigh *reminisces to the days when he was young and foolish* anyways. He's not. He's not good. Bombs are OK, the bow is a crappy P.O.S. next to Pit, range is nice but he's so SLOW! Add to his lag... yeah.

Samus- Eh, she just don't impress. Homing missiles are fun, missiles are fun, charge shot is fun, screw attack was nerfed, mines hellza nerfed, all her attacks are weaker (or at least seem weaker) and she's no faster to boot. Tether Recovery (right?) but still... just feels so terrible.

Bowzer- You know there's an interesting way to tech win for him. Forward-special at the edge of the map and bodyslam them off. They die before you so if you're playing someone who's not expecting this you can usually take them off 123. Lost my first game in my second tournament that way... won the match though (it's not too hard to get used to, it can just shock you if you're used to playing on the edges which I do with Pit). Overall he's strong but not fast. Not nearly as bad as he was in Melee.


Mario- By now you know I punish utterly useless moves with reckless abandon. These aren't moves that shouldn't ever do anything... these are moves that DON'T do anything. Sing for Jigglypuff and Watergun for Squirtle are the ones that come to mind. If you're a pro you can make those moves do a little bit, but they're either so situational (Watergun to stop a recovery) that they're just dumb or they're so useless (Sing) that I often wonder why they even exist. That being said, FLUD has to be the WORST excuse for a special ever. Sorry but everything it can do the cape does better, because it also damages! Low (LOW) range and priority leaves Mario wanting.

Bottom-

DeDeDe- Let the flaming begin. I have been to two tournaments. I have spent hundreds of hours playing in a dorm. I have done my ****edest. I do not honestly SEE how this character is ANY good. So he can chain grab. So can Falco. Maybe DeDeDe's is better, I don't know, all I do know is I've never seen this character win a fight. In an entire tournament where he was used for five 3 stock matches, I saw him get one kill. This is based on my experience and in my experience DeDeDe is useless.

Ness- Just don't like it. I've not seen him be decent. I three-stock everyone I know who plays him (yes I know I don't know many pro Ness players) and he just seems bad. I did start playing him and I really REALLY liked using PK Fire to hold my opponent down while I PK Flash, but it just wasn't enough. Flash is better than Lucas' counterpart (IMO) but overall, just... not good.

Wario- Grrr... those smashes lag like little *****es and missing with one will end up with you off the screen crying. I've yet to see a good wario player, and it perplexes me that people consider him to be amazing. The fart is great... but it takes so long to charge. The bike is fine... but it's just a bike. his Up B is good enough, but that's about it imo.

Worst Character Ever-

Ganondorf- Dear GOD is this guy lame. For his smashes, even off the Cstick, I can trim my nails before it gets to me. His down-B is fun to avoid, his overB, while cool, has literally 0 knockback, up B is hard to land, his up smash is pretty pathetic, his down smash is one of those "well, I guess there's an attack coming. Maybe I ought to move? Or spot dodge. Or roll. Or jump. Well, I'll just roll a dice to decide) before avoiding moves. His neutral B... oh god. Yeah it kills at like -5% but who cares? I can walk my dog, eat lunch, do my homework, go to class, change the oil in my car, vacuum, buy groceries, and learn to tap dance before that thing even finishes charging. After that I still have another day or five before it lands, during which I can do literally anything to stop it. I feel like I could play a game by simply sneezing on my virtual controller and be reasonably assured of winning anyone versus ganondorf. Sorry if he turns out to be a god... I just don't see how he's even viable.

 

[OlimarFan]

Nice tier list superglucose I generally agree with most points maybe Samus, ZSS, Olimar a bit higher and Zelda lower.

 

[menofuntall]

Eh, I'm just going to deal with the part that really, really bugs me.

Ness- Just don't like it. I've not seen him be decent. I three-stock everyone I know who plays him (yes I know I don't know many pro Ness players) and he just seems bad. I did start playing him and I really REALLY liked using PK Fire to hold my opponent down while I PK Flash, but it just wasn't enough. Flash is better than Lucas' counterpart (IMO) but overall, just... not good.

...Uh, I really hope that's not the only thing you do with Ness. PK Flash is actually not a move you'd want to use a lot. Ness's greatest strengths lie in his aerial game, which is pretty **** good. You can pretty much chain any of his aerials together, and he has some pretty awesome options to get the opponents into the air (Down Throw, Up Throw, Dash Attack, probably something else).

With proper mindgames, PK Thunder is deadly, Back Throw is pretty much guaranteed to kill at 130%, his Back Air's sweetspot kills, his Up Air can kill, he has a ****ing strong spike, he has the (defensive) Yo-yos, and he does have PSI Magnet, but hell if it activates fast enough. PK Fire really isn't meant to link into PK Flash, but rather grabs or dash attacks. If there's anything wrong with Ness, it's his weight and his poor third jump (compared to others).

 

[TehBo49]

I agree with you on most points there. Game and Watch should be at middle, if not, lower. The Current Official Super Smash Bros. Melee Tier List didn't think so highly of Game and Watch....

Character's positions on the Melee tier lists are completly irrelavent. This is a different game. I can't believe that you would seriously use that as an arguement. G&W actually is top tier like A2ZOMG said. Go into the G&W Boards or watch a few videos & you'll see what I mean.

@ superglucose: Honestly, that list sucks. There are so many things wrong with it, but I'm just going to point out a few.

Dedede is not bottom tier. He has the best chaingrab, a lot of power, weight, a great b-air, a great projectile, & range. The fact that you haven't seen him win a tournament means nothing; I've never seen a Corvette before but they still exist. Dedede does win tournaments.

Ness isn't bottom tier. He has awesome aerials (especially f-air), a strong f-smash, 2 of his projectiles are really good, & he has strong throws. Just because you beat your friend's Ness doesn't make him bottom tier.

Sorry for sounding a little mean, but it's pretty obvious that Ness & Dedede are good characters. Also, G&W, Olimar, Lucas, ROB, & ICs need to move up. I'd provide reasons, but I just don't have the time to do all these characters so someone else can do it for me.

 

[King GeGeGe]

STOP PUTTING DONKEY KONG AT LOW TIER. HES REALLY GOOD.


that is all.

He's been hugely buffed and is I would say easily mid-tier. He is faster than any other heavy, he has decent priority, and a killer bair to boot. I say people need to take him more seriously

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Snake at mid tier?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Giant post.

Anyhow, here's where you went wrong.

Fox isn't all that good really. His projectile spam is so so. His kill and combo options overall are much toned down. There are many characters that simply can do what he can, but more effectively. Not saying he isn't good though.

Snake is on the top. Tilts and projectile game make him unfairly good.

G&W is on top...like waaaaay on top. He is one of the most difficult characters to punish in the game, and he kills stuff really really fast.

Peach and Sonic suck. Sorry. Both have trouble killing reasonably and they don't have any other spectacularly good traits to compensate.

ROB and the ICs are high tier at least.

Mario is quite good. He ledgeguards better than most characters. His projectile is actually decent. He doesn't get projectile spammed, and he's really really fast.

Dedede, Ness, and Wario are really good. Where have you been?

Captain Falcon is also worse than Ganondorf...quite seriously. It's sad to the point where Ganondorf combos and kills better than Captain Falcon.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

So aren't you doing to Ganondorf what everybody else is doing to Jiggly?

I am, except for the fact that ganon has a pretty bad ground game and a bad aerial game, he's also way too big a target, and so on. I have a lot of respect for people who main him, and I realise every character can be useable (heck, look at Taj's mew2 in melee), but what they've done to Ganon I still can't believe, ganoncide really isn't helping him, and lack of L-canceling is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to him.

Rest was a large part of Jigglypuff's game and it being nerfed is a pretty big deal. Because it knocks them straight up which makes it alot easier to get back to Jigglypuff in the time it takes for her to wake up. So even if you hit rest you're still liable to be punched in the face.

If a rest didn't kill you, the jiggly player you faced sucks, big time. Knowing the kill percentages for rest is a must, resting before your opponent reaches that critical percentage is a no-go. Brawl's also floatier, 1 hit is possible, but if you hit, your opponent isn't going to be able to smash you into oblivion.

I feel like Jigglypuff's aerial movement isn't as good as it was in Melee. Maybe I just need to play as her a bit more and get used to it but at this point it seems Squirtle has more aerial agility. Also most characters are more capable in the air so the gap in aerials between Jigglypuff and the rest of the cast is minimal.

Wario has better aerial movement, squirtle's also has a pretty cool aerial game, but they don't have the amount of jumps and vertical recovery Jigz has, I also don't think they can SH-double-aerial, or chain someone of the edge.

Also Jigglypuff's smashes are laggier at the startup which is somewhat of a problem. Overall Jigglypuff has been nerfed pretty badly while the rest of the cast got buffs. I'll need to play more as Jigglypuff before I make any final judgement but as of now at the bottom with G-dorf may be the right place.

Her smashes? The only one I ever use is F-smash, and this on very rare occasions where I know I can punish another laggy move. Smashes don't really matter, though, all her aerials got a pretty big buff:
Fair: Sweetspot with killing-potential, great for ending a bair-chain with close to the edge.
Bair: Reduced knockback, so increased follow-up potential, is still easily her best aerial for approach.
Uair: Don't know what they did to this move, but for some reason it can kill AND chain.
Dair: can poke through shields, has pretty high priority and can be auto-canceled on the ground, allowing for a rest-combo.
Nair: fast, big hotbox, I love this move, it's great for intercepting recovering characters. It also out-prioritises a lot of projectiles and stays out pretty long.

I'm not going to deny the nerf, but really, she isn't the only character to get a nerf, nor is it as bad as some of the others (looking at Falcon, I guess, Samus and Sheik aren't what they used to be either). And claiming that some characters gained such an extreme buff to the point where they wipe the floor with jiggly is just being extremely subjective.
But yeah, Kirby got a huge buff, if you're basing your opinion on that.


Also, nothing against Yoshi, but really, he doesn't feel that buffed to me, armor frames during 2nd jump are cool, but I feel like his shield is still hindering him, his recovery still isn't exactly the greatest and I don't see him shine anywhere. Compare that to jiggly with a great aerial game, uber recovery (vertical height gained during a jump just got increased, her recovery is better than it was in melee.) and a low-percentage, lagless kill move.

I also could care less about her placement on the tiers lists, but I don't think I need, nor do I deserve the respect ganon-players get, or the "lol, u got da jiggly-pownd" effect, because to me, that really doesn't sound weird at all. I just felt like everyone here is misinformed about her potential. Sure, Mango gave up on brawl and the King now mains Marth (I'm still shocked), but just because a she's underrepresented doesn't mean she fails.

 

[BDawgPHD]

He's been hugely buffed and is I would say easily mid-tier. He is faster than any other heavy, he has decent priority, and a killer bair to boot. I say people need to take him more seriously

He's more than that, he controls a massive amount of space around him nearly all the time. For instance, let's say you're DK, and there's someone on a platform above you. If you usmash, and they regular shield it, they'll typically get knocked off the platform and land on the ground in the "I fell" state, where you can immediately fsmash and hit them relatively easily. Also, it's tough to dodge his aerials because dodging one puts you at major risk of getting hit by a different aerial.

He also has 3 spikes, incredible ground range without sacrificing a lot of speed, a ridiculously cool PLANNED stage spike, and a lot of strength. Taking into account that a good player won't get gimped off the side of the stage easily, DK is just a beast.

 

[Frogger255]

I'm not flaming you, this is based on curiosity alone.

That being said, I'm going to assume that this list was decided by you based on you're play with your friends. If that's the case than maybe I can help you understand why you are so wrong.

I'm not gunna mention the lack of some of the best characters, but I bolded the ones that are in such a completely wrong place.

Why did you put those bolded characters where you put them? I'm not flaming I'm just asking. What about them made you put Ice Climbers and Pikachu low, and Sonic, Pit, Rob and Wolf mid? Why?


If you were going to put up a three part tier list, I should look ROUGHLY like this.

HIGH
Pit
Zamus
Diddy
Meta Knight
Snake
Lucas
Dee Dee Dee
Olimar
Pikachu
Fox
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Marth
Falco
ROB
Game & Watch
Toon Link
Wolf

MID
Wario
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Link
Kirby
Bowzer
DK
Peach
Sheik
Ness
Luigi
Lucario

LOW
Sonic
Samus
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff

I admit I may has misplaced and omitted some characters that is my fault but Snake and Zero Suit really are not top tiers they have too much lag and rely on techs that are too easy to read. Olimar is easy punishable by projectiles. Sonic is not low because all his moves are fast and has some good KO moves he can easily be in the middle.

 

[Mr. Ryu]

Eh, here's my personal tier list. Keep in mind that I'm just listing characters who I think should belong in a certain tier.

Top:
Metaknight
Toon Link
Game and Watch
Snake
Falco
Marth
Diddy Kong

High
Squirtle
ROB
Pit
Luigi
Dedede
Olimar
Lucas
Ike
Zelda
Pikachu

Mid
Charizard
Fox
Shiek
Wolf
Ness
Wario
Mario
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zamus

Low
Yoshi
Kirby
Lucario
Samus
Peach
Sonic
Link
Jigglypuff

Crap
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon (I miss him, lol)
Ganondorf

 

[DarkWarCloud]

captain falcon may have been nerfed... but he certainly isnt crap.
peach is going to be amazing once people start to get the hang of her like in melee.
rob is going to be TOP TOP TOP.
the list is pretty much OK, but there are a lot of small flaws i could point out of it.
also, i think once we get someone who can get grabs in and can chain grab consistently with IC's they will become top tier.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I agree with you on most points there. Game and Watch should be at middle, if not, lower. The Current Official Super Smash Bros. Melee Tier List didn't think so highly of Game and Watch....

Okay, and this game is Brawl. And in Brawl, Game and Watch is amazing. Stop talking out of your ***, do you even have any idea how good G&W is?

 

[St. Viers]

re: jiggz.

She isn't bad, no one is saying that. She just is worse than everyone else. Except ganon, and maybe falcon (though I believe falcon is better than people think so far).

The problems are these:
1. Because her only good approaches are f/b-air, the fact that they got slightly buffed is negated because of move degradation. Yes, this makes comboing easier, but as combos aren't valid, it isn't as easy/doable even to combo someone off the stage.

2. Her kill moves are pretty much f-air, f-smash, and rest. Rest is still good, as you can combo into it, (though I don't think that d-air pokes shields, so maybe not), but move degradation kills f-air, and f-smash is kinda slow. So in other words, she needs to work for kills, while being easily killed herself, especially against people with only decent up-airs.

3. As most characters have a better aerial game, being the queen of the air isn't as good. It still has some advantages, but wario, squirtle, and marth all have similarly haxx DI ability, Metaknight has more mobility, if not maneuverability. And the rest of the cast has enough of an aerial boost to complete.

4. Approaching. Even with f/b-air approaching, it still sucks. Because there is so little hitstun, they can follow up, even when you do the previously broken, spaced f/b-airs that retreat as far as they advanced.

 

[BDawgPHD]

re: jiggz.

She isn't bad, no one is saying that. She just is worse than everyone else. Except ganon, and maybe falcon (though I believe falcon is better than people think so far).

The problems are these:
1. Because her only good approaches are f/b-air, the fact that they got slightly buffed is negated because of move degradation. Yes, this makes comboing easier, but as combos aren't valid, it isn't as easy/doable even to combo someone off the stage.

2. Her kill moves are pretty much f-air, f-smash, and rest. Rest is still good, as you can combo into it, (though I don't think that d-air pokes shields, so maybe not), but move degradation kills f-air, and f-smash is kinda slow. So in other words, she needs to work for kills, while being easily killed herself, especially against people with only decent up-airs.

3. As most characters have a better aerial game, being the queen of the air isn't as good. It still has some advantages, but wario, squirtle, and marth all have similarly haxx DI ability, Metaknight has more mobility, if not maneuverability. And the rest of the cast has enough of an aerial boost to complete.

4. Approaching. Even with f/b-air approaching, it still sucks. Because there is so little hitstun, they can follow up, even when you do the previously broken, spaced f/b-airs that retreat as far as they advanced.

Most of that is true, Jiggs doesn't do as well anyway because in Melee, she could WoP someone off the stage because they couldn't do things like airdodge safely. Now with the new airdodge system, it's easier to escape the WoP alive.

Also, MK's aerial mobility is bad as far as horizontal speed, unless you glide, which limits where you can go to some extent, and prevents you from doing aerials right away, since you can only attack right in front of you in glide. That's one of the reasons MK's FoP (floor of pain ) is hard to pull off, since you pretty much have to guess the DI and hope you have the speed to keep the character directly above you.

 

[hizzlum]

Lucario is mid tier because the damage to power things doesen't make him bad or very good, he does have the SH double fair which gives him an appoarch, invisble hit boxes, a counter (although a bad one), a slightly bad recovery(bending helps mindgames), and he does have the wall cling which is very good on some neutral stages like yoshi's island (ssbb) beacuse of the walls and FD, which is difficult but can aid his recovery to get back on the stage. He shouldn't be in the low or high tiers beacuse of the damage thing, he is a middle tier for sure

 

[Corner-Trap]

Then what is this ? http://gamebattles.com/wii/smash-bros/

And sorry I got confused about floaty/light, wasnt thinking

Thats gamebattles, an online ranking site, not a tournament. SSBB is not featured in this years MLG circuit, did you not watch their ESPN show like two weeks ago?

 

[BDawgPHD]

Thats gamebattles, an online ranking site, not a tournament. SSBB is not featured in this years MLG circuit, did you not watch their ESPN show like two weeks ago?

I haven't even kept up with MLG since Halo 2 was the competitive game.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

re: jiggz.

She isn't bad, no one is saying that. She just is worse than everyone else. Except ganon, and maybe falcon (though I believe falcon is better than people think so far).

The problems are these:
1. Because her only good approaches are f/b-air, the fact that they got slightly buffed is negated because of move degradation. Yes, this makes comboing easier, but as combos aren't valid, it isn't as easy/doable even to combo someone off the stage.

2. Her kill moves are pretty much f-air, f-smash, and rest. Rest is still good, as you can combo into it, (though I don't think that d-air pokes shields, so maybe not), but move degradation kills f-air, and f-smash is kinda slow. So in other words, she needs to work for kills, while being easily killed herself, especially against people with only decent up-airs.

3. As most characters have a better aerial game, being the queen of the air isn't as good. It still has some advantages, but wario, squirtle, and marth all have similarly haxx DI ability, Metaknight has more mobility, if not maneuverability. And the rest of the cast has enough of an aerial boost to complete.

4. Approaching. Even with f/b-air approaching, it still sucks. Because there is so little hitstun, they can follow up, even when you do the previously broken, spaced f/b-airs that retreat as far as they advanced.

So you're saying she has:
A lacking approach
Limited amount of kill moves (her edgeguarding abilities don't count, I guess)
DI similar to some of the best aerial characters in the game, but who lack multiple jumps.

Those a pretty good reasons why she doesn't belong in High tier, but I don't see how that makes her one of the worst characters in the game.

Move degradation pretty much only affects bair most of the time, you can soft-fair someone off the edge, but bair is still way better, so the sweetspot should still be pretty effective.
And chaining bairs is still possibly even with the low hitstun, you just have to not blindlessly jump around doing bairs anymore, but counter what your opponent is doing. Characters with laggy aerials are easily owned, after your opponent airdodged you can still hit them, and because she barely loses height, it's not that hard to do. Characters with faster aerials are harder, but if your spacing is right, it should still be possible, and it's not like hitstun is gone completely anyways.
And bair and fair aren't her only usable approach moves, SH-dair is useful, she has a very short initial dash, which allows for dash->shield->grab without much risk, and uair is useful for getting opponents in the air.

But feel free to think she's one of the worst characters in the game, just don't be too shocked when she turns out not to be.

Also, I'm probably going to stop wasting my time here, because this thread is pretty silly anyways. Just wanted to inform you guys on Jiggly, and I hope I have. And I swear, if someone places her higher than low-mid after my posts, I'm going to laugh at you for being so very influencable.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I haven't even kept up with MLG since Halo 2 was the competitive game.

I play Halo so I still watch MLG, but they've really fallen off when it comes to Smash. They're just out of touch with our community, have you seen their film fest contest? Pitiful.

 

[BibulousDan]

Alright, This is my opinion on what the tier list will be.

Top:

Toon Link
Fox
Falco
Marth

High:

Snake
Lucas
Metaknight
Samus
Sheik
Wolf
Kirby
DDD
...................Can't think anymore..........

 

[BDawgPHD]

So you're saying she has:
A lacking approach
Limited amount of kill moves (her edgeguarding abilities don't count, I guess)
DI similar to some of the best aerial characters in the game, but who lack multiple jumps.

Those a pretty good reasons why she doesn't belong in High tier, but I don't see how that makes her one of the worst characters in the game.

Move degradation pretty much only affects bair most of the time, you can soft-fair someone off the edge, but bair is still way better, so the sweetspot should still be pretty effective.
And chaining bairs is still possibly even with the low hitstun, you just have to not blindlessly jump around doing bairs anymore, but counter what your opponent is doing. Characters with laggy aerials are easily owned, after your opponent airdodged you can still hit them, and because she barely loses height, it's not that hard to do. Characters with faster aerials are harder, but if your spacing is right, it should still be possible, and it's not like hitstun is gone completely anyways.
And bair and fair aren't her only usable approach moves, SH-dair is useful, she has a very short initial dash, which allows for dash->shield->grab without much risk, and uair is useful for getting opponents in the air.

But feel free to think she's one of the worst characters in the game, just don't be too shocked when she turns out not to be.

Also, I'm probably going to stop wasting my time here, because this thread is pretty silly anyways. Just wanted to inform you guys on Jiggly, and I hope I have. And I swear, if someone places her higher than low-mid after my posts, I'm going to laugh at you for being so very influencable.

The thing is that her big punch in Melee was that she was floaty and everywhere, all of her aerials were decent, but good to combo with, it was difficult to dodge her attacks and get out of combos, and she had killers like rollout and rest, and the pound was insane. Her rest got nerfed, which isn't a big tall deal, and a few of her attacks got minor buffs, but she can't combo very well anymore because of airdodging, meaning she can't WoP people off the stage. A good player can make good use of Jiggs, I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that Jiggs will always be in mid-high risk situations against smart players that....again...know how to play Brawl.....and she doesn't get a lot of reward for that risk. She's lightweight like Meta Knight, Toon Link, and Kirby, but all of these characters are adept at spacing, minimizing risk, and maximizing reward, whereas Jiggs just isn't.

I play Halo so I still watch MLG, but they've really fallen off when it comes to Smash. They're just out of touch with our community, have you seen their film fest contest? Pitiful.

..........okay, I'll cut you a break....I won't **** all over SRK this time.

 

[Blistering Speed]

This Tier Discussion is always over DK, Yoshi, SNake, Pit, MK, Oli, Falco or Bowser.
Why are people ignoring the rest of the cast? Some people just need to get over themselves and realise where there character should be *Looking at you Yoshi mainers*
Im a Marth and Lucas mainer and I believe they're both high tier (as in high tier, not high in the tiers), if anyone wants to dispute that they can feel free, this is a discussion thread, but most people who post here seem fixed on there own ideals and no amount of logic from others will change there opinion.

The other bad thing I keep seeing is people supporting there characters by posting a big list of there pros. Every character has a few pros, tiers are about comparing to the other characters in matchups and in raw ability (and tournaments but we'll leave that out for now).

You can carry on now

 

[blln4lyf]

The thing is that her big punch in Melee was that she was floaty and everywhere, all of her aerials were decent, but good to combo with, it was difficult to dodge her attacks and get out of combos, and she had killers like rollout and rest, and the pound was insane. Her rest got nerfed, which isn't a big tall deal, and a few of her attacks got minor buffs, but she can't combo very well anymore because of airdodging, meaning she can't WoP people off the stage. A good player can make good use of Jiggs, I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that Jiggs will always be in mid-high risk situations against smart players that....again...know how to play Brawl.....and she doesn't get a lot of reward for that risk. She's lightweight like Meta Knight, Toon Link, and Kirby, but all of these characters are adept at spacing, minimizing risk, and maximizing reward, whereas Jiggs just isn't.



..........okay, I'll cut you a break....I won't **** all over SRK this time.

Can you please discuss TL and state what is good and bad about him, and where you think he will be located on the tier list.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Alright, This is my opinion on what the tier list will be.

Top:

Toon Link
Fox
Falco
Marth

High:

Snake
Lucas
Metaknight
Samus
Sheik
Wolf
Kirby
DDD
...................Can't think anymore..........

I thought you were BDawgPHD, I was about to say WTF.

..........okay, I'll cut you a break....I won't **** all over SRK this time.

You better considering we're hosting Brawl at Evo.

 

[BibulousDan]

I thought you were BDawgPHD, I was about to say WTF.



You better considering we're hosting Brawl at Evo.

lol, i knew having the same avatar would cause trouble. lol

 

[KosukeKGA]

This is my friend's tier list. Criticism is needed. Go.

Top Tier:
---------
1. R.O.B.
2. Marth
3. King Dedede
4. Snake
5. Toon Link
6. Falco
7. Meta Knight
8. Ice Climbers

High Tier:
---------
9. Wario
10. Zelda/Sheik
11. Ike
12. Pit
13. Pikachu
14. Lucas
15. Mr Game & Watch
16. Sonic

Mid-Tier:
---------
17. Ness
18. Luigi
19. Fox
20. Lucario
21. Diddy Kong
22. Kirby
23. Pokemon Trainer
24. Peach

Low Tier:
---------
25. Yoshi
26. Jigglypuff
27. Captain Falcon
28. Samus
29. Mario
30. Donkey Kong
31. Bowser



Bottom Tier:
------------
32. Wolf
33. Link
34. Olimar
35. Ganondorf

 

[BDawgPHD]

Can you please discuss TL and state what is good and bad about him, and where you think he will be located on the tier list.

You know, I don't exactly know a lot about Toon Link, but I might as well give it a try

His only real bad point is that he's light and easily knocked around. His bombs aren't sexy like Link, he doesn't have a sex kick like Link, and his boomerang isn't all windy like Link's, which is lame =/

But other than that, he has a lot of ranged, strong, disjointed close-up attacks, some good, useful projectiles, and a sweet recovery. As I suggested before, he doesn't need to put himself in high-risk situations because he can camp with projectiles, and he's good at spacing and stuff. I'm not gonna think too hard about it, but I want to use him now, so he must be pretty cool XD I'd put him top of high tier/bottom of low tier, but I'm not even comparing him to everyone else.

You better considering we're hosting Brawl at Evo.

What's an Evo? Does it hurt?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

WOW. Your friend is a complete noob. Wolf and Olimar in Bottm? Yoshi only low? Sonic in High? Diddy only Mid? CF NOT bottom? Please get that **** out of my face.



Oh and Vulgar, if your here, I'm gonna have to pass on this week's planned battles. My friends got groundedbecause he got a 77 in Science and since my sister Ninja'd my Wii when she went back to school in missouri, I don't have a wii to play on -_-.

 

[1HKO]

I agree with Nigerian Star Storm on this one. OLIMAR on bottom tier?!?!

 

[KosukeKGA]

So that's the only problem with it? Olimar and Wolf? I see.

 

[Dizzynecro]

S tier
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link

A tier
MetaKnight
Game and Watch
Ice Climbers
Snake
R.O.B.

B tier
Olimar
Dedede
Zelda
Ike
Pit
Kirby
Lucas
Diddy
Falco
Pikachu

C tier
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Samus
Zamus
DK
Fox
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Jigglypuff

D tier
Sonic
Link
Yoshi

E tier
Bowser

F tier
Gannondorf

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

S tier
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link

A tier
MetaKnight
Game and Watch
Ice Climbers
Snake
R.O.B.

B tier
Olimar
Dedede
Zelda
Ike
Pit
Kirby
Lucas
Diddy
Falco
Pikachu

C tier
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Samus
Zamus
DK
Fox
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Jigglypuff

D tier
Sonic
Link
Yoshi

E tier
Bowser

F tier
Gannondorf

Why are Luigi, Fox, Zamus, and Pikachu so low?

 

[BDawgPHD]

S tier (THE S IS FOR SUCKS, AS IN 'THIS TIER LIST SUCKS')
[some bad tier list]
F tier (THE F IS FOR "**** THIS TIER LIST")
Gannondorf (YES, HE SPELLED "GANONDORF" WRONG)

I'm not even gonna tear the **** out of this thing. I'm just gonna say that any list that puts Bowser that low is ****.