Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Emblem Lord]

You can hit his grab.

>_>

 

[chansen]

Umm, what makes Ganon so bad, why is he ALWAYS in bottom tier?

Sorry this was forever ago...but hes bottom tier because hes easily punishable mang.

 

[tropewhat]

i think luigi should also be high tier

i dont really have anything substantial to back this up with but he's pretty rounded and has a number of really good moves

 

[Undrdog]

Not the best recovery in the game, metaknight can glide forever if you know how to use his glide and then b up. ROB has a good recovery thats better than pit(cuz rob can WoP and stall and stuff) but not MK

LOL! Pit can literally stay in the air forever. He has an infinite fly, how can his recovery be worse then ROB's!?

 

[Corigames]

Because the second Pit is hit... well, let's just not talk about it...

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Umm, what makes Ganon so bad, why is he ALWAYS in bottom tier?

He's slow, and pretty much only has one good move (side b), and a few useable moves to help. Having few good options makes him more predictable, and being so slow makes him even easier to punish.

 

[TehBo49]

True Lucas does have a good aerial game but just about any lucas and ness main will tell you ness's is alot more superior to lucas's. Ness has 3 projectiles as well but you only put him on low mid tier (then again only 1 is that great, another iffy one that stuns, and a useless slow but powerful one) True his smashes are great too, but all are easily UBER punishable besides his stick, the tether recovery is great but his grab is slow (even slower than a non pivot grab from yoshi)

I don't blaim you on the yoshi thing, no one seems to know anything about him and everyone who doesn't use him or have played a good one will put him on bottom tier. True his smashes aren't all that great, Dsmash nerf, Upsmash nerf, but his up and forward smash all have a dodging quality when he initiates them do to he leans his head back making him alot smaller target and he can dodge other smashes and punish by doing this. Oh and his aerial game is alot more than decent, I'm sure if you asked alot of people who've played a good yoshi would say his aerial game is probably top 5 do to they are all useful. True his projectile is alot more dificult than most but he can juggle people recovering with it easily. His recovery is awfully predictable do to no real recovery move it's more like a stall with distance but if you time his second jump as your being attacked you get juggernaut frames and fly right through it. His best qualities are probably his awesome edgeguarding game, and the fact his Bair combos into ANYTHING even smashes, and it shield pokes so there's no way around being hit.

I still think Lucas makes top tier. Ness was lower because of his ground game (smash attacks suck) & his gimpable recovery. Thanks for the information on Yoshi though. I'll move him up once I get the chance to update my list.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Also, does SNAKE counter FALCO?

Yes.

Snake absolutely owns Falco, it's not even a viable contest....it's like Link from SSB versus Fox in Melee in the Melee physics engine.

 

[SuperLink9]

Would Ice Climber's "glitchy" grab make them top tier? Or does it not include things like that?

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

It seems like Snake and Pikachu counter most people in this game. >_>

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Would Ice Climber's "glitchy" grab make them top tier? Or does it not include things like that?

That depends if it will get banned or not. It will most likely get banned eventually.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Would Ice Climber's "glitchy" grab make them top tier? Or does it not include things like that?

No. However, their chain/infinite grabs certainly will.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Their chain/ifinite grabs won't move them anywhere if they get banned later.

 

[PowerBomb]

No. However, their chain/infinite grabs certainly will.

Wait. Will Ice Climbers have a chance at being top tier even without their chain grabs?
Or is their meta game dependent on the chain grabs?

 

[Vidda]

Wait. Will Ice Climbers have a chance at being top tier even without their chain grabs?
Or is their meta game dependent on the chain grabs?

They're still good, but high/top tier is dependent on the grab.

 

[Griffard]

i doubt ICs will be banned, but i'm sure there will be some sort of limitation on the infinites, like time or damage like there was for some tourneys in melee with wobbling. i say they're certainly in high tier and will not move at all. Remember, one week in the japan tourney thread they were at the S-level! (top group)

 

[Pledge]

Why do people keep putting Wolf high/top tier? J/W.

 

[Deleted member]

But Yoshi's grab is slower than Lucas's grab to start up, and has about the same range...

IF anyone has the best grab in the game, it's Olimar. No lag, no startup time. Wow.

Pivot grabs. But actually ur right olimar does have better than yoshi. Im done talkin bout yoshi here, if yoshis start winning tournies people will take notice but for now ill argue for other characters =)
And yea their infinates will definately be banned unless there a way to break out that is discovered.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes.

Snake absolutely owns Falco, it's not even a viable contest....it's like Link from SSB versus Fox in Melee in the Melee physics engine.

That was a bad comparison.
You never compare characters from different games.

Its better to say Link from SSBM.

It seems like Snake and Pikachu counter most people in this game. >_>

Because no one takes into account approach and strategy.Half the discussion in this topic is more of he said she said.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Snake is not a terrible match-up for Falco. Where are you getting your information? Certainly it can be difficult for Falco to get inside Snake and start racking up damage, but if you can stay on top of him once you do, the match-up is far from unwinnable.

 

[zapdose]

Why do people keep putting Wolf high/top tier? J/W.

Wolf is a master camper. It can camp with it's blaster (which cannot be reflected since it goes such a short distance) and it can camp with its ridiculously long forward smash. It's other moves are also pretty good (bair, ftilt, dsmash, etcc)

 

[PIMPSLAP]

wolf runs when aproached with forward b

 

[BDawgPHD]

That was a bad comparison.
You never compare characters from different games.

Its better to say Link from SSBM.

Not really, because Link from SSBM actually stood a chance, and doesn't ALWAYS get gimped compulsively into hell, whereas Link from SSB sucked major monkey balls and would just die explosively.

 

[supercake]

ok here we go:

Top:
Snake - godly camper, great mindgames, smashes can kill at very low %, has a good matchup on almost everyone in the game. He HAS to be top tier.
Toon Link - camp, priority, decent recovery, good combos, mind games, there is nothing bad about him.
Meta Knight- BEST recovery, godly priority, good matchups

High
Pit - good camper, two reflectors, priority, good recovery
Marth - he isnt top because he is slower and has harder time chaingrabbing. if you flame fine but i will be right in the end.
G&W - omg his smashes and frame times are incredible.
R.O.B - fantastic recovery, can WOP
Dedede - chaingrab is great, can actually camp, strong heavy and has good people vouching for him so ok.
Wolf - great smashes and tilts, has two ways to camp, fine matchups
Olimar - one of the best campers, ridiculous smash and tilts with range, but one of the worst recoveries will always keep him from top.
Falco - very nice gun, typical spacy advantages
Diddy - fast attacks, bananas and gun make him a pretty good camper
Lucas - very good recovery, good camping, pretty good matchups
Lucario - kinda unsure about this one but somewhere between high mid and mid high because of good specials and camping abilities.
Fox - most of his moves have been nerfed but still pretty good
Zero Suit Samus- very long range with attacks, an alright camper, can possibly combo
Ice Climbers- basically their spot varies according how the chaingrab turns out to work

Mid
Pikachu - very good matchups
Zelda/Shiek - it makes as much since to include these apart as it does pokemon trainer. shieks been nerfed a lot but zelda is actually good now.
Mario - defines the average in every conceivable way
Ness - solid character, stronger than in melee but bad recovery
Kirby - stronger now but specials suck
Pokemon Trainer- it makes no since to include them apart, squirtle is good, charizard is ok, ivysaur is bad, evens out.
Luigi - dont know much about him so I could be wrong
Peach - nerfed but not so bad, has some interesting adv techs and recovery still very good.
Samus - misssiles and bombs have been nerfed some, but still good enough for mid

Low
Sonic - aweful priority, no finisher, but speed and recovery make him top of low and maybe even low mid if something is discovered.
Yoshi - probably not as bad as his rep but still pretty bad. STILL cannot jump out of shield.
Donkey Kong - i admit i dont know much about him but he doesnt look that much better.
Wario - good recovery but everything else *****
Bowser - pretty bad, just like before, but still barely useable
Jigglypufff - WOP castrated, very light, priority nerfed, favorite for worst special (up b) in game.

Bottom
falcon - my my how the mighty have fallen. his knee is much harder to pull off. slower, no camping, no range, bad priority, bad recovery. bad matchups against everyone almost.
Ganondorf - impossible to camp with, VERY slow makeshim easily punishable, **** priority, recovery nerfed.

 

[SK8orDIE]

Snake is not a terrible match-up for Falco. Where are you getting your information? Certainly it can be difficult for Falco to get inside Snake and start racking up damage, but if you can stay on top of him once you do, the match-up is far from unwinnable.

Yes.

Snake absolutely owns Falco, it's not even a viable contest....it's like Link from SSB versus Fox in Melee in the Melee physics engine.

I'd go so far as saying that this matchup slightly favors Falco. He can chaingrab Snake from 0-50%, detonate grenades with his lasers, and gimp Snake's recovery with a spike. Now Snake does have ways around these issues, especially staying low to avoid laser spam and keeping his recovery high and air-dodgy to avoid getting spiked out of cypher, but the burden is on Snake to avoid these problems. Also, Snake's slow aerial game makes him Falco fodder without proper cover fire.

 

[KeyKid19]

ok here we go:

falcon - my my how the mighty have fallen. his knee is much harder to pull off. slower, no camping, no range, bad priority, bad recovery. bad matchups against everyone almost.

Falcon's recovery is not bad by any stretch. The rest of that stuff about him is right but his recovery is definitely not a weak point.

 

[Shiri]

I don't think the "difficulty" of Captain Falcon's knee should be criteria for his tier placing. >_>

 

[bLeAkWuN]

Tires Don Exits!!

well, at the last event i saw mostly wolf's nd pit's...those 2 are definitely top tier in this area...

 

[BDawgPHD]

I'd go so far as saying that this matchup slightly favors Falco. He can chaingrab Snake from 0-50%, detonate grenades with his lasers, and gimp Snake's recovery with a spike. Now Snake does have ways around these issues, especially staying low to avoid laser spam and keeping his recovery high and air-dodgy to avoid getting spiked out of cypher, but the burden is on Snake to avoid these problems. Also, Snake's slow aerial game makes him Falco fodder without proper cover fire.

You obviously have no idea how broken Snake is, do you? He outranges just about everyone with tilts alone, not even including his projectiles. Falco cannot outcamp Snake at all because Snake can crawl under lasers/shine/aerials. Snake can tilt Falco if Falco gets too close to him.

( See "Snake's tilts are broken" )

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

ok here we go:

Top:
Snake - godly camper, great mindgames, smashes can kill at very low %, has a good matchup on almost everyone in the game. He HAS to be top tier.
Toon Link - camp, priority, decent recovery, good combos, mind games, there is nothing bad about him.
Meta Knight- BEST recovery, godly priority, good matchups

High
Pit - good camper, two reflectors, priority, good recovery
Marth - he isnt top because he is slower and has harder time chaingrabbing. if you flame fine but i will be right in the end.
G&W - omg his smashes and frame times are incredible.
R.O.B - fantastic recovery, can WOP
Dedede - chaingrab is great, can actually camp, strong heavy and has good people vouching for him so ok.
Wolf - great smashes and tilts, has two ways to camp, fine matchups
Olimar - one of the best campers, ridiculous smash and tilts with range, but one of the worst recoveries will always keep him from top.
Falco - very nice gun, typical spacy advantages
Diddy - fast attacks, bananas and gun make him a pretty good camper
Lucas - very good recovery, good camping, pretty good matchups
Lucario - kinda unsure about this one but somewhere between high mid and mid high because of good specials and camping abilities.
Fox - most of his moves have been nerfed but still pretty good
Zero Suit Samus- very long range with attacks, an alright camper, can possibly combo
Ice Climbers- basically their spot varies according how the chaingrab turns out to work

Mid
Pikachu - very good matchups
Zelda/Shiek - it makes as much since to include these apart as it does pokemon trainer. shieks been nerfed a lot but zelda is actually good now.
Mario - defines the average in every conceivable way
Ness - solid character, stronger than in melee but bad recovery
Kirby - stronger now but specials suck
Pokemon Trainer- it makes no since to include them apart, squirtle is good, charizard is ok, ivysaur is bad, evens out.
Luigi - dont know much about him so I could be wrong
Peach - nerfed but not so bad, has some interesting adv techs and recovery still very good.
Samus - misssiles and bombs have been nerfed some, but still good enough for mid

Low
Sonic - aweful priority, no finisher, but speed and recovery make him top of low and maybe even low mid if something is discovered.
Yoshi - probably not as bad as his rep but still pretty bad. STILL cannot jump out of shield.
Donkey Kong - i admit i dont know much about him but he doesnt look that much better.
Wario - good recovery but everything else *****
Bowser - pretty bad, just like before, but still barely useable
Jigglypufff - WOP castrated, very light, priority nerfed, favorite for worst special (up b) in game.

Bottom
falcon - my my how the mighty have fallen. his knee is much harder to pull off. slower, no camping, no range, bad priority, bad recovery. bad matchups against everyone almost.
Ganondorf - impossible to camp with, VERY slow makeshim easily punishable, **** priority, recovery nerfed.

Pikachu mid tier and Donkey Kong low tier? Yeah, no. -_-

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't think the "difficulty" of Captain Falcon's knee should be criteria for his tier placing. >_>

really? well, what else is he gonna kill with? In melee, the knee of justice accounted for 85% of his kills, and stomping was 10%. Theres next to no spiking in brawl, and the knee is nerfed. So there is no way to kill ppl, not to mention all of his moves have more knockback, which means that they cant combo into each other. So... no combos + no tech chasing + no KO's= crap character. the knee isnt the only reason for his tier placement, its just that what they've done to it is seen as a representation of everything else that theyve done to the character

 

[TehBo49]

Here's my updated list:

**TOP TIER**
Snake
Toon Link
Mr. G&W
Pikachu
Lucas
**HIGH TIER**
Falco
Meta Knight
Wolf
Olimar
ROB
Marth
**UPPER MIDDLE TIER**
Pit
King Dedede
Ice Climbers
Luigi
Kirby
ZSS
Ness
Zelda
**LOWER MIDDLE TIER**
Wario
Fox
Lucario
Samus
Diddy Kong
Squritle
Sheik
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
**LOW TIER**
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Mario
Donkey Kong
Peach
Bowser
Charizard
**BOTTOM TIER**
Sonic
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

I also added PT but kept the individual pokemon for specific rankings of those pokemon.

 

[pass the syrup]

Top:

Diddy Kong
Marth
Pit
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link


High:

Wolf
Pikachu
Lucas
Lucario
Falco
Dedede
Snake
MetaKnight


Mid:

Fox
Mario
Luigi
Zelda/Shiek
ROB
Sonic
Samus/Zamus
PT
Ike
Ice Climbers
Bowser


Low:

Ganondorf
C. Falcon
Yoshi
Ness
Olimar
Wario
Peach
Kirby


Bottom:

Link
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

the last two tier lists are moronic. kill yourselves.

EDIT: whoops, last THREE tier lists. my bad, got beat on post time by some know-nothing.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I don't like noobs that post tier lists that are at least 3000% wrong

I know how you feel, man

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Top:

Diddy Kong
Marth
Pit
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link


High:

Wolf
Pikachu
Lucas
Lucario
Falco
Dedede
Snake
MetaKnight


Mid:

Fox
Mario
Luigi
Zelda/Shiek
ROB
Sonic
Samus/Zamus
PT
Ike
Ice Climbers
Bowser


Low:

Ganondorf
C. Falcon
Yoshi
Ness
Olimar
Wario
Peach
Kirby


Bottom:

Link
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

Luigi, Olimar, and Donkey Kong need to be WAY up.

 

[§witch]

You think diddy is the best?! Not a chance bud. Not even close. Diddy is middle. Maybe high.

 

[LedZeppelin]

Why the hell must every noob post their own ****ty tier list?

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

The fact that you rate (Samus and Zamus) and (Zelda and Shiek) together shows that you don't understand all characters. Therefore the tier list is void.
Also shiek is middle tier while Zamus is high.

 

[BDawgPHD]

The fact that you rate (Samus and Zamus) and (Zelda and Shiek) together shows that you don't understand all characters, and this is the only reason the tier list is void. It has nothing to do with the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.

No sir, you're wrong......clearly he just doesn't have a clue altogether :3