Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[BDawgPHD]

Ivysaur gets gimped like nobody's business if you're not careful while using him. I played one of my friend's pokemon trainer, and I seriously had a struggle, except for ivysaur, when I just knocked that ****er off the stage and gimped his upB

 

[katanagash]

Shiek is top while Zelda's bottom? MK in bottom while Yoshi is mid? P Trainer in bottom while Mario is mid? And Ganondorf mid? I'm going to assume you came up with your list form playing your friends alone. Please explain your list.

Shiek still deserves her place in the top/high tier area because she hasn't changed too much from Melee. So maybe she did get a little bit nerfed but she's still very similar. Playing as Zelda is still a big gamble because her grab is still hesitant. Plus her area moves are still all or nothing when it comes to power.

Meta Knight is an incredible combo king, but he still lacks something called strength. And yes, even though he has a variety of recovery moves, his lack of strength means that it takes longer for him to get kills.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to get good with all the pokemon that Pokemon Trainer uses? Smash Dojo states that each character has individual stamina, which really annoys me. It's too hard to be forced to get good with 3 pokemon at once.

Mario is Mario. He is balanced; not too good and not too bad. Enough said about him

Ganon I like because of his incredible strength. He may be slow, but if you use his grabs right he can be a deadly man.

Just remember, there is no such thing as a bad character, but the characters still have some advantages over others. Alot of it depends on how they counter each other

 

[Zook]

Ivysaur gets gimped like nobody's business if you're not careful while using him. I played one of my friend's pokemon trainer, and I seriously had a struggle, except for ivysaur, when I just knocked that ****er off the stage and gimped his upB

Ugh, why does everyone hate Ivy so much? Sure, he may have the universally hated tether recovery, but that's his only downside. His grabs are awsome, down throw combos awsomely into Bullet seed, Stun Spore should be called 'Stunning Spore,' and he has a decent projectile. Ivy kills like it's no one's business. Ivy's only downfall is his airgame, and his fairs and bairs help keep gimpers at bay.

I don't find Squirtle particularly good, a faster Jigglypuff without the ability to fly. Still not bad though.

Charizard is interesting. He's the biggest and slowest, but also has the best running speed. Rock Smash is nasty, too. I need to experiment with him a bit more.

EDIT: PT's stamina doesn't matter, they never last 2 minutes anyways. And if they do, you're normally able to switch out if you get the about knocked far enough.

 

[2DLogic]

On that note, it's still very much shaped and determined by tournaments, so the only other way to try to determine it is for a handful of very skilled players to matchup a bunch of characters and duke it out and see what they come up with

I know what you mean, and yes, the list itself is very much shaped by tournament results, the tiers however aren't something that is made so much as they are discovered. That was poor wording on my part.

 

[I 0022 I]

Where do you guys think Snake will place on the tier list?

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ugh, why does everyone hate Ivy so much? Sure, he may have the universally hated tether recovery, but that's his only downside. His grabs are awsome, down throw combos awsomely into Bullet seed, Stun Spore should be called 'Stunning Spore,' and he has a decent projectile. Ivy kills like it's no one's business. Ivy's only downfall is his airgame, and his fairs and bairs help keep gimpers at bay.

I don't find Squirtle particularly good, a faster Jigglypuff without the ability to fly. Still not bad though.

Charizard is interesting. He's the biggest and slowest, but also has the best running speed. Rock Smash is nasty, too. I need to experiment with him a bit more.

EDIT: PT's stamina doesn't matter, they never last 2 minutes anyways. And if they do, you're normally able to switch out if you get the about knocked far enough.

I never said Ivysaur was bad, I just said you could get gimped if you weren't careful.

 

[Zook]

I never said Ivysaur was bad, I just said you could get gimped if you weren't careful.

I know, I just had to vent my Ivyfrustration somewhere. Alot of PT players dislike Ivy.

Ivy! AIVAY!!!

 

[NilliX]

Snake can play some brilliant games with his projectiles and various explosives. Also, his U-smash is a great way to catch opponents out.

Before I make any predictions though, i'll need to experiment with Snake a little, just to see what he can and can't do well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ugh, why does everyone hate Ivy so much? Sure, he may have the universally hated tether recovery, but that's his only downside. His grabs are awsome, down throw combos awsomely into Bullet seed, Stun Spore should be called 'Stunning Spore,' and he has a decent projectile. Ivy kills like it's no one's business. Ivy's only downfall is his airgame, and his fairs and bairs help keep gimpers at bay.

I agree. Ivy's strength is somewhat suprizing given his size. He's got decent range too, it's just that blasted recovery. He's also got a few problems with aerial battles like you mentioned, but they're not really that bad for him.

I don't find Squirtle particularly good, a faster Jigglypuff without the ability to fly. Still not bad though.

My friend Raistlin loves squirtle for that very reason. And have you seen shell dashing? He has a little bit of trouble killing, and watergun is a joke, but overall he's a pretty good character.

Charizard is interesting. He's the biggest and slowest, but also has the best running speed. Rock Smash is nasty, too. I need to experiment with him a bit more.

I was a little dissapointed that Charizard wasn't a little stronger (his down throw looks so menacing, but it only does 6%). He's a really good defensive tank though.


@BDawgPHD. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Sonic. I don't believe his speed advantage is so great that his disadvantages can be ignored, but that's just me.

 

[Snakeee]

Zero Suit Samus is WAY up there if you ask me. Her KO attacks are auto-sweetspot (Side B) and she can control the opponent by way of her stunning moves (Neutral B and Down A). She truly can combo as well!

Agreed
I think she will be upper mid at the least, but it's too early to really say now.

 

[TheNewExecutor]

Hello fellow people who know the awesomeness of Brawl. Assuming this wasn't previously mentioned, if the goal is to test how the character itself affects the outcome of a battle, it helps to keep all other variables the same (scientific method). For those who want to test character quality, how about pitting level 9 CPU's against each other? Yes, it's limited, but I'm sure some of the programming is common to all characters, like how computers block/grab/dodge. With repeated 1 vs 1 matches, are there characters that consistently win? How does that compare with the tier lists people have suggested? How about 2 vs 2 matches? How does this all vary by stage? Does CPU Snake display the same absolute dominance? (semi-kidding) It would be very interesting for people to show the results of this "research". At the very least, you'll have explored the variable of character in CPU matches. Several repeats of matches or high stock/time matches are needed to do this so if there are people up for this, split the work by character (one person test out Falcon, another Snake etc.) I'd do this myself by I only get to really play on breaks. Happy Brawling.

 

[katanagash]

Where do you guys think Snake will place on the tier list?

High Tier. If not, he'll definately be top of the middle. Trust me, he has alot of potential.

 

[M.K]

Shiek still deserves her place in the top/high tier area because she hasn't changed too much from Melee. So maybe she did get a little bit nerfed but she's still very similar. Playing as Zelda is still a big gamble because her grab is still hesitant. Plus her area moves are still all or nothing when it comes to power.

Meta Knight is an incredible combo king, but he still lacks something called strength. And yes, even though he has a variety of recovery moves, his lack of strength means that it takes longer for him to get kills.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to get good with all the pokemon that Pokemon Trainer uses? Smash Dojo states that each character has individual stamina, which really annoys me. It's too hard to be forced to get good with 3 pokemon at once.

Mario is Mario. He is balanced; not too good and not too bad. Enough said about him

Ganon I like because of his incredible strength. He may be slow, but if you use his grabs right he can be a deadly man.

Just remember, there is no such thing as a bad character, but the characters still have some advantages over others. Alot of it depends on how they counter each other

Wow, these are the most....

Did you play the game? Seriously, these sound like something we would have said a year ago. Just....no.

Sheik got nerfed, there are characters that can dominate Sheik. Zelda got major buffed in the form of Din's Fire and her awesome slow-mo kick. Her magic now hit-stuns like there is no tommorow.

Mario is no longer the staple middle character. Maybe in terms of weight and strength, but not compared to other characters. He is definetly better.

Ganondorf is a complete joke. Ok, so he is strong. That doesn't mean his attacks come out lightning fast! His strength comes at the heavy price of maneuverability.

 

[proddette]

Hello fellow people who know the awesomeness of Brawl. Assuming this wasn't previously mentioned, if the goal is to test how the character itself affects the outcome of a battle, it helps to keep all other variables the same (scientific method). For those who want to test character quality, how about pitting level 9 CPU's against each other? Yes, it's limited, but I'm sure some of the programming is common to all characters, like how computers block/grab/dodge. With repeated 1 vs 1 matches, are there characters that consistently win? How does that compare with the tier lists people have suggested? How about 2 vs 2 matches? How does this all vary by stage? Does CPU Snake display the same absolute dominance? (semi-kidding) It would be very interesting for people to show the results of this "research". At the very least, you'll have explored the variable of character in CPU matches. Several repeats of matches or high stock/time matches are needed to do this so if there are people up for this, split the work by character (one person test out Falcon, another Snake etc.) I'd do this myself by I only get to really play on breaks. Happy Brawling.

That would test what is best in terms of the CPU, not in terms of metagame. CPU opponents don't know the advanced techniques most competitors use.

 

[keeper]

In regards to the SRK tier list, you spelled "Pikmin" wrong. It's not "Pikman". x_x

As for the tier list discussions, they're kind of funny to read and I really find it funny that people don't think MK can KO. He can easily WoP and follow people off the stage, edgehog, stage spike, and among other things, his Dsmash KOs fairly well compared to some attacks.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Im personally not a great Olimar player, but it's quite evident to me and most people that he's high tier +

The one thing about him is edge hogging, and you have to pay attention to what Pikmin you have, such as: Blue Pikmin = go for a grab. Red, Yellow = Multi purpose, just do what ever suits situation, And Purple = Smash attack or Air attack for a KO. White is usually the worst, its only good for pikmin throw.

Even though if you follow this strategy you can become very predictable, but knowing that the opponent will think this about how you play, you should change during the fight.

 

[ldxazamb]

I think Meta is the top teir anyone agree with that???

 

[Olimadeu]

i think olimar should deffinatly be up there but not the highest he is no fox in Melee

 

[Olimadeu]

Olimar, Wolf, Diddy Kong all seem good but i don't know who would be the top tier

 

[Grandeza]

I think Diddy will be high tier for sure. He's fast, nice ko ability, amazing mindgames(nanners ftw). The only thing is his gimp able recovery and ability to use nanners against him. I think he's a solid high tier.

 

[Corner-Trap]

As I said, the bottom tier either won't exist or won't be horrible as was the bottom tier of Melee, so if you want to be politically correct and say the bottom tier has to exist, keep in mind what I said. Also, I'm confident that I'm better than every single player at SRK, despite the fact that I don't know any of them, and that I'd probably beat all of you all the time. And being one of the more knowledgeable brawlers out there, I'd say unless you present a tier that actually makes some sort of sense, you better welcome criticism, especially from someone who has half a clue.

So screw you Corner-trap and 2Dlogic, screw you.

As for the SMASHBOARDS COMMUNITY, I love you guys :-P and if you know what you're talking about, I respect you, and if not.....well, what's my respect worth anyway

I'm eventually gonna try to muscle out a tier and explanations for locations, and you guys can critique me and we can argue it out. If you think you have a good tier, I encourage you to do the same....(it'll save me a lot of work XD)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151625

Here's nearly everyone's Brawl codes, so if you think you can beat us, then put it to the test. You truly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151625

Here's nearly everyone's Brawl codes, so if you think you can beat us, then put it to the test. You truly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Oh Snap its on!

 

[DQP]

lucas for top tier!

 

[billythegoat]

olimar is far to gimp-able and has way to low of priority to ever be top tier, but i can agree that he is high tier material.

 

[ellelaby]

Olimar is probably top tier with Diddy Kong (very fast, quick moves and gret resistance), Falco (great shine, fast moves, great spiker and great prjectiles), Lucas (if you get used to him very well he can be very damaging), Ike and Marth (both very good swords masters) and Link and Mario are also very good players.

You may have different opinions but these are mine. Pit and Meta Knight may also be in there.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Olimar is probably top tier with Diddy Kong (very fast, quick moves and gret resistance), Falco (great shine, fast moves, great spiker and great prjectiles), Lucas (if you get used to him very well he can be very damaging), Ike and Marth (both very good swords masters) and Link and Mario are also very good players.

You may have different opinions but these are mine. Pit and Meta Knight may also be in there.

MAY be in there? Pit and Meta Knight are WAY better than Link. And I'm not saying that from being a fanboy. Link is one of my mains. Pit and Meta Knight are definitely high tier.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Oh Snap its on!

**** straight it's on.

lucas for high tier!

fixed.

olimar is far to gimp-able and has way to low of priority to ever be top tier, but i can agree that he is high tier material.

Yes Olimar should stay high-tier, but not for the reasons you listed. His recovery is very gimpable, but thats why you pick stages with walk off ledges so that won't be exploited. Melee and 64 have both shown us that bad recovery can be made up with incredible on-stage power. Just look at that top tiers in those games including Ness, Fox, and Falco. Also, Olimar's priority is incredibly good, so I don't know why you think it's low.

Olimar is probably top tier with Diddy Kong (very fast, quick moves and gret resistance), Falco (great shine, fast moves, great spiker and great prjectiles), Lucas (if you get used to him very well he can be very damaging), Ike and Marth (both very good swords masters) and Link and Mario are also very good players.

You may have different opinions but these are mine. Pit and Meta Knight may also be in there.

Neither Olimar, Diddy, or Lucas should be top tier, just high tier. Ike is probably mid tier, because of how exploitable his weaknesses are. Link and Mario are more than likely going to be low or bottom tier. Not because they're bad, but more because they don't stack up with the rest of the characters. But I do agree with you that Falco, Marth, Pit, and MK could be top tier.

 

[orintemple]

I'm guessing Marth and Pit for sure. That will probably be the entire top tier. Then we will have a lot of uppers and middles and few low/bottom.

 

[Tien2500]

Re Olimar. How exactly does he have low priority? Aside from his Nair all of his aerials have disjointed hitboxes. His smashes are basically short range projectiles. Do you know what priority is?

 

[smashbot226]

wolf is heavier, true, but is also much slower and has worse recovery

stronger? maybe on the whole yes, but fox and falco have some rdiculoiusly strong moves that wolf doesn't really have a super strong response for

so you say all ove his ground moves and aerials are better? yeah, not only is that bias, its also just plain wrong

even if his final smash were better, which it's not, that has nothing to do with teirs... otherwise sonic would rank MUCH higher

his shine isn't really better.... or, at least, not substantially so... It haz about 0 killing potential.

his Fsmash is a terrible finisher... It might actually be worse than both foxes and falco's all it's got over theirs is range

his combos are ok, maybe, but they've got nothing on falco, who is clearly the best of the three.... wolf is really nothing special

I'll admit his recovery is bad. Are the other spacers' recoveries any better?

I wouldn't exactly call Falco... the BEST per se, but he is very good. His spike, SHL, and other such advantages give him a good boost.

The problem: he's as light as a feather with the hitting power to match.

Wolf's Dair spikes, as well as his Side-B, with some sweet-spotting.

Also, his Fsmash is a great move for finishing. It's safe if the foe blocks it, as he nearly goes through the shield, and does so at point blank range, meaning you can't grab him out of it.

Can't say the same for Falco or Fox, can ya?

As for shine: That's silly. You really think I wouldn't know about the shine's killing potential?

Let's be frank: NONE of the shines have killing potential, unless you, like, edge guard with it!

His ground and aerial moves are very good, especially his tilts.

Bias? Maybe, my bias is with Diddy and ZSS. Wrong?

HELL NO.

 

[billythegoat]

I'm sorry I should have been more clear about Olimars low priority. His smash attacks have very low priority since the pikimin can only be his when seperated from olimar, and as you stated his smash attacks are short ranged projectiles; thus seperating the pikmin from olimar.e.x. oli f-smashes, oponent uses any attack, attacks colide and normally both attacks would cancel, but the pikmin gets hit, and the opponents attack plows strait through. So his smashes have low priority, now you also said the his nair has low priority, this is because he isn't using his pikmin, neither do his tilts so those also have very bad priority.
Summation: Olimar has very good priority except all of his smash attacks, all of his tilts, and one of his aerials; which leaves him with only 4 attacks with good priority. So.......when you say that he has good priority are sure you know what priority is? Or does it only take 4 moves with good priorty compared to the other 12 moves with completely sucky priority to deem a character with GOOD PRIORITY?
I in no way think that olimar is low or mid tier, I still consider him to be high tier. I simply think he has far too many "small issues" to be top.

 

[the_judge]

Diddy and Olimar will definitely fight 4 top.
They each have their small issues, but have so many strengths to top em.

Candidates to follow behind r Pit, Marth, TL, Falco, Snake.
Where would DK, Lucario, and D3 be placed?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I'm not going to waste everyone's time making an actual list, but I will speak about the characters I play.

First off is DeDeDe. I feel like he will be high, but has no chance at being top tier. His problem is that all his bad match-ups are with the other top and high characters. He has good range, the best grab game in the game, good edge-guarding, can combo fairly well, and is hard to kill(with exceptions). His problem is that he has alot of trouble playing against Falco, Pit, and Metaknight. And guess what, pretty much everyone plays as either Falco, Pit, or Metaknight.

I also play Zamus, and I think she belongs at the bottom of the high tier or the top of the mid. She has great combo potential, great recovery, yes I know tethers can be gimped but believe me she has plenty of solutions to that. She also has good range, and a couple of good KO moves. Her problem is that she really doesn't deal with projectiles very well, and her own projectile kind of sucks.

Last is Diddy. I love Diddy. Probably bottom of top tier or top of high, depends on how many characters are in each tier. He is fast, can combo without even trying, can kill in multiple ways, including straight KO's, edgeguarding and multiple spikes. His bannanas are amazing, and as for the peanuts, well a bad projectile is better than no projectile at all I guess. The only thing I don't like is that pretty much none of his throws are useful, and he has trouble against people who outrange him.

 

[-Mars-]

I see a lot of people putting Ike really high up in the tier list, and then I see Zelda way at the bottom, maybe I am a little biased ..... but why?

 

[orintemple]

I see a lot of people putting Ike really high up in the tier list, and then I see Zelda way at the bottom, maybe I am a little biased ..... but why?

That seems dumb, Zelda is really good. She is at least high mid tier. Zelda and Ike I feel will be roughly in the same tier area.

 

[Browny]

Broken as f**k tier:
Olimar

**** tier:
Toon link
Wolf
Zelda
Snake
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

Overall very good tier:
ROB
Luigi
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle
Mr. Game and watch
Diddy kong

Noob spamming cheap GOD I HATE THEM AND ALL WHO USE THEM tier:
Pit
Metaknight

Over-rated tier:
Ike
Lucas
Dedede
Marth
Falco
Fox
Peach

Under-rated tier:
Lucario
Sonic
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Samus
Ivysaur
Donkey Kong

Fail tier:
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Charizard
Pokemon Trainer as a whole
Mario
Wario

 

[Corigames]

I don't think that list has been influenced by anger at all...

 

[Grandeza]

That whole list belongs in garbage tier.

 

[DiasFlac]

I found it funny myself. Made my day. lol

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Broken as f**k tier:
Olimar

**** tier:
Toon link
Wolf
Zelda
Snake
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

Overall very good tier:
ROB
Luigi
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle
Mr. Game and watch
Diddy kong

Noob spamming cheap GOD I HATE THEM AND ALL WHO USE THEM tier:
Pit
Metaknight

Over-rated tier:
Ike
Lucas
Dedede
Marth
Falco
Fox
Peach

Under-rated tier:
Lucario
Sonic
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Samus
Ivysaur
Donkey Kong

Fail tier:
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Charizard
Pokemon Trainer as a whole
Mario
Wario

If only my sig could be this large...

I salute you sir.