Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[algandar88]

could sum 1 tell wat the tier list is based on

 

[Corner-Trap]

could sum 1 tell wat the tier list is based on

I'm not sure what other people base their tier lists on, but I base mine mostly on match-ups.

 

[Frown]

could sum 1 tell wat the tier list is based on

The characters' results in bigger tournaments. I have no idea who summarizes them.

 

[The_Dyne]

There have not been enough tourneys... the only "good" way to make a tier list right now is to base them on match ups.

 

[swim2007]

There have not been enough tourneys... the only "good" way to make a tier list right now is to base them on match ups.

thats why the thread with a character match-up chart, although probably half of it is incorrect, is more usefull than any tier list available atm

 

[ToastMAN]

i think megaman is mid tier, even though his copy ability is practically useless his overall game is average, i think he would be in the middle class of everything if mario wasnt in the game

 

[BDawgPHD]

I'm still trying to push for IC's to be higher, but I need more support on it. And Snake dominates so hard at close range that it's not even funny.



Why do people still think that the IC's need to get a grab to win? They're entire move set is so good that you can forget you even have grabs. And camping doesn't hurt the IC's since their approach is so good.



Bottom tier won't exist? One will always exist, it's just that in more balanced out games the difference will be more minimal. If you think SRK sucks at Brawl then you truly are ignorant, please don't comment on a community you know nothing about. If you want to take a shot at fixing our tier list then go ahead. I have nothing against you, but you truly are ignorant and arrogant.

I think IC's are sort of slow to use and vulnerable to spam, since you essentially have to keep both bodies safe while approaching, and something like Falco's lasers will have an easy time of getting at least one of them, and that desyncs them for a short time until the other twin catches up. I do believe that they have really strong attacks, and as long as the player they face isn't a fast spammer they have a great game to play with, but as I said, I can really only give you theory on IC's.

As I said, the bottom tier either won't exist or won't be horrible as was the bottom tier of Melee, so if you want to be politically correct and say the bottom tier has to exist, keep in mind what I said. Also, I'm confident that I'm better than every single player at SRK, despite the fact that I don't know any of them, and that I'd probably beat all of you all the time. And being one of the more knowledgeable brawlers out there, I'd say unless you present a tier that actually makes some sort of sense, you better welcome criticism, especially from someone who has half a clue.

So screw you Corner-trap and 2Dlogic, screw you.

As for the SMASHBOARDS COMMUNITY, I love you guys :-P and if you know what you're talking about, I respect you, and if not.....well, what's my respect worth anyway

I'm eventually gonna try to muscle out a tier and explanations for locations, and you guys can critique me and we can argue it out. If you think you have a good tier, I encourage you to do the same....(it'll save me a lot of work XD)

I think too many people are drinking Toon Link's Kool-Aid. I main Falcon and personally I am thankful when a Toon Link matchup comes my way. He is too easy to KO and can't reach for crap. Besides that he's ridiculously easy to edgeguard so you can get kills on him at around 40% if you know what you're doing.

Also I personally believe that Falcon is significantly better than Jigglypuff, Wario, DK, Bowser, Ganondorf and Yoshi. I would say that putting him in the same tier as them is not doing him justice (this is probably because a significant number of people making lists here have never even touched Falcon or seen a good one but since everyone thinks he is the worst character ever they'll just throw him on the bottom with the truly crappy characters).

Pikachu is probably high tier, not mid like some people have him. I also think that Ness is probably mid and not low tier.

DeDeDe, Snake, and Marth are all surefire top tiers. Kirby is probably closer to middle tier than high tier.

Just my two cents.

Toon Link seems pretty good to me, tell me how you do this edqeguard, because I'm not really aware of it, unless it's just "knock him out really really far." But TL has a lot of good spam and is strong and combo-ish, so I figure he should be in top tier.

Falcon is far far better than people think he is, because even good players just want to combo with him, and they can't, because he just doesn't do that anymore. His aerials are still great, he has more recovery options, and he still has a decent approach. I'd still only put him somewhere in the middle tier, since he doesn't have an epicly good approach, or his speed from Melee.

Pikachu is definitely top tier IMO, he has some minor spam with thundershock, he's fast, combos well, has a BETTER RECOVERY THAN IN SSB, his thunder kills at reasonably low percentages, and most of his attacks are just generally strong and ranged. Also, he doesn't really have lag to punish.

Ness's recovery sucks, but I suppose if you don't get knocked off you won't have a problem. I haven't played a great lot of him, but he seems pretty good if you already know how to play as him.

I think Kirby is probably top of mid tier, or bottom of high tier, just because he's like the Kirby of old, except he's in Brawl, so he's not broken. Dedede doesn't seem fast enough to be top tier, and I don't think his recovery is all it's cracked up to be....he has more options than most, but when compared to ROB or Meta Knight, his recovery just has aids, man...

All in all, this is an intelligent, well thought out....well...thought....this is the kind of person who should actually keep a thought when they have one....Corner-trap, when you have a thought, just let it go, man.

 

[Sonic XD]

i think megaman is mid tier, even though his copy ability is practically useless his overall game is average, i think he would be in the middle class of everything if mario wasnt in the game

I lol'd

Spoiler

10char

 

[Icege]

I see a lot of people posting what they think due to their limited personal experience while others say that tournaments will determine the tiers. I believe a lot of players here fail to understand how exactly a tier list comes to fruition. Maybe it's because Smash players are typically younger, or the community itself is young with a lot of casual players that don't quite grasp what creates tiers.

Tournaments are good for showing who're the better characters based off of what they can do, but they are by no means the Bible. Take Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection for instance: Devil Jin is the best character in the game. He's never won a significant tournament in the United States though. People here would attempt to argue that because of this, he isn't really the best character in the game.

Limited personal experience is a good basis to begin discussing tiers. However, most people here aren't looking to actually discuss their beliefs. Those that are, are not willing to be proven wrong. Somebody disagreeing receives one of the following responses:

a) You've never played against somebody that's good with a character. This person's character is sick.
b) You're a scrub
c) You're an idiot
d) Some insane theory fighter with the basis of us all being psychic as opposed to theory fighting based on a character's options in different situations

Both are valid ways to begin to form a tier list, but people have to be willing to be proven wrong. I have my own views on the tiers, and often discuss them with friends. We've got a decent general consensus so far on a few characters, but we also understand that we haven't played as/against a majority of the roster, so we're not entirely informed. We'll react with an initial response, and eagerly await more information.

I won't even go into the situation where there's a person that always downplays their character to try and prove that their character isn't that great when they clearly are.

tl;dr: Kids should learn and understand that discussion based off of a combined community experience without personal jabs is the only real way to flesh out a proper tier list that isn't permanent.

 

[swim2007]

I see a lot of people posting what they think due to their limited personal experience while others say that tournaments will determine the tiers. I believe a lot of players here fail to understand how exactly a tier list comes to fruition. Maybe it's because Smash players are typically younger, or the community itself is young with a lot of casual players that don't quite grasp what creates tiers.

Tournaments are good for showing who're the better characters based off of what they can do, but they are by no means the Bible. Take Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection for instance: Devil Jin is the best character in the game. He's never won a significant tournament in the United States though. People here would attempt to argue that because of this, he isn't really the best character in the game.

Limited personal experience is a good basis to begin discussing tiers. However, most people here aren't looking to actually discuss their beliefs. Those that are, are not willing to be proven wrong. Somebody disagreeing receives one of the following responses:

a) You've never played against somebody that's good with a character. This person's character is sick.
b) You're a scrub
c) You're an idiot
d) Some insane theory fighter with the basis of us all being psychic as opposed to theory fighting based on a character's options in different situations

Both are valid ways to begin to form a tier list, but people have to be willing to be proven wrong. I have my own views on the tiers, and often discuss them with friends. We've got a decent general consensus so far on a few characters, but we also understand that we haven't played as/against a majority of the roster, so we're not entirely informed. We'll react with an initial response, and eagerly await more information.

I won't even go into the situation where there's a person that always downplays their character to try and prove that their character isn't that great when they clearly are.

tl;dr: Kids should learn and understand that discussion based off of a combined community experience without personal jabs is the only real way to flesh out a proper tier list that isn't permanent.

good post, everone should have an open mind about tiers in the early stages here. People need to stop being so stuck up in their views and look at other possibilities. Lets face it, the game hasnt even been out for a month, no one knows for sure who is good and bad yet

 

[NilliX]

I don't understand what's so suck about Sonic. He's fast and he can combo, his recovery's really not that bad, and (for me) he can edgeguard like a beast.

I suppose it's just my personal experience, but I have a lot of fun playing as Sonic. Sure his reach and priority blow, but he really isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Just misunderstood...

 

[swim2007]

I don't understand what's so suck about Sonic. He's fast and he can combo, his recovery's really not that bad, and (for me) he can edgeguard like a beast.

I suppose it's just my personal experience, but I have a lot of fun playing as Sonic. Sure his reach and priority blow, but he really isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Just misunderstood...

good opinion! on the other hand though what people are saying and I do agree with most of them is that sonic has no KO ability. To be able to KO someone with sonic you must get them to a really high percentage because his attacks are all pretty weak. It is VERY hard to kill anyone with sonic who's percent is under 100

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't understand what's so suck about Sonic. He's fast and he can combo, his recovery's really not that bad, and (for me) he can edgeguard like a beast.

I suppose it's just my personal experience, but I have a lot of fun playing as Sonic. Sure his reach and priority blow, but he really isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Just misunderstood...

He has no kill moves, he can't actually combo (they can airdodge btw. They're getting caught in your combos because they don't know they can get out of them). His edgeguarding doesn't see much action because people are sent so high in brawl (with good DI) that he can't chase them (he can up B, but then he can't go that far off the stage). His priority is a big problem, because there are many characters who's attacks come out just as fast, if not faster than his. Believe it or not, Sonic's attack speed sucks.

I'd see him mid tier at best from his few redeming qualities. His side B has invincibility on startup, his dash is really fast and the ending dash animation has very little lag. His f-smash has decent range and he's a prime candidate for stutter stepping. He's back and up throws are good for positioning opponents and his up B has a lot of combat usablility. All these things are great, but it's just not enough to offset his disadvantages. If you were to slap this exact same Sonic (lag times included) in melee, he's just do so much better due to more usefull edgeguards, more hitstun on attacks, more use for his insane vertical recovery, and less time in the air (which means more time on the ground). Then you add melee's advance techniques and you've got yourself a great character.

I miss melee. Brawl's cool, but I liked melee better.

 

[pass the syrup]

I haven't found any character who is really good against Diddy. Most of the matchups are either in the favor of Diddy or evenly matched. I have killed any space animals that have come my way easily with him.

 

[2DLogic]

Don't agree with something? Don't discuss why, just call it "n00b", "stupid", or say it "sucks at the game"!

Also, I'm confident that I'm better than every single player at SRK, despite the fact that I don't know any of them, and that I'd probably beat all of you all the time. And being one of the more knowledgeable brawlers out there, I'd say unless you present a tier that actually makes some sort of sense, you better welcome criticism, especially from someone who has half a clue.

So screw you Corner-trap and 2Dlogic, screw you.

Thank you for proving my point. I'll leave you to bask in your ill informed arrogance now.

Icege, well said.
Sonic Wave, pretty accurate analysis of Sonic. If you looked at his f-smash from a damage and knockback standpoint alone you'd have a decent killing move, but then his priority comes into play. As you said his attack speed is slow, but from what I've seen his biggest problem is that he gets eaten alive by a disjointed hitbox, which there are many of in this game.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Sonic has limited killing power, so you have to be like gimpyfish and mind**** people into getting hit with a bair or an fsmash. Other than that, as a 1v1 character Sonic is excellent, especially for, say, an ex-Falcon main.

P.S. I play against a lot of great brawlers, so until you prove you're worth something, you're not.....that's the advantage of knowing...

 

[DiasFlac]

Sonic is better then some of you may think.

 

[WaffleJesse]

I miss melee. Brawl's cool, but I liked melee better.

Oh great another one of you....

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic has limited killing power, so you have to be like gimpyfish and mind**** people into getting hit with a bair or an fsmash. Other than that, as a 1v1 character Sonic is excellent, especially for, say, an ex-Falcon main.

P.S. I play against a lot of great brawlers, so until you prove you're worth something, you're not.....that's the advantage of knowing...

Oh really, well who do you play against? Sonic has trouble in a lot of matchups, which would lead you to assume he's not that good. The brawl physics system itself is what's making Sonic bad, not his actual stats. It's how his stats play into the physics system. He's got low killing power, but in melee his edgeguarding would be more than enough to kill opponents. He's got low power and low priority, but in melee he would've been a combo machine. The problem is...this is not melee, and by brawl standards he's just not up to par. He's playable, so that can attest for him being maybe middle tier (certainly better than Bowser), but the other characters are just better than him. You may say he's good, but if the other characters are better, then in relation to them he's bad. Compare Sonic to Pit, Olimar, Toon Link, Ike, Snake, Game and Watch, Luigi, ect and you'll see his shortcommings.

Oh great another one of you....

So it's a crime to say that I prefer a faster paced game over a slower paced one? Does that somehow make the rest of my statement invalid?

 

[NilliX]

I see what you mean. I suppose once my mates get to a higher standard of playing, i'll come to realise Sonic's mediocrity. But who knows, I might be able to work on his weaknesses from there.

Either that, or go back to MK and Wolf, who I just can't seem to get the hang of for some reason.

I don't know why, because the Spacey seems to be really powerful, but I just can't get to grips with him, and using him feels really awkward. It's like I WANT to progress with him, but I just fall on my face when I try.

Very strange.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You don't have to quit playing Sonic, only know that you've got some work cut out for you. I main Sonic myself, but I realized that he has quite a few flaws. As such I've adjusted my style to hide his weaknesses as much as possible, and made sure to play secondary characters who require less work to maintain but at the same time can effectively take on Sonic counters (I second Marth and Ike, and Pit's my anti camper guy.)

 

[Sonic XD]

I want to know what all of you think about R.O.B. He is a character that is not discussed in the tier lists often. I think hes high tier or top tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Oh really, well who do you play against? Sonic has trouble in a lot of matchups, which would lead you to assume he's not that good. The brawl physics system itself is what's making Sonic bad, not his actual stats. It's how his stats play into the physics system. He's got low killing power, but in melee his edgeguarding would be more than enough to kill opponents. He's got low power and low priority, but in melee he would've been a combo machine. The problem is...this is not melee, and by brawl standards he's just not up to par. He's playable, so that can attest for him being maybe middle tier (certainly better than Bowser), but the other characters are just better than him. You may say he's good, but if the other characters are better, then in relation to them he's bad. Compare Sonic to Pit, Olimar, Toon Link, Ike, Snake, Game and Watch, Luigi, ect and you'll see his shortcommings.



So it's a crime to say that I prefer a faster paced game over a slower paced one? Does that somehow make the rest of my statement invalid?

Thank you for going out of your way to say something I didn't already know.

I never said it was Melee. Actually, Sonic's ability to chase makes him pretty good, he's the Captain Falcon of Brawl, minus power, minus proneness to getting gimped, and minus some range. Sonic needs to be unpredictable and take advantage of his gross speed in order to succeed, and he can do that. I don't main Sonic, but I've used him, and those things matter a lot.....you don't need to combo, which is good because you can't....you just need to chase and be unpredictable. I like the matchup against Ike for sure. The only ones that bother me are Pit and Toon Link, actually.

Also, if you like Melee better, go play Melee :-P People will look down on you for reminiscing about Melee in the Brawl forum, so make of it what you will.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

ROB is most likelt top, or high high tier. He has good power, cecent speed, grezt priority and decent projectiles. And that amazing recovery

 

[BDawgPHD]

I want to know what all of you think about R.O.B. He is a character that is not discussed in the tier lists often. I think hes high tier or top tier.

R.O.B. has a lot of potential for being top of high tier/in top tier if you ask me. He's not overwhelmingly fast, yet he's a comfortable speed....all of his attacks are pretty useful...his dair spikes and stops him in midair, his nair is a good killer, his tilts are good spacers/have good knockback, his laser is just awesome, his top is a good killer, his recovery is second only to Meta Knight (i think), and he's just generally strong.

Anyone else want to add/fix something?

 

[Griffard]

R.O.B. has a lot of potential for being top of high tier/in top tier if you ask me. He's not overwhelmingly fast, yet he's a comfortable speed....all of his attacks are pretty useful...his dair spikes and stops him in midair, his nair is a good killer, his tilts are good spacers/have good knockback, his laser is just awesome, his top is a good killer, his recovery is second only to Meta Knight (i think), and he's just generally strong.

Anyone else want to add/fix something?

i would agree with you on everything, except i believe he has the best recovery in the game, as you can on and off his up-b so it gets 3 times the distance.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I never said it was Melee. Actually, Sonic's ability to chase makes him pretty good, he's the Captain Falcon of Brawl, minus power, minus proneness to getting gimped, and minus some range. Sonic needs to be unpredictable and take advantage of his gross speed in order to succeed, and he can do that. I don't main Sonic, but I've used him, and those things matter a lot.....you don't need to combo, which is good because you can't....you just need to chase and be unpredictable. I like the matchup against Ike for sure. The only ones that bother me are Pit and Toon Link, actually.

I said that Sonic would be low or mid tier because a lot of characters are just better than him. I mentioned those characters not for their matchups against Sonic specifically, but because overall they're better characters.

The major problem with Sonic is that he's simply got too little range. You said yourself that you don't main Sonic.

In order to compete you have to be unpredictable and take advantage of his gross speed, but this in no way will guarantee you success, or at least not to the degree that you can get playing other characters. They matter a lot because that's all he has going for him. You act as if somehow being unpredictable does not apply to all characters or all games in general. Anyone can say "you just need to be unpredictable" but that's not really a character trait but a player trait instead. I said that Sonic is not good as a character. I never said that a Sonic player can't be good, which is what you seem to have interpreted my post as.

Also, you can't play a game without liking another one better? I like Naruto GNT4 a lot too. I love watching Guilty Gear matches (though I don't own a PS2 so I rarely get to play). Naruto Ultimate Ninja 3 came out and I'm thinking of getting a PS2 simply because of some of the Narutimate Hero 3 matches I've seen (the japanese counterpart that came out far before it reached the U.S.)

 

[St. Viers]

re: sonic. His only strength is character speed. He has average attack speed, no super strong attacks, his throws do even less than most other peoples...

BDawg, you forget that most of falcon's attacks had great hitboxes (think of his up-air, n-air, b-air). Sonic's attacks have much smaller hitboxes, meaning he's nowhere as goo in the air as falcon was.

re: R.O.B.
I would say he is a very good character. He has decent range (though not disjointed), great aerials, fast tilts, kill moves, and ways to rack up damage. He can also edgeguard better than most, though that is limited worth in this game

@griffard, you forget that MK has 2 glides, plus 5 jumps

 

[NilliX]

You don't have to quit playing Sonic, only know that you've got some work cut out for you.

Oh i'm never going to give the little guy up. He's an absolute blast to play, and i'm sure I can squeeze the goodness out of him and round off the short-fallings through experimenting with different play-styles. I'm really looking forward to really getting into Sonic's game, because i'm sure that he can be truly great. I said exactly the same about Roy, and while I wasn't totally correct about it, I still have a blast playing him.

I want to know what all of you think about R.O.B. He is a character that is not discussed in the tier lists often. I think hes high tier or top tier.

R.O.B is my unexpected brilliance. I was looking into characters like Wolf, MK and such to find my best character, but the robot just really clicks with me.

He isn't really fast, which disagrees with my Fox in Melee.
He uses projectiles, something that I couldn't get to grips with in Melee.
I don't see why I should love him and gel so well with him, because there's no sense in it when you consider my Smash past. But he just works so well for me.

From a tier-list Point-of-view, he's up there with the best of them.
Nice and heavy, but with a great, no, an amazing recovery at the same time.
While suffering from some start-up lag, his attacks have good priority,
His air-game, once you get the timing right, can be pretty devastating, especially with his Nair.
Lazor-vishun is fast and has some decent knock-back, and while the gyro takes longer to power up to max, it's got some good physics and damage capability. A possible candidate for epic mindgames.

 

[St. Viers]

^^^his f-air lags? I think you mean that either his attacks are quick, OR they have great priority

 

[BDawgPHD]

I said that Sonic would be low or mid tier because a lot of characters are just better than him. I mentioned those characters not for their matchups against Sonic specifically, but because overall they're better characters.

The major problem with Sonic is that he's simply got too little range. You said yourself that you don't main Sonic.

In order to compete you have to be unpredictable and take advantage of his gross speed, but this in no way will guarantee you success, or at least not to the degree that you can get playing other characters. They matter a lot because that's all he has going for him. You act as if somehow being unpredictable does not apply to all characters or all games in general. Anyone can say "you just need to be unpredictable" but that's not really a character trait but a player trait instead. I said that Sonic is not good as a character. I never said that a Sonic player can't be good, which is what you seem to have interpreted my post as.

Also, you can't play a game without liking another one better? I like Naruto GNT4 a lot too. I love watching Guilty Gear matches (though I don't own a PS2 so I rarely get to play). Naruto Ultimate Ninja 3 came out and I'm thinking of getting a PS2 simply because of some of the Narutimate Hero 3 matches I've seen (the japanese counterpart that came out far before it reached the U.S.)

Most people come into Brawl forums and go "o**** i liked melee cuz blah blah blah blah." You didn't do that, but you have to understand that people will complain when you start talking about how you like Melee better. Also, I don't give a flying **** what games you like, we're talking about Brawl, so get on topic.

I don't know why you're limiting your discussion to character traits. The tiers denote the success players have in tournaments with certain characters. Keeping that in mind, you have to take into account what a good player can be with certain characters. Maybe you just didn't understand what a tier was. Also, unpredictability for a fast character like Sonic is FAR MORE DEADLY than with just any old character. When a fast character can control literally every avenue of escape, your choices are attack or shield/dodge. A good player will force his opponent to do something, and then react accordingly....or guess what his opponent will do and act accordingly. This is intensively easy with Sonic, whereas with slower characters you have to do far more predicting.

Viers: True, but Sonic is so fast that his grabs almost get a "range boost". Considering the floatiness of Brawl, I think a good Sonic can take control of a battle well enough. He won't have the control Falcon did, but he's better than people know how to use him. In my defense, I mentioned that he didn't have Falcon's range Also, his dthrow is beast, it's very easy to chase, so forget about having to get a great damaging throw like, I don't know...say....Meta Knight

Speaking of Meta Knight, he has 5 jumps and 2 glides....his glide can actually gain height if you dip and rise correctly....he can fly around under the stage without fear of messing it up and dying, he has plenty of jumps to edgeguard, and recover if he messes up, his upB resets when he's hit, and he doesn't go into special fall when using his normal glide (that is, not the shuttle loop glide)....he has the best recovery in the game, compared to ROB, who has two jumps and his sweetass upB. ROB's upB isn't reset by getting hit, so if you edgeguard him long enough, he'll get gimped.

 

[NilliX]

^^^his f-air lags? I think you mean that either his attacks are quick, OR they have great priority

Ah, I used the wrong words again...

His Fair lags, but has great knockback. I just use it in all air situations these days.

 

[M.K]

Zero Suit Samus is WAY up there if you ask me. Her KO attacks are auto-sweetspot (Side B) and she can control the opponent by way of her stunning moves (Neutral B and Down A). She truly can combo as well!

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't know why you're limiting your discussion to character traits. The tiers denote the success players have in tournaments with certain characters.

No, the tiers denote how good the characters are in relation to each other based off of tournament results. This also assumes that both players are of equal skill level meaning that "being unpredictable" applies to your opponent just as much as it does you.

Keeping that in mind, you have to take into account what a good player can be with certain characters. Maybe you just didn't understand what a tier was.

It seems as if you are the one who does not quite understand. I'm assuming that both players are of equal skill and that both players are fully aware of Sonic's speed, not just the Sonic player. The opponent should have a detailed understanding of how to fight Sonic, just as you have a detailed understanding of how to fight with Sonic. You know Sonic's general gameplan, but so does your opponent. Sonic is not so fast that it's impossible to react to his attacks. Sonic's attacks are not that fast and have low priority, so they're easy to interupt. That is the problem. Sonic lacks a good approach, but at the same time he's not that good at camping. It's hard to play defense when they opponent refuses to go on the offense.

Also, unpredictability for a fast character like Sonic is FAR MORE DEADLY than with just any old character.

So unpredictability with Ike is not just as good? Unpredictability with Sonic is actually not as good, because being unpredictable just means you land more hits. Landing more hits with Ike has a much greater impact than landing more hits with Sonic doesn't it. How about being unpredictable with Marth, or Rob, or Pikachu? Sonic has trouble racking damage because his moves are weak and he has to rely on single hits since he can't combo. It's an uphill battle, which means that as a character Sonic is not as good.

When a fast character can control literally every avenue of escape, your choices are attack or shield/dodge.

Or they could just let down their shield and attack you with a high priority move. Or they could just shield grab you. Or they could take the hit and attack you back afterwards. Or they could just spam projectiles and then do one of the above when you get close.

A good player will force his opponent to do something, and then react accordingly....or guess what his opponent will do and act accordingly.

Sonic does not have the attack speed or priority neccesary to do that effectively. Most of the time he will simply be out ranged or shielded. A good player will realize that with Sonic's limited approach options they'd rather not attack and be punished by one of Sonic's more powerful moves, but instead wait for Sonic to close the gap between them and either trade hits or beat out his attacks.

This is intensively easy with Sonic, whereas with slower characters you have to do far more predicting.

Yeah, but when you've got power and range like Ike, along with a reliable approach method, it doesn't take that many correct guesses to kill an opponent.

Viers: True, but Sonic is so fast that his grabs almost get a "range boost".

And yet the most you can hope for from a grab is a guessing game. His d-throw is good, but not comparable to Olimar's great grab combos, or DDD's, Ice Climber's, and Falco's chainthrows.

Considering the floatiness of Brawl, I think a good Sonic can take control of a battle well enough.

The floatiness hinders him more than it helps, because it forces you to stay in the air longer. Sonic needs to be on the ground to be effective, as you should notice his aerials neither chain nor do that much damage to his opponents, and they are outprioritized by the majority of the cast.

He won't have the control Falcon did, but he's better than people know how to use him.

He doesn't have the control, or the power, or the range. His recovery is good, but he can't kill.

Sonic does have his upsides, but he's not good when compared to most of the cast. Can you honestly say that he's better overall than Metaknight, Kirby, Pikachu, Ike, Pit, R.O.B, Game and Watch, Marth, Luigi, Mario, Squirtle, Lucario, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Wario, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Zamus, Zelda, Toon Link, Olimar, and Snake? Well, that's the half of the roster I'm talking about when I say that he's not as good.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Well, I more or less disagree with your entire line of thinking, not to mention that you're wrong about tiers, and you're not going to give in to reason, so I won't bother arguing with you.

Meta-Kirby: I don't know zero suit samus very well, but I've seen her played a bit, she's pretty good....I don't know where to place her, though.

EDIT: Also, As unpredictable as Ike can be, and as effective as each strike is for him, there's a certain way to play him that maximizes your ability to predict his attacks and be able to react accordingly....Sonic is so fast that you have to have considerably faster reflexes to react, and in some cases it just might not be possible.

 

[Conda]

Sonic can be unpredictable... until he neds to kill. Then he has to try and land one of two moves.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Then what is your definition of tiers.

Here's my definition.

Tiers are a list of characters ranking them from best to worst. This ranking shows how good they are in relation to each other based off of how well they place in tournaments.

Care to enlighten me with a more accurate definition.

You and I disagree on what character traits are most important. I believe that speed alone is not as important as range and power combined, both of which Sonic lack. Unpredictability does not require your character to be very fast, as you only need enough speed to successfully punish.

 

[2DLogic]

BDawgPHD, actually Sonic Wave's understanding of what a tier list is more correct than what you offered here:

The tiers denote the success players have in tournaments with certain characters. Keeping that in mind, you have to take into account what a good player can be with certain characters.

By definition a tier list is a ranking of a character's potential to win. They have nothing to do with how good a certain player is with a character and they are not determined or "denoted" by tournament results; accurate tier lists are however, often reflected or "connoted" by tournament results.
I know I said I was done with this and would leave you to bask, but I really think things like this are why there are so many misunderstandings and petty bickering. If people are going to debate something they should at least know what they're debating.

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawgPHD, actually Sonic Wave's understanding of what a tier list is more correct than what you offered here:

By definition a tier list is a ranking of a character's potential to win. They have nothing to do with how good a certain player is with a character and they are not determined or "denoted" by tournament results; accurate tier lists are however, often reflected or "connoted" by tournament results.
I know I said I was done with this and would leave you to bask, but I really think things like this are why there are so many misunderstandings and petty bickering. If people are going to debate something they should at least know what they're debating.

Fair enough, I think this is a more accurate way of saying what a tier list is. On that note, it's still very much shaped and determined by tournaments, so the only other way to try to determine it is for a handful of very skilled players to matchup a bunch of characters and duke it out and see what they come up with

 

[Zook]

I see Sonic in Low teir. Sure, he's fast (because you're too slow), but there isn't enough interest in him to bring him up to Middle. And he really isn't all-around good....

However, I predict a few monsterous Sonics out there, like the Yoshis of Melee.

How do you guys feel about the Pokemon Trainer's individual Pokemon? I haven't seen much discussion about Squirtle, Ivy, and Charizard.