Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

ch0zen one speaks the truth.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

lets not discuss tiers now lets spend time moving foward

 

[Bobz]

i dunno about falco, but ddd has "trouble" with pit and metaknight in the sense that its a good fight, not like he is at some disadvantage...

people need to play chillin or jank's penguin, not to mention m2k ( who i havent played yet, and probably dont want to...)

 

[ScythedBlade]

*Gasp* Guess What I Found Out

holy crap, it's almost if every character has a different playing style ...

That said, especially since I've seen probably a lot, unlike Melee ... there is no tier list for this game at all ... (I still think Ganondorf is too much of a clone, though)

However, here's what you CAN make:

Gamer Popularity Usage Rate * Win/Total Ratio List!

Yea, and it'll have no effect on how good the characters are ...

 

[Frown]

Broken as f**k tier:
Olimar

**** tier:
Toon link
Wolf
Zelda
Snake
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

Overall very good tier:
ROB
Luigi
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle
Mr. Game and watch
Diddy kong

Noob spamming cheap GOD I HATE THEM AND ALL WHO USE THEM tier:
Pit
Metaknight

Over-rated tier:
Ike
Lucas
Dedede
Marth
Falco
Fox
Peach

Under-rated tier:
Lucario
Sonic
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Samus
Ivysaur
Donkey Kong

Fail tier:
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Charizard
Pokemon Trainer as a whole
Mario
Wario

Hey, that IS good!

 

[Medori Red]

I would like to state that I have no idea what
people think makes a top tier. I'm just going to use it for
the "cheap" characters that I don't want to fit into my idea
of what the tier list will look like. Since they seem to be a step
above the rest.

I'll provide an explanation for why I placed them for anyone who is curious. Also, the characters are not in any order, I don't think I should try that since I've not placed hour-upon-hour studying the gameplay.

-IDK Tier-
Pit~ Might be mid-tier, the fact that his up-b can be screwed over
by the slightest touch makes his recovery a little less than perfect.
Also, I believe the space animals(and anyone else with a reflector like special) have a definite advantage b/c of their reflectors.
Meta Knight~ I just don't know, he's the biggest pain in the *** I've had to deal with...
The only downside to this guy is his lack of weight.

-High Tier-
T.Link~ He is much faster than link, his sword hits like it was twice it's size, and his down sword is godly.
Marth~ His air game is simply too good, he has a counter, his recovery is decent for a fire emblem character. He flies without wings, COME ON...heh, just a joke I like to use.
Falco~ Meteors, meteors, meteors....nice gun, throws his reflector, hits pretty hard. Combos? Oh yeah, almost forgot, chain grabs & that weird gun glitch, bounce-bounce.
Fox~ Still got the quick gun for racking %, meteors, fast as hell, shine-to-hell.
Wolf~ He's essentially fox on steroids. Nice gun, with a bayonet? Yep. His side smash is disgusting.
Lucario~ %=more power. That's all I can think of, his recovery can be sweet if he manages a wall cling.
Mr. Game & Watch~ WTF. Yeah, I can't explain this one but he is too good.
Pikachu~ Can someone say lvl 100? They've made pikachu powerful as hell, his thunderbolt can kick you out the top of the level with no prob. Brawl Pikachu=Melee Peach with that electric spin he does. He also has a pretty good recovery.
R.O.B.~ Once again, WTF. This guy is the same as G&W, can't explain it just too good.
Zelda~ Zelda has been pumped up in general, I believe she will be somewhere around top tier or at least high-mid tier.

-Mid Tier-
Olimar~ I had trouble deciding for Olimar, he has serious potential, but he's lightweight which is bad, along with his crap recovery(Sometimes) I also see a downfall to his pikmin when facing a reflector...
C.Falcon~ Yep, still super fast, super strong, decent recovery, and now he can turn his Falcon Paanch around while in the air or on the ground...he is all around a sweet character.
Bowser~ I am a littly iffy about it, but he seems to be better so I'll throw him up into Mid Tier. His suicide dive gives him a nice way to end a stock match going 2-1 in bowsers favor. He hits **** hard, his flame is better, and his recovery is slightly better.
Ike~ Ike is a monster worthy of Top-Tier, but until someone can figure out what to do about that BS they call a recovery he plops his royal *** down in Mid Tier for me.
Kirby~ Great recovery, steals powers, up-sword spam ftw.
Link~ A bit slower, but good dmg, weapons ftw, decent recovery, bombs kill this time around.
Lucas~ Hits pretty hard with his up-smash, fire hurts pretty bad, can eat energy for breakfast and %.
Luigi~ Floats and hits hard, he's easy Mid-Tier if not better.
Mario~ Seeing as Mario is the all-around character with a little of everything, he will sit on Mid Tier with me until he proves to not just be the well-rounded character of choice.
ZSS~ Fast, Good Dmg, stun-spam, Tether recovery.
Snake~ Nice neutral-A combo, good recovery, explosives ftw.
Sonic~ Fastest character, hard to hit, homing attack, great recovery, and did I mention fast?
Wario~ Fastest of the heavy characters, godly recovery, can eat projectiles, has a bike...
Sheik~ Quick, good dmg racking with the needles.


This may be a little bias, b/c I have never seen an exceptionally good player of these characters.
-Mid~Low Tier-
Donkey Kong~ He seems a little on the downside when it comes to the fast characters.
Peach~ No reason except I haven't seen a good one.
Ice Climbers~ ^Same
Jigglypuff~^Ditto
Ness~ Compared to his blonde counter-part he falls a little short.
Pokemon Trainer~ PT looks good, but he seems too difficult to play, also the switch out leaves 'em open for a smash...or w/e the opponent wants to do to 'em for that matter.
Samus~ Again, no real reason...slower...
Yoshi~ I could never take a Yoshi seriously, so again no real reason.

-Bottom Tier-
Ganondorf~ Ok, I'm sorry to anyone who gets upset, I like Ganondorf as a character, but Ganondorf sucks in my opinion.
He is slow...he is heavy, he is easy pickings for any range..they still have him as a crappy C.Falc clone essentially.((Should've had a sword or something...maybe shoot magic, he's F***ing Ganondorf, make him better you Japanese *******s!!))
As far as I'm concerned, as he stands now he's a wasted character slot.

 

[KernelColonel]

Top Tier - Fox, Toon Link, Marth, Metaknight, Pit
Mid-High - Peach, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Snake, ZSS, Diddy Kong, Mario, ROB, Falco, Sonic, Wolf
Mid - Kirby, Samus, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Zelda/Sheik, C. Falcon, Pikachu, P.T., Ike, Lucas
Mid-Low - Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Wario, Link, Ness, Game and Watch, Bowser
Utter bottom - Ganondorf

Reasoning for Top Tier:
Fox is still mega fast and very strong, and his pew pew lzrs can be spammed three to a short hop. Toon Link has three very very useful projectiles combined with power, speed and WOP. Marth still has his approach and range and speed and strength. Metaknight has the gimpiest kills, incredible combo potential, broken Up-B tactics, and the most useful F-air approach in the game. Pit has the best projectile (in my opinion), and combines multiple jumps with quick attacks and reflectability...even has a few strong kill moves like his Bair.

Reasoning for Mid-High Tier:
These are all the characters that don't have everything necessary to have people win lots of tournaments with them. They are all very strong but have some shortcomings... Olimar's recovery, Peach's double jump, Lucario's weak base strength, Sonic's lack of power and projectiles, Snake's and Dedede's slowness, Falco's loss of speed. That, or not enough people will play with them so that they win tournaments (ROB, Mario, Wolf).

Middle Tier:
These are all characters with great strength but not enough of certain things. All of them lack strength, speed, and/or easiness to use. They have their own strengths that are worth playing with them, but their blatant shortcomings make it a little complicated.

Mid-Low Tier:
Kind of like the Middle tier but just less usable in general.

Utter bottom:
The only thing Ganondorf has is strength, and at what cost? From Melee he's lost everything people liked him for. His only buff is his >B which now ACTUALLY doubles as a recovery. His vB no longer gives him another jump which sucks. He can't cancel the lag on his slow aerials. His down-spike now has potential to NOT knock people down. His run speed now sucks complete balls instead of minor amounts of balls in Melee. His neutral-A is no longer his best close-combat option. In general, all he has is strenght. No speed, no range, no recovery, no projectiles, no good approach tactics...every other character is literally better than Ganondorf.


EDIT: Keep in mind that individual tactics for each character may not have yet been discovered. I know that when I discover something different about someone that I like to use them, like Sonic's spring spike or Ike's forward-Bair or Metaknight's reverse ^B. This list is based off of the characters at first glance in a vacuum.

Also keep in mind that I have an extremely heavy bias towards ROB because I seriously think he is the best character in the game. He has speed, insane projectiles, insane recovery, insane Bair and Dair and Nair, insane D-smash and great throws. I will indeed understand if you don't think he'll be higher tier (I would have put him in top tier if I thought lots of people would use him).

 

[Davimert]

Ok, for a temporary tier list, which (of course) probably won't be as well thought through as the first official tier list, I believe we should make it this way:
First we pick out the Characters that are widely accepted to be in a certain tier.
For example:
Top Tier (in no particular order):
Marth
Pit
Snake
Toon Link

Lower/Bottom (again, no particular order):
Bowser
Link
Yoshi
Ganondorf

The we've got the characters that are widely accepted to be strong, but of which people can't decide whether they are in Top or High tier, or maybe even High-mid tier.
These are:
Falco
Fox
Wolf
ROB
DeDeDe
G&W
Zelda
Olimar
ICs
Diddy Kong

Then there are some characters on which the opinions widely differ. Some say they are Top/High tier, some say Mid Tier/Lower Tier, others even say Bottom tier.
These are:
Metaknight
Sonic
Peach
Sheik
ZSS
C. Falcon
Wario

The others, not mentioned in my post, haven't really stood out in the discussion and will most likely be Mid/Lower/Bottom tier.

This is my view on a first temporarily Tiers List.

kthxbai.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'm sorry I should have been more clear about Olimars low priority. His smash attacks have very low priority since the pikimin can only be his when seperated from olimar, and as you stated his smash attacks are short ranged projectiles; thus seperating the pikmin from olimar.e.x. oli f-smashes, oponent uses any attack, attacks colide and normally both attacks would cancel, but the pikmin gets hit, and the opponents attack plows strait through. So his smashes have low priority, now you also said the his nair has low priority, this is because he isn't using his pikmin, neither do his tilts so those also have very bad priority.
Summation: Olimar has very good priority except all of his smash attacks, all of his tilts, and one of his aerials; which leaves him with only 4 attacks with good priority. So.......when you say that he has good priority are sure you know what priority is? Or does it only take 4 moves with good priorty compared to the other 12 moves with completely sucky priority to deem a character with GOOD PRIORITY?
I in no way think that olimar is low or mid tier, I still consider him to be high tier. I simply think he has far too many "small issues" to be top.

Have you actually tested out Olimar's priority? Only his tilts, and Nair have low priority. His smashes and the rest of his aerials can beat out or trade with a lot of other attacks, plus they're disjointed.

Diddy and Olimar will definitely fight 4 top.
They each have their small issues, but have so many strengths to top em.

Candidates to follow behind r Pit, Marth, TL, Falco, Snake.
Where would DK, Lucario, and D3 be placed?

Neither Diddy or Olimar will likely be top tier, just high tier. Not because they're bad in any way, just because other characters are better

I see a lot of people putting Ike really high up in the tier list, and then I see Zelda way at the bottom, maybe I am a little biased ..... but why?

Because they don't honestly know much about characters aside from the ones they play, so for the ones they don't, they just slap them into any tier they want to.

 

[Metro Knight]

I went to a tournament recently, and a Ness player won. We had 3 links in the quarter finals. I was playing Link, and I was the closest to beating the Ness player. The quarter finals consisted of
Link
Link
Link
Mario
Luigi
Diddy
Pit
Ness

I lost to the Ness. The Luigi and Pit both beat the other two Link players, and the Diddy was beat by a Mario player. I probably was the 2nd best player there next to Ness. I think Link and Ness are far to underrated of characters. Link has a Marth sized hitbox, and Ness has a monster grow game, sparkles, and.... more sparkles.... evil sparkles. In my area, the majority of top end players play Ness, and the only Professional player plays Ness. His backthrow kills at 100%, just about anywhere, in brawl that is pretty godly.

 

[Metro Knight]

Also, if you are convinced that Yoshi is really good, than post some videos that are better than the ones in the yoshi forum, I haven't seen a very impressive Yoshi video yet.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I think I need to add my two cents on a character people seem to be forgetting; Pokemon Trainer(PT).

It would seem that PT is being treated as 3 characters. Thats cool and all, but doesn't truly reflect PT's strength as a whole. The players who use him like him because of his flexibility for the most part. Sure, we all have a favourite Pokemon, but fundamentally, we all realize that against each character in the cast, one of our Pokemon will do better than the other two.

So, when you break down the P0kemon separately to look at how they do against the cast, that makes sense in one way. But, a good PT is never going to; A) Use the same Pokemon for the whole match or B) Use a Pokemon that plays poorly against his opponents character.

I'm never going to use my Charizard versus my opponents Spacies. I won't want to use my Ivysaur versus my opponents Metaknight. I won't like Squirtle versus Marth when I know I have better options.

But, a tier list with the Pokemon broken down makes the assumption that I will do these things. One might argue "The tier list would reflect that particular Pokemon's strength while it on the field, regardless of how long that is." That's great and all, but will give the community of poor reflection of the PT's strength I think.

I believe that we should analyze PT as a character as a whole. If I select him, with no starter, how would he place on the tier list? I would think he's at least high in this case, as regardless of the matchup, I have a Pokemon to match the situation, but he can't be top because he always needs to switch, leaving him vulnerable at least some of the match.

What do you guys think?

 

[Corner-Trap]

I think I need to add my two cents on a character people seem to be forgetting; Pokemon Trainer(PT).

It would seem that PT is being treated as 3 characters. Thats cool and all, but doesn't truly reflect PT's strength as a whole. The players who use him like him because of his flexibility for the most part. Sure, we all have a favourite Pokemon, but fundamentally, we all realize that against each character in the cast, one of our Pokemon will do better than the other two.

So, when you break down the P0kemon separately to look at how they do against the cast, that makes sense in one way. But, a good PT is never going to; A) Use the same Pokemon for the whole match or B) Use a Pokemon that plays poorly against his opponents character.

I'm never going to use my Charizard versus my opponents Spacies. I won't want to use my Ivysaur versus my opponents Metaknight. I won't like Squirtle versus Marth when I know I have better options.

But, a tier list with the Pokemon broken down makes the assumption that I will do these things. One might argue "The tier list would reflect that particular Pokemon's strength while it on the field, regardless of how long that is." That's great and all, but will give the community of poor reflection of the PT's strength I think.

I believe that we should analyze PT as a character as a whole. If I select him, with no starter, how would he place on the tier list? I would think he's at least high in this case, as regardless of the matchup, I have a Pokemon to match the situation, but he can't be top because he always needs to switch, leaving him vulnerable at least some of the match.

What do you guys think?

It's better to tier PT separately than as a whole. Say if charizard does well against one character, but ivysaur and squirtle does horrible against that character, so it wouldn't make sense to say that PT as a whole does well against that character if only charizard does well. Thats what makes PT so great because he literally is three different characters.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

you're still missing the point that tiering the pokemon trainer that way is a poor reflection of his actual potential.

you can't say "charizard does well against x character but the other two don't" because it DOESN'T MATTER. you have to use all three of the pokemon due to the fatigue system. anyone who splits up the pokemon trainer clearly doesn't understand the mechanics of the character.

 

[VersatileBJN]

^ Yes, but you also have to take into consideration switch out time.

Squritle is probably the best option vs Ike, so you start with him. If Squirtle is killed you now have switch now once, but TWICE to get back to Squirtle. Any Ike player worth anything is going to punish PT for switching out. Yes, you can knock them away to make switching out safe, but that means using Ivysaur or Charizard to some degree, potentially getting your percentage raised with them before getting back to Squirtle.

Because of this I feel PT should be tiered as one character. Even though certain pokemon do great vs certain characters, being forced to switch back has to be taken into the consideration.

Unless of course switching back is taken into consideration when doing each of the 3's tier, then my point is kind of worthless.

 

[VersatileBJN]

My post was directed towards corner-trap for the record.

Vulgar, I'd rather use a fatigued squirtle in a match up good for him than use a healthy Ivysaur in a match up that is awful for him. I'm sure most PT users would agree with me.

 

[Corner-Trap]

So does it honestly make sense to say that PT does well against Ike, when only squirtle does? You are forced to switch characters while playing PT, but the pokemon themselves are too different to be tiered as a collective whole. They are literally three different characters with different sets of match-ups.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I think I need to add my two cents on a character people seem to be forgetting; Pokemon Trainer(PT).

It would seem that PT is being treated as 3 characters. Thats cool and all, but doesn't truly reflect PT's strength as a whole. The players who use him like him because of his flexibility for the most part. Sure, we all have a favourite Pokemon, but fundamentally, we all realize that against each character in the cast, one of our Pokemon will do better than the other two.

So, when you break down the P0kemon separately to look at how they do against the cast, that makes sense in one way. But, a good PT is never going to; A) Use the same Pokemon for the whole match or B) Use a Pokemon that plays poorly against his opponents character.

I'm never going to use my Charizard versus my opponents Spacies. I won't want to use my Ivysaur versus my opponents Metaknight. I won't like Squirtle versus Marth when I know I have better options.

But, a tier list with the Pokemon broken down makes the assumption that I will do these things. One might argue "The tier list would reflect that particular Pokemon's strength while it on the field, regardless of how long that is." That's great and all, but will give the community of poor reflection of the PT's strength I think.

I believe that we should analyze PT as a character as a whole. If I select him, with no starter, how would he place on the tier list? I would think he's at least high in this case, as regardless of the matchup, I have a Pokemon to match the situation, but he can't be top because he always needs to switch, leaving him vulnerable at least some of the match.

What do you guys think?

This is a tough call, because most people use one character exclusively when using transformies....as of yet, we haven't seen a skilled player who actively switched between characters. Another thing to realize is that a good pokemon trainer might last longer than 2 minutes in a stock, meaning he might have to switch to another pokemon. Not to mention that you inevitably have to use all the pokemon at some point.

 

[Zook]

you can't say "charizard does well against x character but the other two don't" because it DOESN'T MATTER. you have to use all three of the pokemon due to the fatigue system. anyone who splits up the pokemon trainer clearly doesn't understand the mechanics of the character.

You don't play as PT much, do you?

Pokemon either A) die before the fatigue kicks in, or B) end up switching out just because. Most PT players I've seen switch out if they knock the opponent a good distance away to allow a safe switch-out.

It makes the most sense to individually tier characters.

 

[TheLake]

As a PT main I agree with Versatile. We dont give a crap about the fatigue status. Its very very important for a PT player to OPEN with the right pokemon for the appropriate matchup. If we cant however it makes things very difficult seeing how switching to the right pokemon offers sever punishment. Those who havent seen PTs abuse the down b in matches alot, know theres a reason for this. Its not as easy as it looks especially when your being pressured by your opponet. Bagh my awful spelling has plauged this thread long enough for now so thats just me throwing that in there.

I say continue rating PT as seperate characters. Putting just PT on the tier list doesnt make sense because in theory he doesnt have a bad matchup because each of his pokemon can counter any character so far.

 

[BDawgPHD]

As a PT main I agree with Versatile. We dont give a crap about the fatigue status. Its very very important for a PT player to OPEN with the right pokemon for the appropriate matchup. If we cant however it makes things very difficult seeing how switching to the right pokemon offers sever punishment. Those who havent seen PTs abuse the down b in matches alot, know theres a reason for this. Its not as easy as it looks especially when your being pressured by your opponet. Bagh my awful spelling has plauged this thread long enough for now so thats just me throwing that in there.

I say continue rating PT as seperate characters. Putting just PT on the tier list doesnt make sense because in theory he doesnt have a bad matchup because each of his pokemon can counter any character so far, except for Meta Knight.

I fixed it

 

[choknater]

djbrowny that is actually an excellent list. disagree with sheik, jiggs, olimar, but nice tier titles and placings LOL. "overrated" and "underrated" lists are all too true.

 

[FlareAlchemist]

I was honestly thinking about the PT thing the other night and thought it would be a good idea to do it both ways.

My initial reaction was to say they should be rated separately, because they are three different characters. And in that way, the list would have Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard, while the advantage/disadvantage chart would have Squirtle vs. X, Ivysaur vs. X, and Charizard vs. X. This all makes sense and all, only theres a couple of problems.

A good PT player knows you pretty much HAVE to switch out to win, and when you lose a life you switch. They are also aware of the stamina affect. These few things are what forces Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard into one character, Pokemon Trainer. Not to mention the fact that strategies will undoubtedly be developed by switching out while the opponent is preoccupied or recovering.

So, while it's important that we know each individual character's tier and each individual character's advantages or disadvantages against other characters, it's also important that we know where they stand together, as PT, against others.

 

[TheLake]

I fixed it

Oooh nice save

 

[pidgey14]

Also, if you are convinced that Yoshi is really good, than post some videos that are better than the ones in the yoshi forum, I haven't seen a very impressive Yoshi video yet.

check this Yoshi player out, and look at his matches.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Fraustdogger

there is also a Yoshi combo video in the Yoshi forums. I think you still haven't paid enough attention to Yoshi.

For all who STILL thinks Yoshi is the worst

If you wanna know how much Yoshi has changed, ask a pro, and stop thinking what Smashwiki says is always right. I speak to some pros, they have told me, and Yoshi has IMPROVED and gave me enough proof. The people on the Yoshi forum have been trying to show you how much Yoshi has improved but you keep replying "no DJC makes Yoshi useless". Stop ignoring them for once.

Stop trying to make brawl like Melee, give him as much practice as the other characters then you know how well he has improved.

P.S. If you ignore this, don't start screaming cuz you get owned by a Yoshi player.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

So does it honestly make sense to say that PT does well against Ike, when only squirtle does? You are forced to switch characters while playing PT, but the pokemon themselves are too different to be tiered as a collective whole. They are literally three different characters with different sets of match-ups.

Squirtle does very well against Ike, Ivysaur is about even, Charizard gets owned right?

So, playing with this knowledge, I keep Squirtle out as much as possible. When he dies Ivysaur comes out, and can hold his own until he dies OR I get a good chance to switch. Then I'm at Charizard, who generally sucks versus Ike. My goal then becomes landing a big enough hit to justify switching. This is easier with Charizard than it sounds, because he's such a stock tank and heavy hitter.

Overall, if I'm playing my Pokemon well, I should have Squirtle out 50%+ of the time, Ivysaur out 30% of the time, and Charizard around 20%. Overall, this will give me an advantage on the matchup.

PT's enter matchups with this mindset regardless of the character. We know which Pokemon compare to each character, if just on general type comparison (do I need speed, range or power?).

In some cases, we have trouble finding a good Pokemon. Metaknight is a great example, all three Pokemon do fairly evenly versus him. Even in this case, we still have more options than most characters. I use Squritle to be aggressive when ahead on stocks, Ivysaur when I'm feeling defensive. I use Charizard when I'm tanking a stock. Tactical flexibility is just as important as matchup switches with the PT as well.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Squirtle does very well against Ike, Ivysaur is about even, Charizard gets owned right?

So, playing with this knowledge, I keep Squirtle out as much as possible. When he dies Ivysaur comes out, and can hold his own until he dies OR I get a good chance to switch. Then I'm at Charizard, who generally sucks versus Ike. My goal then becomes landing a big enough hit to justify switching. This is easier with Charizard than it sounds, because he's such a stock tank and heavy hitter.

Overall, if I'm playing my Pokemon well, I should have Squirtle out 50%+ of the time, Ivysaur out 30% of the time, and Charizard around 20%. Overall, this will give me an advantage on the matchup.

PT's enter matchups with this mindset regardless of the character. We know which Pokemon compare to each character, if just on general type comparison (do I need speed, range or power?).

In some cases, we have trouble finding a good Pokemon. Metaknight is a great example, all three Pokemon do fairly evenly versus him. Even in this case, we still have more options than most characters. I use Squritle to be aggressive when ahead on stocks, Ivysaur when I'm feeling defensive. I use Charizard when I'm tanking a stock. Tactical flexibility is just as important as matchup switches with the PT as well.

You entirely missed the entire point. Tier lists for the most part are based on match-ups. PT is three separate characters with three different sets of match-ups.

 

[yoshiunity]

check this Yoshi player out, and look at his matches.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Fraustdogger

there is also a Yoshi combo video in the Yoshi forums. I think you still haven't paid enough attention to Yoshi.

For all who STILL thinks Yoshi is the worst

If you wanna know how much Yoshi has changed, ask a pro, and stop thinking what Smashwiki says is always right. I speak to some pros, they have told me, and Yoshi has IMPROVED and gave me enough proof. The people on the Yoshi forum have been trying to show you how much Yoshi has improved but you keep replying "no DJC makes Yoshi useless". Stop ignoring them for once.

Stop trying to make brawl like Melee, give him as much practice as the other characters then you know how well he has improved.

P.S. If you ignore this, don't start screaming cuz you get owned by a Yoshi player.

Dude, As a fellow Yoshiplayer, I approve and agree with everything. It's been shown many times that yoshi has goods skills in the right hands. I know it, you know it, and other people who take their time with Yoshi knows it. Whether this is ignored, like most of the positive stuff posted about Yoshi is, or not, I'm still glad that I can knock some heads with him.

Cause I mean, it's isn't like there is a character board filled to the with great info, strategies and videos about using Yoshi correctly in a fight. Oh wait, there is!

 

[BDawgPHD]

I just played a match with someone using Pokemon Trainer. It was an Olimar player, and for some reason I just liked using Charizard better, although it was on wifi, so that might have had an effect. I had no problem getting a solid hit in, and then transforming with downB. In fact, I probably wouldn't have won otherwise.

Again, this isn't Melee, *****es. You don't have to have some natty 0 to death to be good, you just have to be smart.

 

[notftomearth7]

Wolf is top tier along with Ike, Snake, and ROB. Low Tier for me consists of Sonic, Jigglypuff, Olimar, Pit, and Marth. Everyone else falls in middle tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Wolf is top tier along with Ike, Snake, and ROB. Low Tier for me consists of Sonic, Jigglypuff, Olimar, Pit, and Marth. Everyone else falls in middle tier.

no. just...no. Ike is probably high tier, and maybe low end of high tier...ROB is the same, possibly top tier. Sonic is probably mid tier, Olimar might end up being top tier, Marth is top tier, and you're missing a bunch of characters in each tier.

 

[pidgey14]

Dude, As a fellow Yoshiplayer, I approve and agree with everything. It's been shown many times that yoshi has goods skills in the right hands. I know it, you know it, and other people who take their time with Yoshi knows it. Whether this is ignored, like most of the positive stuff posted about Yoshi is, or not, I'm still glad that I can knock some heads with him.

Cause I mean, it's isn't like there is a character board filled to the with great info, strategies and videos about using Yoshi correctly in a fight. Oh wait, there is!

Well. I guess there is only one way to make them believe and that is to own them with Yoshi. If they still don't believe then we continue on owning them, until they do.

 

[TheLake]

Yoshis better but hes still yoshi /:

Wheres fumi when you need em?!

 

[KeyKid19]

Toon Link seems pretty good to me, tell me how you do this edqeguard, because I'm not really aware of it, unless it's just "knock him out really really far." But TL has a lot of good spam and is strong and combo-ish, so I figure he should be in top tier.

Falcon is far far better than people think he is, because even good players just want to combo with him, and they can't, because he just doesn't do that anymore. His aerials are still great, he has more recovery options, and he still has a decent approach. I'd still only put him somewhere in the middle tier, since he doesn't have an epicly good approach, or his speed from Melee.

Pikachu is definitely top tier IMO, he has some minor spam with thundershock, he's fast, combos well, has a BETTER RECOVERY THAN IN SSB, his thunder kills at reasonably low percentages, and most of his attacks are just generally strong and ranged. Also, he doesn't really have lag to punish.

Ness's recovery sucks, but I suppose if you don't get knocked off you won't have a problem. I haven't played a great lot of him, but he seems pretty good if you already know how to play as him.

I think Kirby is probably top of mid tier, or bottom of high tier, just because he's like the Kirby of old, except he's in Brawl, so he's not broken. Dedede doesn't seem fast enough to be top tier, and I don't think his recovery is all it's cracked up to be....he has more options than most, but when compared to ROB or Meta Knight, his recovery just has aids, man...

All in all, this is an intelligent, well thought out....well...thought....this is the kind of person who should actually keep a thought when they have one....Corner-trap, when you have a thought, just let it go, man.

Toon Link's Utilt (I believe that's the move I'm thinking of) is very spamable, but it's kind of hard to get people in if they know to look out for it. His floatyness is good for combos because he doesn't fall down like most other people so he can follow you through the air. However his floatyness hurts him in terms of being edgeguarded because it makes him like a sitting duck. I know that with Falcon jump off stage backwards -> Bair -> reverse Uair can really mess up Toon Link's recovery. Also his UpB DI is kind of lame but I'm sure the good TL users know how to get around that. His Dair is good but not godly like some people make it out to be. Punishable if the opponent knows what he's doing. Projectiles add a lot to TL. Overall he's good and I'm sure he has the potential to be top tier barely but right now I think high tier is a safer spot.

Falcon's game is all about aerials. If you can get people in the air you have a good chance of winning with Falcon. However Falcon has a hard time getting quite a few characters up in the air so he gets beat in the ground battle. Pit, Metaknight, and Pikachu are his worst matchups in my opinion. I used to think that Olimar was the ultimate Falcon counter but after more examination he's not as much of a counter as those three I named are. Overall Falcon is below average but could be middle tier if he's lucky.

Yeah Pika is definitely near broken in my opinion. His Thunder has almost no open lag frames and is WAY too powerful since it's not really punishable. Fsmash has too much reach and Dsmash is freakin stupid. Honestly I can see Pika as a viable top tier in time.

Ness' recovery is not the best but he, Lucas, and Ike all have scary UpBs. You seriously just have to get out of their way because they are so nuts strong. In Melee Ness' UpB recovery could be gimped fairly easily but in Brawl with the slower tempo it's a lot harder to interrupt his UpB. Maybe projectile characters could do it but I don't play any of those so I wouldn't know. Otherwise he's a decently strong character who I can see as mid tier.

DeDeDe's UpB may be kind of crappy but other than that he his ridiculous. He has great reach, a projectile (which adds a lot even though it's not that great), loads of power, and good juggling potential thanks to his multiple jumps. His Uair and Dair are good and his Fair is nice except kind of hard to use consistently (for me anyways). Chain grab = pwnage in offline matches. In online matches it's harder to do because of stupid latency but still useful at times. Overall very strong character.

Also thanks for the compliments. lol I try to at least explain my views well even if they might not always be totally correct.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Toon Link's Utilt (I believe that's the move I'm thinking of) is very spamable, but it's kind of hard to get people in if they know to look out for it. His floatyness is good for combos because he doesn't fall down like most other people so he can follow you through the air. However his floatyness hurts him in terms of being edgeguarded because it makes him like a sitting duck. I know that with Falcon jump off stage backwards -> Bair -> reverse Uair can really mess up Toon Link's recovery. Also his UpB DI is kind of lame but I'm sure the good TL users know how to get around that. His Dair is good but not godly like some people make it out to be. Punishable if the opponent knows what he's doing. Projectiles add a lot to TL. Overall he's good and I'm sure he has the potential to be top tier barely but right now I think high tier is a safer spot.

Falcon's game is all about aerials. If you can get people in the air you have a good chance of winning with Falcon. However Falcon has a hard time getting quite a few characters up in the air so he gets beat in the ground battle. Pit, Metaknight, and Pikachu are his worst matchups in my opinion. I used to think that Olimar was the ultimate Falcon counter but after more examination he's not as much of a counter as those three I named are. Overall Falcon is below average but could be middle tier if he's lucky.

Yeah Pika is definitely near broken in my opinion. His Thunder has almost no open lag frames and is WAY too powerful since it's not really punishable. Fsmash has too much reach and Dsmash is freakin stupid. Honestly I can see Pika as a viable top tier in time.

Ness' recovery is not the best but he, Lucas, and Ike all have scary UpBs. You seriously just have to get out of their way because they are so nuts strong. In Melee Ness' UpB recovery could be gimped fairly easily but in Brawl with the slower tempo it's a lot harder to interrupt his UpB. Maybe projectile characters could do it but I don't play any of those so I wouldn't know. Otherwise he's a decently strong character who I can see as mid tier.

DeDeDe's UpB may be kind of crappy but other than that he his ridiculous. He has great reach, a projectile (which adds a lot even though it's not that great), loads of power, and good juggling potential thanks to his multiple jumps. His Uair and Dair are good and his Fair is nice except kind of hard to use consistently (for me anyways). Chain grab = pwnage in offline matches. In online matches it's harder to do because of stupid latency but still useful at times. Overall very strong character.

Also thanks for the compliments. lol I try to at least explain my views well even if they might not always be totally correct.

I think due to the defensive nature of Brawl, not to mention TL's general priority and attacks, he can defend himself while returning, although I suppose it can be harder due to floatiness. He has to be close to the stage before doing his upB, like Luigi in Melee, but his upB has a lot of vertical oomph.

Yea, Falcon kind of gets owned, especially on wifi. Pikachu is insane =/ If you're already chasing Ness off the stage, and you likely will, you should be able to get a gimp, but yea....looking out would be a good idea.

I can use Dedede's chaingrab on wifi easily, you just have to trust your internal timing and realize that it's queueing your movements :-P

What do you think of Pokemon Trainer? I'm starting to work with him more, since I can sort of use Charizard, and I'm learning the art of hot swapping What do you think of the idea of having PT as his own character, along with all the pokemon, basically saying how good each pokemon is, and then how good PT is overall, since players will inevitably use all of the pokemon in a match, unless they're me

 

[Corner-Trap]

>BDawgPHD

1) You still never told me whats wrong with SRK's tier list

2) You ignored me when I offered a match between you vs. anyone on SRK.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is definately underrated, but he still isnt a very good character. I'd say middle tier probably. Hes got range, his combo-ability is very good, he has a decent way to approach some campers (Side b), hes got decent priority, great grab game, not horrid recovery, edgeguarding abilities. From those he would seem like an excellent character, but he doesnt have as many matchups in his favor as hed like. But overall, hes definately a viable character, and dont underestimate him.

Also rob is top tier, unless people dont use him.

 

[ellelaby]

Wrong. Tiers show the characters from best to worst, based on tournament standings. For a while in melee, shiek was considered top tier, until people learned how to use fox, falco, and marth effectively. At any level under the pro level, tiers don't even matter because a character's maximum potential is never reached.

The question is, when will we reach Brawl's characters maximum potential?

If noone has yet reached their full potential then any character can win a tourney (with exceptions). That is why we see Pikachus and Lucas' playing in finals.

 

[grud315]

It is definitely to early to completely make a decisive tier list. The game has only been out for a few months! Despite the short amount of time, I believe a genral list could be made, which I have done, baed off of what I have seen/played/heard. (no particular oder within sections)

TOP

Meta Knight
Marth
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link
Captain Olimar
King Dedede
Ike
Rob
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Pikachu

MID

Fox
Falco
Pit
Snake
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Bowser
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Wario

BOTTOM

Yoshi
Samus
Peach
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Ganondorf
Link
Mario
Ness
Samus
Sonic
Captain Falcon

 

[ellelaby]

I'm glad to see alot of people have been thinking the same things in regards to Falco. I may be a bit biased, but Falco just has so many tools that he can use plus various other pros. I'd say his only real weaknesses are his average speed compared to some of the other characters and the lack of a long range/fast KO attack.

-B> is insanely hard to edgegaurd. 9/10 times you will never get hit out of the phantasm if you are at all smart with it. Characters can prepare to hit Falco mid-stage, in which case you just descend to the ledge.

-Chaingrabs. 30-50% on most characters, ridiculously more on others. Chain grabs can also be directly linked into an offstage spike or Dash Atk to auto Usmash. Instant 40-60%.

-SHDL is effective against anyone without a reflecting move, and the shine can also be a spacing follow up. On that note, the shine does not count as a projectile so it cannot be reflected, it is very useful for disrupting oncoming opponents, trips people, destroys anyone elses spam game, and is a combo finisher as well as an edgegaurd. The shine shuts down the spam game of Olimar, Link, Toon Link, and a few others. (NOT Wolf, mind you)

-Almost all of his aerials are of above average priority, dair has insane priority, his aerials are solid and most of them are lasting hitboxes. Continous bair is an absolutely broken edgegaurd. The remainder of his aerials are solid.

-His tilts all come out very fast and are all useful, especially Utilt and Ftilt. Neutral A traps against walls and can always be followed up regardless of the opponents DI.

Its also funny how no one replied this or even seemed to give it notice.

Falcos pros are above any other characters standards.