Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Emblem Lord]

I just tested Snake's range on his tilts last night.

His f-tilt has outranges Marth's f-tilt by an extremely small distance.

His u-tilt outranges Marth's u-tilt. Again the distance is very small.

Marth's d-tilt outranges Snake's d-tilt by a small margin.

When I say small I mean it. I'm talking so small it's negligible.

Snake's F-smash is equal in range to his f-tilt.

The second hit of Snake's f-tilt extend's even further, outranging all of Marth's attacks other then his shieldbreaker.

While we are at it though why not compare Snake's range to Ike's was well?

Snake's u-tilt > Ike's u-tilt.

Snake's d-tilt > Ike's d-tilt.

Ike's f-tilt > Snake's f-tilt.

Ike's jab > Snake's jab.

So Snake basically equals Marth in range and nearly equals Ike.

Thing is though Snake's F-tilt outranges Ike's u-tilt and his jab combo which are two of Ike's best moves.

Sucks for Ike. Hell sucks for Marth too, since Snake's f-tilt shuts down his range advantage.

Also Snake's Uair >>>>>>>>>>>> pretty much every Uair in the game. Same for his Bair. Not just in range, but power as well.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

well, if you're under the stage and I upB you, you'll get stage spiked at, like, 50%

But yea, to be fair (to I.T.P., who actually knows what he's talking about, unlike balzin), I guess I'm thinking that it's not hard for meta knight to kill in general. Sure, he doesn't have one hit killers like Ike, and his best kill move kills at high percentages against people with good DI. and seeing as how I don't own the game, I don't know how easy DI is, although it can't be that easy if you get dsmashed, considering how quick it is....bowser's fsmash is easy to DI because you usually see it coming, but that dsmash is quick...but assuming you can DI it, it probably kills ridiculously high.

So I'll refine my statement: Anyone who has trouble killing with meta knight is a scrub.

He doesn't have great kill moves, and taking into account DI and move degradation, it can be much worse. But he's good at chasing off the stage, putting pressure on, and stringing combos to kills. And with priority and speed to hit for good combos and then flee, what does it matter what percentage he kills at? But it's good that he can kill around low 100, low 200 at worst. I'll take those odds.

On that note, I know restoring degraded moves requires you to actually hit people. Does degrading moves in the first place require you to hit people?

Lol

10char

 

[Emblem Lord]

I.T.P: Japanese tier list?

LINK PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

 

[DGMavn]

I'm sorry, I just don't see the spacies as good in this game. Except for Wolf, who is interesting mainly because of his fsmash.

Contenders for top tier:
Olimar (pikmin are insane, has great camping game and ridiculous power with many moves, but easily gimped)
Toon Link (probably the best - see kizzu's ken combo youtube vid)
Diddy (fair, bananas have huge potential, plus spike has good priority)
Marth (I don't know whether he'll be top tier simply because he gets outcamped and it's harder to space his attacks so as to not get shield grabbed)
Meta Knight (if people can learn to spike/edgeguard)
Pit (good speed/priority/projectiles, but easy to gimp)

Anyone else needs some major technique discovery to make good.

 

[NeptunerAV]

Fox, Falco, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Metaknight, Peach, Marth, and Pit are definatly high on the tier list.

Shiek, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Olimar, Kirby, Dedede,Jiggly, Falcon, Snake,Ike,Toon Link, Yoshi, Diddy,IC's, and Rob seem to be in the middle of the tier list.

Donkey Kong, Zelda,Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser,Game and Watch,Ike, Wario, and Ganon seem to be on the southern half of the tier list this time around.

The lists I gave are in no order, and are just what I think an image of the first tier list will actually be like.

err, sonic can't finish. for crap.
wolf is amazingly bad.

ZELDA IS BETTER THAN SHIEK FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME

and Lucas / lucario / ike are mid to top tier.

Learn your brawl chars plx.

 

[Rainbow TroUt]

I'd put wolf mid tier, and wario bottom tier? Wario isn't that bad Mid Also.

 

[Zink]

I just tested Snake's range on his tilts last night.

His f-tilt has outranges Marth's f-tilt by an extremely small distance.

His u-tilt outranges Marth's u-tilt. Again the distance is very small.

Marth's d-tilt outranges Snake's d-tilt by a small margin.

When I say small I mean it. I'm talking so small it's negligible.

Snake's F-smash is equal in range to his f-tilt.

The second hit of Snake's f-tilt extend's even further, outranging all of Marth's attacks other then his shieldbreaker.

While we are at it though why not compare Snake's range to Ike's was well?

Snake's u-tilt > Ike's u-tilt.

Snake's d-tilt > Ike's d-tilt.

Ike's f-tilt > Snake's f-tilt.

Ike's jab > Snake's jab.

So Snake basically equals Marth in range and nearly equals Ike.

Thing is though Snake's F-tilt outranges Ike's u-tilt and his jab combo which are two of Ike's best moves.

Sucks for Ike. Hell sucks for Marth too, since Snake's f-tilt shuts down his range advantage.

Also Snake's Uair >>>>>>>>>>>> pretty much every Uair in the game. Same for his Bair. Not just in range, but power as well.

does Snake's dtilt spike? cuz Ike's does. Does Snake's utilt hit behind him? ike's does. And I wouldn't say range is important for utilt as much as its speed and hitbox. I think you QD or something into it most of the time anyway. Heck, does snake have ANY moves that hit behind him?

 

[RizardoLawless]

I think DeDeDe is the best, right now he is at least.
His tilts/grabs are amazing

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ummm..Who cares if Snake has no moves that hit behind him.

As a character Snake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ike.

 

[Zink]

Ummm..Who cares if Snake has no moves that hit behind him.

As a character Snake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ike.

Fail. Someone rolls behind Snake, he's gotta turn around. By which point he's hit. And you aren't supposed to get hit. IIRC.

also lawl at wolf is bad because he *****. he has marth range, snake power, and Melee Link nair priority. With pit speed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did you really just post this?

Wow.

He has to turn around?

Turn around grab or jab is quick as hell.

Also why can't Snake roll or spot dodge.

Your example is full of lose and fail.

And you proved absolutely nothing except that you are

1) An Ike fanboy.

2) An idiot.

 

[Patinator]

Wolf is quite good. He is powerful, can combo pretty well, is heavier than Fox and Falco, his Blaster can be used for pressure, you can use his F-Smash for mind games, a surprise Wolf Flash (Side B) can throw your opponent off, his recovery's good, despite being a little hard to use... Need I say more?

From what I've played... The high and top tier characters seem to be (Not quite in order)

Top

Toon Link (Quick, agile, several good moves, some killing moves, a powerful Stall-then-Fall move that doulbes as a spike... Sheesh.)

Diddy Kong (Nice recovery, combos, Banana pressure, spike, and rather agile.)

Wolf (Reasons said above.)

Meta Knight (CRAZY air game and mad combos, ground OR air. Very quick moves, moderately quick ground speed. Incredible recovery. Killing moves? Yes. Up B and Forward Smash. ^^)

High

Marth (Good range, quick moves, easier-to-utalize Side B... Wow...)

R.O.B. (Agile for a robot, good projectiles, several kill moves, great recovery, and some comboable moves, plus a spammable Down Smash.)

Pikachu (Quick, Up-Smash is powerful, Side Smash is powerful, Thunder can kill and is quicker, his Down Smash is kinda like Peach's in Melee, great recovery...)

Sonic (CRAZY speed, his F-Smash can kill, can combo, very versatile recovery, etc., etc...)


Something like that. I don't know about characters like Kirby, Jigglypuff, or Olimar because I don't play them. So sorry if they should be on there.

 

[Zink]

Did you really just post this?

Wow.

He has to turn around?

Turn around grab or jab is quick as hell.

Also why can't Snake roll or spot dodge.

Your example is full of lose and fail.

And you proved absolutely nothing except that you are

1) An Ike fanboy.

2) An idiot.

Flaming? Truth hurts? If all Snake has are jab and grab, they're quite outrangable. Roll and spot dodge are mere temporary countermeasures. I also find it amusing that you skipped over sh bair. Do you know Snake?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I just listed some stuff off the top of my head.

Of course he has more options then that.

I found it amusing that you acted like since Snake has no moves that hit behind him, his moveset is worse than Ike's.

Do you know Ike?

 

[Zink]

I just listed some stuff off the top of my head.

Of course he has more options then that.

I found it amusing that you acted like since Snake has no moves that hit behind him, his moveset is worse than Ike's.

Do you know Ike?

I found it amusing (3X COMBO) that you assume I think Snake's moveset is better than Ike's because he has no moves that hit behind him, considering I didn't say that.

 

[Lovage 805]

Stupid Tier
Snake

Good Tier
Toon Link
ROB
Ike
Marth
Luigi
King Dedede
Metaknight
Shiek
Zelda
Fox
IC's
Falco
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game & Watch
Peach
Olimar
Pikachu (festizzio)

Less Good Tier
Yoshi
Kirby
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Pokemon Trainer (shock)
Ganondorf
Wario
Mario
Bowser
Ness
Lucas
Lucario
Link
Samus

Tears Tier
Captain Falcon


[characters in no particular order]

 

[Christova]

Based on how I've played so far, I'd place them more like this:

Stupid Tier
Snake
Toon Link
Olimar

Good Tier
ROB
Ike
Marth
Luigi
King Dedede
Metaknight
Shiek
Zelda
Fox
Lucas
IC's
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Ganondorf

Less Good Tier
Yoshi
Kirby
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Mario
Bowser
Ness
Peach
Lucario
Link
Samus
Falco

Tears Tier
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong


Good catch on the pokemon trainer. I think that if Charizard wasn't such a letdown PT would probably be higher for me. I usually just play as Squirtle. DK got castrated this generation, compared to the other heavies (G-dorf, DDD, Ike, even Bowser).

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Stupid Tier
Snake

Good Tier
Toon Link
ROB
Ike
Marth
Luigi
King Dedede
Metaknight
Shiek
Zelda
Fox
IC's
Falco
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game & Watch
Peach
Olimar
Pikachu (festizzio)

Less Good Tier
Yoshi
Kirby
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Pokemon Trainer (shock)
Ganondorf
Wario
Mario
Bowser
Ness
Lucas
Lucario
Link
Samus

Tears Tier
Captain Falcon


[characters in no particular order]

Lucas is good tier, son. All of his attacks are epic.

At least Sonic is in a fair spot, unlike the high rating fanboys and the low rating people who don't know how to chase/intercept.

 

[J0K3R]

Toon Link, w00t!

 

[hoopspr226]

Why does Donkey Kong get no love?

Played correctly, he matches up well against nearly everyone. F-tilt is an incredible move for pressuring/advancing/approaching an opponent. It's got great range, great priority, and can swat away projectiles. Uair and bair are good kill moves, and all of his smashes are vastly improved over melee (faster and equally strong). Plus, dsmash out of shield is beastly.

 

[hoopspr226]

official tier list is on page 52
And by official I mean the only list that makes sense

Lol you might want to make sure your list actually has all the characters before so boldly declaring it as the "official" list rofl

Where's Pit??

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

From what I've seen online and with my friends, speed seems to help a lot in this game. These are in no particular order.
Top Tier:
Sonic; Some nice combos can be started with his b moves
Pit; Great for racking up damage, hard to kill, lacks real killing moves though...
G&W; Call me crazy, but I have yet to lose with him online. Great aerials and down throw places them right next to you
Marth; I hated him in Melee cuz of the range, and he's got it here too, plus speed and a better side b
Toon Link; A version of Link that doesn't totally suck. Good projectiles, combos and d-air
Olimar; can't use him at all, but he has some nasty aerials and range with all pikman

That's all I'm gonna post cuz who really cares about the lower tiers?

Why'd they have to nerf Peach? Sob...

 

[StripesOrBars]

Hmmm, I can tell none of you have ever even touched melee.

Don't compare Brawl to Melee if you have never played Melee please.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Mistaked post.

If smashboards had a good server, my 6 megs would be of use.

 

[I.T.P]

at EL's request, the Japanese Tier list by Ikki once again:


[SS Rank]
Snake, ROB, Metakknight
[S Rank]
Falco
[A Rank]
Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
[B Rank]
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C Rank]
Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D Rank]
Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E Rank]
Zelda
[F Rank]
Jigglypuff
[G Rank]
Ganon, Yoshi

 

[Emblem Lord]

Some of it is good.

But alot it is just failure IMO.

Japanese don't know **** about this game.

 

[I.T.P]

Some of it is good.

But alot it is just failure IMO.

having met and played against the people that created this, I kinda trust in most of what they're saying, Ikki alone has around 500-700 hours of Brawl on his console, his wife is a smash player, his 3 year old son is a smash player for crying out loud, and the man brought us many many great moves and tecniques in brawl, he was the first to discover gliding toss,DDD's chaingrab, DDD's Infinite chain against some characters, and more.

however, while having said that, I do agree that some of the placements in that list are highly peculiar, and I intend to talk to ikki and hear the reasoning behind those, since
Kei didn't seem to be able to provide answers.

as far as I've heard from kei though, that list is constantly updated(once a week or so IIRC) and 99% of the Japanese community regards that as their official list.

and all that being said, I do sense they are a bit too uptight about melee style combos and techniques, hearing that Kei gave me Tilt spamming for shiek and Drill combos for fox as reasons for their placements, I can't be sure if that's the way ikki feels as well, I'll know once I manage to catch him online and have a chat.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean Zelda that low?

Plus japanese tend to play...less gay I think.

Like they don't camp or ***** gay strats.

Also Falco over alot of the others who were shoe-ins for top tier doesn't sit right with me. He is equal to them.

Fox over Wolf?

No.

DK and Bowser that high?

No.

Marth only in A tier? No.

ROB in SS?

No.

 

[I.T.P]

I mean Zelda that low?

Plus japanese tend to play...less gay I think.

Like they don't camp or ***** gay strats.

Also Falco over alot of the others who were shoe-ins for top tier doesn't sit right with me. He is equal to them.

Fox over Wolf?

No.

DK and Bowser that high?

No.

Marth only in A tier? No.

ROB in SS?

No.

While I agree with you on most of that, I'm sure they have their reasons for it, and I intend to hear them out before crossing off anything.

btw, Japanese don't camp? WTF are you on about? go watch some smasher's Link vids or some general Dr. Mario vids and come back here saying that.

also, Masashi is the most defensive marth player I've ever played, even TANI was much less annoying to steal victories from, Masashi is OMFG impossible.

all of these refers to SSBM BTW

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh.

Alot of their placements make no sense to me.

That's all I'm really saying.

Plus it's too soon to make an official list.

Aren't they jumping the gun?

Especially since new strats/AT's are being discovered almost daily?

 

[I.T.P]

Eh.

Alot of their placements make no sense to me.

That's all I'm really saying.

Plus it's too soon to make an official list.

Aren't they jumping the gun?

Especially since new strats/AT's are being discovered almost daily?

you do realise I said this list is updated and remade every week right?

 

[Emblem Lord]

What's the point of reposting a constantly changing list?

Wait a year and make one solid list I say.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

you do realise I said this list is updated and remade every week right?

XD Thats why I care less for this tier bs.But anyhow,you have any idea why Mario is getting up there?I mean,Iam a Mario-mainer,and have been for many years.But other than Mario's KO ablility being improved in this game,Mario's the same dude to me.

 

[Mini Mic]

Yoshi is the best, there we can all stop arguing now. *leaves*

 

[TehBo49]

at EL's request, the Japanese Tier list by Ikki once again:


[SS Rank]
Snake, ROB, Metakknight
[S Rank]
Falco
[A Rank]
Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
[B Rank]
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C Rank]
Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D Rank]
Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E Rank]
Zelda
[F Rank]
Jigglypuff
[G Rank]
Ganon, Yoshi

IC & Sheik that high?

Bowser & DK above DDD?

Falco & Fox above Wolf?

Mario above Luigi?

Zelda & Ness that low?

Toon Link & Marth only A Rank?

Those are my biggest problems with this list.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Is the Japanese tier list based upon tournament rankings like ours?

I disagree with where Ike and Pokemon Trainer are at...

 

[OoNoiRoO]

at EL's request, the Japanese Tier list by Ikki once again:


[SS Rank]
Snake, ROB, Metakknight
[S Rank]
Falco
[A Rank]
Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
[B Rank]
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C Rank]
Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D Rank]
Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E Rank]
Zelda
[F Rank]
Jigglypuff
[G Rank]
Ganon, Yoshi

I'd say this list is very accurate for now. Please remember that tier lists represent overall potential and advantages over other characters alongside current metagame. Not because "zomg ike is strong he should be higher."

Also remember that tier lists do not mean that the higher ranked character will always win. Tier lists represent if two players of same skill were to play against each other, the character would determine the overall match up. Of course there are exceptions such as counter picks. In all, do not entirely take tier lists to heart, especially since the game has only been out for almost 2 months/two weeks for US).

I'd like to know why ROB is SS though. I know he's pretty good, but what exactly makes him godly? Fairing people off stage can be avoided with good DI, his range is good but definitely not broken, what exactly is it?

 

[The Mediator]

[SS Rank]
Snake, ROB, Metakknight
[S Rank]
Falco
[A Rank]
Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
[B Rank]
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C Rank]
Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D Rank]
Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E Rank]
Zelda
[F Rank]
Jigglypuff
[G Rank]
Ganon, Yoshi

This list is about... 50% failure.

 

[YoshiBomb]

Here is a vid that shows some of Yoshi's potential.

http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/qfhsals96wMjGEeQ.html

 

[Dacman]

Y is wolf n Sheik B level,
theyre both pretty fast n Wolf can put up a nice aerial game.
I wud put at least wolf in S level wit Falco