Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

@ NSS: Why is Fox so high? I think he should at least be below DK. Sheik & Sonic should also move up a little.

A Key and great point brough up to me by MartenBor, Xiivi's younger brother explains Fox, I'll bring it up.

Two characters that are getting too much slack from theoretical match-ups despite the fact they do very well in tournaments: King DeDeDe and Fox.

Everyone consistently disregards their tournament performance and simply goes with the match-ups with these two. These two are the ones who are most unjustly placed.'

Looking at King DeDeDe, in the character rankings thread vs. others:
1 Snake (25 top8, 20 top4, 10 top2, 11 wins) - 875.4
2 Meta Knight (24 top8, 13 top4, 14 top2, 8 wins) -624.925
3 King Dedede (15 top8, 8 top4, 7 top2, 7 wins) - 543.73125
4 Marth (13 top8, 9 top4, 2 top2, 6 wins) - 316.29375 - 5
5 Mr. Game & Watch (9 top8, 7 top4, 6 top2, 5 wins) - 284.037535 - 8
6 Lucario (8 top8, 4 top4, 3 top2, 5 wins) - 228.66875 - 10
7 ROB (13 top8, 10 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 221.14375 - 4
8 Wario (12 top8, 8 top4, 1 top2, 4 wins) - 211.14375 - 9
9 Falco (10 top8, 5 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins) - 196.46875 - 7
10 Olimar (8 top8, 8 top4, 3 top2, 3 wins) - 185.30625 - 6

Look at the gap in points: over 200 between him and Marth. Not only that, look at his wins. They rival Metaknights. He's easily a cut above the rest of the "great" characters along with Snake and Metaknight. Why people flat out refuse to accept his tournament results are beyond me. Especially when many of those wins are from people using King DeDeDe SOLO. Yes, they don't even fall on secondaries a lot of the time. I'm sorry but that says something about his match-ups being completely out of proportion and should definitely make them hold zero water over tournament placings.

Then we look at Fox:
11 Donkey Kong (4 top8, 5 top4, 1 top2, 4 wins) - 125.74375 - 13
12 Wolf (11 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 115.4625 - 11
13 Fox (3 top8, 1 top4, 2 wins) - 111.2375 - 14
14 Ice Climbers (3 top8, 3 top4, 2 top2, 1 win) - 99.625 - 16
15 Kirby (5 top8, 6 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 92.0625
16 Pit (4 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 86.725 - 12

Looking at Fox's points, he has significantly less placements than the other characters in his area. I mean, look at Wolf who has 15 placements versus Fox's 6 placements. Yet Fox is a mere 4 points behind him. What does this say? The things Wolf, Donkey Kong, etc... are winning are small tournaments with very little weight. But Fox is winning big events, and the people who are winning with him such as Gamble, are using Fox SOLO. So Fox is still very high despite being vastly underplayed compared to the other characters around him and still doing well in big events despite his supposedly terrible match-ups. Once again I believe the match-ups for this character are heavily flawed and should definitely not be holding more weight than tournament results.

You're hurting two characters who continually PROVE themselves to be great characters. I constantly see people say "well if you think so-and-so is so good and their match-ups aren't so bad, then go prove it by winning BIG tournaments!". Well Fox and King DeDeDe are showing what their worth, even with Fox being underplayed with almost no one maining him and very few people contributing to his metagame. Yet, people will make exceptions for Zelda and Toon Link and Diddy Kong saying "well, they are obviously very good and just underplayed!". Yet when you look at their character boards you see many people contributing to their metagame and helping developing strategies and match-ups. Yet you don't see much intelligent discussion in the Fox forums. Yet, he's still doing great. King DeDeDe is doing amazing and people just want to say everyone in the world has an advantage on him and it just isn't true. He's winning these tournaments and beating these characters despite having terrible match-ups supposedly.

You need to realize when match-ups need to be re-evaluated instead of saying tournament placings need to be re-evaluated. Tournament match-ups are the actual, theoretical match-ups are simply opinions. If King DeDeDe is still beating these characters in real life, then obviously your opinions on paper are flawed. Same goes for Fox. If it's so easy for someone to pick Pikachu and chaingrab Fox to 70% three times and kill him, then why doesn't this happen? Obviously because it's harder than people think to do such a thing.

He was so right, I had to really bump Fox up, and I ALMOST decided to move DDD above ROB, but I hesitated a bit.

As for Sheik and Sonic, what reason do I have to move them up? They seem well placed given the data we have for them now, and Sonic tends to be placed even lower >_>.

 

[pidgey14]

Yoshi is worthless. Probably the worst character in the game. Only ones who come close are Captain Falcon and Samus.

If Yoshi is Worthless then would there be any Yoshi mains?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If Yoshi is Worthless then would there be any Yoshi mains?

Yes, because people are stubborn.

Plus, y'know, people can play whoever they want...?

Smooth Criminal

 

[TheSundanceKid]

Being sarcastic on SWF fails cause everyone here is ignorant, or people jump to conclusions before they really understand anything. You take a guess. Actually, my answers to that question are pages back on this thread.

If it offends you to hear me say something like that, then sry.

Because of the tournies.

I gotz an idea, put Yoshi in his own tier. I call it the fail tier

It's ok, I didn't read your other post. It's just that when my friends and I are being sarcastic we use words like "gotz" and stuff. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm actually sort of inclined to say Dedede should be fourth, if not third.
I don't care how well Azen Lucario has been doing, I still don't think he should be that high.
Poor Yoshi T_T

I'm actually starting to get that DDD vibe as well. The fat penguin is showing in tournaments that he's much better than given credit for in other assets.

It's not only Azen, I know for **** sure that Lucario probably has an even matchup with both Snake and MK, and that really is HUGE, not to mention, I really think his matchups are actually excellent, instead of average.

And yeah....Sorry about Yoshi, when he actaully gets placings and if I can actually see why he has better matchups that most Yoshi mainers say he does, I simply cannot place him much higher. He's just lucky Falcon blows so hard in the other two aspects that it STILL kept him below Yoshi despite being 23 >_>.

 

[bigman40]

Yes, because people are stubborn.

Plus, y'know, people can play whoever they want...?

Smooth Criminal

define stubborn in your post. I'm not understanding it's meaning, unless I'm thinking something random for it >_>

I thought people play snake, meta, and GW cuz they want to win?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

define stubborn in your post. I'm not understanding it's meaning, unless I'm thinking something random for it >_>

I thought people play snake, meta, and GW cuz they want to win?

Because it's OBVIOUSLY impossible we choose them just because we liked them as characters and happened to get lucky >_> <_<.


(I am NOT explaining MaW)

 

[bigman40]

Yeah, it is impossible to tell. I don't attempt to figure out who loves this and that (it's obvious that if someone picks lower tiers then they like playing them), so I regard nearly all of them as tier *****. Meh, that's life......in a world full of snakes and metas. -__-

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

And a worthless character can only be made if he has no attacks,movements,weights, and the char automatically loses all of his/her/its stock before the match really starts. So please don't exagerate (im lacking a better word here). and that char would still be worth it just for messing around, or for getting chars if u need more versus matches.

 

[Dantarion]

I feel like the creation of the tier list itself is starting to affect itself.

I went to anime expo, and saw a lot of mediocre snakes and metas. However, one thing I noticed is that the people NOT playing with the higher tiers were actually the better players. Yes, there were a few people who were good at playing snake+meta, so many people are now playing them that its starting to make them look bad. Also, since everyone plays snake and meta, everyone knows how to defend against their techniuqes.

For example, people now fear the utilt, and know the c4 strikes under platforms on battlefield, meta's up+b has rediculous knockback, etc.

Does anyone else feel like Snake+Meta will suddently not seem nearly as "God Tier" as everyone feels now, as people adjust to everyone and their mom trying to pick up snake and meta because they are high tier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It doesn't change the fact that they are the best in the game.

So what if people know how to fight against their strats?

They are still dominating tournaments and will continue to do so simply because they are far better then the rest of cast.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Yoshi is worthless. Probably the worst character in the game. Only ones who come close are Captain Falcon and Samus.

He's not worthless, just low tier. Same with Captain Falcon and Samus.

 

[boss8]

Whatever you say, Boss.

Now, contribute to the discussion or just GTFO. We don't really care how good you were in Melee (huh?) or how good you are now in Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

who is we??? you GTFO son i can say what i want where i want how i want to whoever i want....the truth hurts.....if u dont really care then ignore the **** post......

lol another **** blade breaker....

 

[TehBo49]

@ NSS: Interesting article. But still, Fox's matchups are average. I still think he should be under DK.

Sheik isn't bad enough to be borderline bottom. She should at least be at the bottom of mid. Her only weakness is a lack of KO power.

Sonic is also better than that. I think he should be above Ganon & Bowser. He has better matchups & tourney results (on Ganon).

 

[Emblem Lord]

If a character cannot place or win consistently, then they are worthless.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I feel like the creation of the tier list itself is starting to affect itself.

I went to anime expo, and saw a lot of mediocre snakes and metas. However, one thing I noticed is that the people NOT playing with the higher tiers were actually the better players. Yes, there were a few people who were good at playing snake+meta, so many people are now playing them that its starting to make them look bad. Also, since everyone plays snake and meta, everyone knows how to defend against their techniuqes.

For example, people now fear the utilt, and know the c4 strikes under platforms on battlefield, meta's up+b has rediculous knockback, etc.

Does anyone else feel like Snake+Meta will suddently not seem nearly as "God Tier" as everyone feels now, as people adjust to everyone and their mom trying to pick up snake and meta because they are high tier?

At the highest levels of play everyone already knows this, and Snake and MK still dominate.

At the highest levels of play, people know all the tricks, and the fact is, perfect-spacing Marth's ftilt still is incredibly safe. Your opponent knowing it's safe does not change this fact.

There's no way to counter superior moves, you can negate it to a degree, and eliminate the surprise, but they're still there, and your opponent will still be able to incorporate them into his/her game.

So, they're not as Godly in casuals, but cold hard technical data still grants them an overall advantage.

If a character cannot place or win consistently, then they are worthless.

worthless is a subjective term, we now know your definition EL, but others believe differently.

 

[TehBo49]

If a character cannot place or win consistently, then they are worthless.

Is that directed to me?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was directed at anyone who thinks that being lower tier means anything at all.

It means the same thing ultimately.

Worthlessness.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

He's not worthless, just low tier. Same with Captain Falcon and Samus.

Captain Falcon, Yoshi, and Samus are worthless. If you don't think so, then you are an idiot, and just as worthless as those three.

It was directed at anyone who thinks that being lower tier means anything at all.

It means the same thing ultimately.

Worthlessness.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Brinzy]

Got a question: what tends to take priority when it comes to matching up to the rest of the cast? The quantity of the different degrees of the match-ups or the characters that are countered? Let's say, for a hypothetical situation, if someone like Ganon was a counter to the top of the pile in the game but sucked against everyone else... while C. Falcon was somewhat below average against half of the cast but he matched up and sometimes outperformed other characters. Which one would more than likely place above the other? I'm not sure if I'm being clear, and I'm aware that this isn't the only way tiers are determined... but yeah, just wondering here.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Lobelia's post made me Lol for truth <_<

 

[adumbrodeus]

It was directed at anyone who thinks that being lower tier means anything at all.

It means the same thing ultimately.

Worthlessness.

It means that you have a more difficult thing winning.

And remember, so lower tier characters make good secondaries to deal with specific bad match-ups.


That and, remember, metagame advances might make a low tier character go up a few tiers.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Low tier = someone you can beat noobs with, but can't place in tournament with anyone good there (unless you have secondaries in the higher tiers).

Worthless = If Azen, M2k, or someone on a similar level can't beat a ****ty player with that character.

The fact is that higher tiered characters dominate tournaments. I'm basically saying worthless is too strong of a word to describe "not as good".

 

[BigRick]

Raphael: I would definitely take account of these things... in a tournament it's definitely better for a character to be countered by an underplayed character instead of a regularly played one

 

[bigman40]

Low tier = someone you can beat noobs with, but can't place in tournament with anyone good there (unless you have secondaries in the higher tiers).

Worthless = If Azen, M2k, or someone on a similar level can't beat a ****ty player with that character.

The fact is that higher tiered characters dominate tournaments. I'm basically saying worthless is too strong of a word to describe "not as good".

So, According to that, has M2k or Azen played Yoshi?

 

[Praxis]

If a character cannot place or win consistently, then they are worthless.

I disagree with you. People can overcome flaws. Peach is considered low-mid in most circles, but a good Peach player can overcome her downsides and place well.

I've seen good Yoshi players out there.

You know, I like tiers, but people who stick to them overly really do prove the phrase "tiers are for queers". Tiers are good as a general guide of which characters are going to make it easiest to win. The lower on the list you pick a character, the better you'll need to learn the character and the more time you'll need to do well.

It might not be possible to win a tournament with those characters without being one of the best players on the planet, but you can still get pretty good with him and be able to beat most people.

 

[TehBo49]

Got a question: what tends to take priority when it comes to matching up to the rest of the cast? The quantity of the different degrees of the match-ups or the characters that are countered? Let's say, for a hypothetical situation, if someone like Ganon was a counter to the top of the pile in the game but sucked against everyone else... while C. Falcon was somewhat below average against half of the cast but he matched up and sometimes outperformed other characters. Which one would more than likely place above the other? I'm not sure if I'm being clear, and I'm aware that this isn't the only way tiers are determined... but yeah, just wondering here.

Captain Falcon would place higher. The tier list doesn't weight matchups against higher tiers as more important than vs low tiers. Zelda actually did well against top/highs in Melee but was in bottom because she sucked vs other low/bottoms.

 

[BigRick]

Emblem Lord is speaking the truth, some guys need to get out of their little dream world.

 

[Sasha]

So, they're not as Godly in casuals, but cold hard technical data still grants them an overall advantage.

QFT.

Captain Falcon, Yoshi, and Samus are worthless. If you don't think so, then you are an idiot, and just as worthless as those three.

Low tier = someone you can beat noobs with, but can't place in tournament with anyone good there (unless you have secondaries in the higher tiers).

Worthless = If Azen, M2k, or someone on a similar level can't beat a ****ty player with that character.

If Lobelia is using the term "worthless" in the same way as Rapid Assassin is, then he's an idiot. Also, I can beat most people with ANY character. So by Rapid Assassin's definition, there's no such thing as a "worthless" character.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

If Lobelia is using the term "worthless" in the same way as Rapid Assassin is, then he's an idiot. Also, I can beat most people with ANY character. So by Rapid Assassin's definition, there's no such thing as a "worthless" character.

Two things.
1. My definition of worthless differs from Rapid Assassin's definition of worthless.
2. Don't call me 'he' again.
3. In before 'no girls on the internet.'

 

[Sasha]

I disagree with you. People can overcome flaws. Peach is considered low-mid in most circles, but a good Peach player can overcome her downsides and place well.

I've seen good Yoshi players out there.

You know, I like tiers, but people who stick to them overly really do prove the phrase "tiers are for queers". Tiers are good as a general guide of which characters are going to make it easiest to win. The lower on the list you pick a character, the better you'll need to learn the character and the more time you'll need to do well.

It might not be possible to win a tournament with those characters without being one of the best players on the planet, but you can still get pretty good with him and be able to beat most people.

Agreed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4

Two things.
1. My definition of worthless differs from Rapid Assassin's definition of worthless.
2. Don't call me 'he' again.
3. In before 'no girls on the internet.'

My apologies madam. Define: worthless.

EDIT: Also ^^ 3 things. lol.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

My apologies madam. Define: worthless.

EDIT: Also ^^ 3 things. lol.

Ahhh. Yeah, three things. I was originally just going to put two things, then I remembered that there are no girls on the internet.

There's not just one definition of worth and worthlessness. However, since this IS a tier list, I was using the term 'worthless' in terms of high-level competitive play. I'll use the character I know most about as an example.
No one would like to prove Samus's worth more than I would. However, it's painfully obvious to Samus mains that she isn't going anywhere in a competitive setting. I've taken Meta Knight scrubs to the cleaners with Samus, and if I ever replace the copy of Brawl I sold, I'll do the same again. However, in top-drawer competition, she's going nowhere, and this is evidenced by the fact that devoted players such as Rohins, Tudor, and Xyro have yet to place higher than...say...fourth with Samus. I may be harsh in this statement, but to me, you either take first place, or you lose. Samus has yet to take first place, therefore, she has always lost. Samus, like Yoshi and Captain Falcon, have no tournament standing despite the best efforts of their faithful. That should tell you something.

 

[Kiwikomix]

If Yoshi is Worthless then would there be any Yoshi mains?

I don't MAIN Yoshi, but I certainly do play him a lot.
Why?
Because it's fun. Yoshi is hands-down my favorite character to play with the game.
Of course he can't compete on the same level as MK, Snake, Dedede, and pals. Of course he probably won't win a tournament anytime soon. Of course no high-level players give him a chance. I'm not crying about any of these things, they're simply true and there's nothing I can do about it. No matter how hard I try, Yoshi will never be absolutely tournament-viable. That's life, and it could just be because I'm a poor player, but it's the truth.
Bottom line: Tier lists don't force you to avoid certain characters. But they don't force you to play certain characters either. But bear in mind that if you choose a lower character and don't put in a whole lot of time into finding out how to beat the higher characters, you're not going to get anywhere. You'll just be working a whole lot harder.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

who is we??? you GTFO son i can say what i want where i want how i want to whoever i want....the truth hurts.....if u dont really care then ignore the **** post......

lol another **** blade breaker....

This is just too good.

 

[Sasha]

There's not just one definition of worth and worthlessness. However, since this IS a tier list, I was using the term 'worthless' in terms of high-level competitive play. I'll use the character I know most about as an example.
No one would like to prove Samus's worth more than I would. However, it's painfully obvious to Samus mains that she isn't going anywhere in a competitive setting. I've taken Meta Knight scrubs to the cleaners with Samus, and if I ever replace the copy of Brawl I sold, I'll do the same again. However, in top-drawer competition, she's going nowhere, and this is evidenced by the fact that devoted players such as Rohins, Tudor, and Xyro have yet to place higher than...say...fourth with Samus. I may be harsh in this statement, but to me, you either take first place, or you lose. Samus has yet to take first place, therefore, she has always lost. Samus, like Yoshi and Captain Falcon, have no tournament standing despite the best efforts of their faithful. That should tell you something.

Gotcha. Well then I agree with you that they have little to no chance to be anything but bottom tier due to their terrible competitive standing. I also agree that discussing the worth of a character according to casual play is counterproductive to producing a tier list. So, for your definition, yes they are definitely worthless; however, I do still have hope for an up and coming C. Falcon player to come and ****. He was my main in SSB 64 and Melee, but he needs some help for this one.

 

[Adapt]

I've updated my list slightly. I really had no basis for putting Pika and TL above Fox. That was a very good point that you brought to my attention NSS.

Top: Snake, MK
High: DDD, GaW, Marth, Falco, ROB, Wario
Upper: Lucario, Olimar, DK, Wolf, Pit, ICs, Fox, Kirby, Pikachu, TL
Lower: Diddy, ZSS, Zelda, Luigi, Ness, Sonic, Peach, Sheik, Mario, Lucas
Low: Ike, PT, Bowser, Ganon, Samus, Link
Bottom: Jiggs, Yoshi, CF

Disclaimer: It's based 1/2 on Tourney placements, 1/2 on opinion, and 1/2 on discussion (in that order)

If you define worthless as in the tourney scene then you can pretty much chop my list in half between upper-mid and lower-mid. Those below are practically worthless for trying to win a tourney

Personally though, I define worthless as whether I can play with them or not. It's all fun and games until you are playing for money after all.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

yoshi's worthless? Shananigans!
Yoshi's more of a jack of all trades kinda guy...excels against very few, but doesn't suck against many either.
I sha'll return in 3 days time with a more depth included post on your lies and flibbertigibbets!

Top: Snake, MK
High: DDD, GaW, Marth, Falco, ROB, Wario
Upper: Lucario, Olimar, DK, Wolf, Pit, ICs, Fox, Kirby, Pikachu, TL
Lower: Diddy, ZSS, Zelda, Luigi, Ness, Sonic, Peach, Sheik, Mario, Lucas
Low: Ike, PT, Bowser, Ganon, Samus, Link
Bottom: Jiggs, Yoshi, CF

Yoshi can beat Wario,lucario and DK (these are just the ones im certain of)
possibly Snake depending on what people are saying >.>

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. No girls on the internetz
2. Any girls are actually guys
3. Any pictures of girls are of the guy's sister.
4. This was done for lulz.


Lobelia are you the same lobelia that appeared recently on the MP:H forums?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Disclaimer: It's based 1/2 on Tourney placements, 1/2 on opinion, and 1/2 on discussion (in that order)

Shouldn't you have 1 1/2 tier lists then?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

1. No girls on the internetz
2. Any girls are actually guys
3. Any pictures of girls are of the guy's sister.
4. This was done for lulz.


Lobelia are you the same lobelia that appeared recently on the MP:H forums?

Ahaha, on GameFAQs? Yes, that's me. I play Melee in addition to MPH.