Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[jiovanni007]

Note-Rankings list-Olimar-6th

Olimar is rather underrated and most discussions go:

"ZOMG, HE CANT RECOVER HE SUXZORZ!!!"

Apparently being very floaty, having SA, being able to DI up and saving your second jump counts for nothing around here. Saying that Olimar gets consistently gimped at 50% by all characters is a bit irresponsible. The combination of the 3 factors I've listed only puts Olimar in extreme danger of MK, D3, Kirby, and Pit. MK and Kirby can be dealt with with the whistle since MK moves slowly through the air and will likely try to shuttle loop after an airdodge, no Kirby player is gonna hit you with the entirety of his dair so he may go for a bair to expend Olimar's jumps but again the whistle destroys that gameplan and puts Kirby in an awkward gimping position, D3 and Pit don't have that many jumps. D3 must rely on his bair as the fair is likely to whiff. Once he misses one, he won't get another chance to gimp till he knocks you off again. That plus its D3 so Olimar would more than likely die from one of his attacks. Pit is probably the best bet as projectiles that won't cause death and good mobility may actually give Olimar trouble.

 

[Adapt]

I love playing as Samus. I just constantly lose with her due to her sucking. However, I just took a look at Ankoku's character rankings, and apparently Samus, ZSS, and Captain Falcon are higher on the list now than Ike, Lucas, and Toon Link. Weird.

I think Lucas and TL are mid-tier anyway. Ike is lower. So I'm not really all that surprised. Also, look at the most up-to-date rankings on the bottom, TL is back above Samus and ZSS

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I think Lucas and TL are mid-tier anyway. Ike is lower. So I'm not really all that surprised. Also, look at the most up-to-date rankings on the bottom, TL is back above Samus and ZSS

But Tink is still lower than Craptain Falcon.
In the words of former WWE Cruiserweight Champion Gregory "The Hurricane" Helms....
WATS UP WIT DAT?!

 

[jiovanni007]

But Tink is still lower than Craptain Falcon.
In the words of former WWE Cruiserweight Champion Gregory "The Hurricane" Helms....
WATS UP WIT DAT?!

This is where subjectivity comes into play. Everyone thinks that Toon Link can stand up to the likes of the higher tiers, but so far he has yet to prove that he can hang with mid tier. So He is likely to be shoved into mid tier, because intelligent people know that you can't base facts on subjectivity. Since we all know that Toon Link has skills, yet he can't prove them, he is given the benefit of the doubt and place higher than the Capp'n who the whole community believes to be the worst in the game. Despite his tournament standings proving otherwise, people will just make excuses that they have probably shunned in the past such as the popularity reasoning that I was actually flamed for on this topic. Basically people believe that the Capp'n has gotten this far due to his popularity. If I made that statement, many, if not everyone would agree whole-heartedly and also add that his standings will go down in the future. For the most part, people only agree with this when attempting to move a character down. If you use this in an attempt to move someone up you better bring a flame shield.

 

[BentoBox]

Why aren't ICs high tier.

 

[Corigames]

Why would they be? The chain grab? Too bad it takes both of them, everyone sees it coming, and its the only thing they can really do anyway. If you can't CG with IC's, you aren't going to do much >_>

That's why.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar is rather underrated and most discussions go:

"ZOMG, HE CANT RECOVER HE SUXZORZ!!!"

Apparently being very floaty, having SA, being able to DI up and saving your second jump counts for nothing around here. Saying that Olimar gets consistently gimped at 50% by all characters is a bit irresponsible. The combination of the 3 factors I've listed only puts Olimar in extreme danger of MK, D3, Kirby, and Pit. MK and Kirby can be dealt with with the whistle since MK moves slowly through the air and will likely try to shuttle loop after an airdodge, no Kirby player is gonna hit you with the entirety of his dair so he may go for a bair to expend Olimar's jumps but again the whistle destroys that gameplan and puts Kirby in an awkward gimping position, D3 and Pit don't have that many jumps. D3 must rely on his bair as the fair is likely to whiff. Once he misses one, he won't get another chance to gimp till he knocks you off again. That plus its D3 so Olimar would more than likely die from one of his attacks. Pit is probably the best bet as projectiles that won't cause death and good mobility may actually give Olimar trouble.

For real. I'm kinda tired of it. I've lasted until 250% several times-saving my second jump, using the whistle, and playing very aggressive and patient defense. And you're totally right about the characters that can give Olimar trouble. Both MK and Kirby prevail over Olimar for the same reasons you gave, and Pit and D3 are easy to fight until I'm hit off the stage, which CAN spell trouble, but in reality, usually doesn't. Really, Olimar's only disadvantages are kirby, mk, and rob. Those are only bad for Olimar cuz they all edgeguard VERY well, and outprioritize Olimar's pikmin with their racking moves. His tournament rankings have proved that his recovery isn't as big of an issue as it's made out to be, and the stereotypical Olimar recovery is just plain annoying to hear now.

If you can say that Olimar is easily and consistently gimped at 30 and 50%, you aren't playing against a decent Olimar. It's that simple guys.

 

[jiovanni007]

Why aren't ICs high tier.

Why would they be? The chain grab? Too bad it takes both of them, everyone sees it coming, and its the only thing they can really do anyway. If you can't CG with IC's, you aren't going to do much >_>

That's why.

Exactly why I hate hearing arguments about the potential of characters. IC can potentially 0-death every char in the game yet they are placed properly in the tier list. Whereas Zelda who can potentially play a great defensive game is still being placed above mid tier though she fails at life in the tournament scene. She was initially overrated and should be mid tier.

For real. I'm kinda tired of it. I've lasted until 250% several times-saving my second jump, using the whistle, and playing very aggressive and patient defense. And you're totally right about the characters that can give Olimar trouble. Both MK and Kirby prevail over Olimar for the same reasons you gave, and Pit and D3 are easy to fight until I'm hit off the stage, which CAN spell trouble, but in reality, usually doesn't. Really, Olimar's only disadvantages are kirby, mk, and rob. Those are only bad for Olimar cuz they all edgeguard VERY well, and outprioritize Olimar's pikmin with their racking moves. His tournament rankings have proved that his recovery isn't as big of an issue as it's made out to be, and the stereotypical Olimar recovery is just plain annoying to hear now.

If you can say that Olimar is easily and consistently gimped at 30 and 50%, you aren't playing against a decent Olimar. It's that simple guys.

Agree'd with agreement of my statement >.>

Seriously though, competitive Olimars will use that annoying whistle to thwart your plans quite often. He plays a mean defense when necessary can can dish out the pain as well. Olimar definitely belongs in the second tier. He's proved it through tournament placings and through being an all around good character. As DanGR stated, his only real problems are Kirby (whom you won't see unless you're fighting me or the other 7 Kirby mains nationwide), MK, and ROB. Neutral matches and soft counters are easily taken care of when people actually know what they're doing. Its only when you get to the 70-30's that counters become a real issue.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

As much as I love Olimar, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that his recovery is gimpable, though nowhere NEAR as gimpable as Fox, Link, or Ivysaur.

 

[Snail]

Exactly. Remember Falco in Melee? His recovery was about as crappy as Olimar's is in Brawl, and he was still Top Tier. Now of course Olimar is nowhere as godly as Melee's Falco, but still.

Your new tier list looks good, Lobelia. I still doubt D3's placement but I guess this is still about tournament rankings, not about who's better on paper.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Exactly. Remember Falco in Melee? His recovery was about as crappy as Olimar's is in Brawl, and he was still Top Tier. Now of course Olimar is nowhere as godly as Melee's Falco, but still.

Your new tier list looks good, Lobelia. I still doubt D3's placement but I guess this is still about tournament rankings, not about who's better on paper.

Thank you.
As I said before, I love Olimar both in terms of playstyle and as a character. Perhaps I'm cynical, but I look at the flaws of characters a little too much when analyzing them. Yes, Olimar is amazing...but if he gets knocked off the stage, it's not good for him. The same is true of a much lesser character, my main, Samus. Yes, she has powerful projectiles, but they don't have all the staying power in the world. Hell, Ganondorf can destroy a fully charged Beam on reaction just by pressing A.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

i havent been following this thread, but il throw my ideas into the mix.

5 Tiers - Top, high, mid, low, bottom

Top Tier (In order)
Snake
Meta Knight
ROB
Falco
Game and Watch
Dedede
Donkey Kong

High Tier (no order beyond Marth and Wario)
Wario
Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Pokemon Trainer

Mid Tier (no order)
Zelda/Sheik
Fox
Wolf
-insert more ppl-

Low Tier
-insert ppl here-

Bottom Tier (in order)
Samus
Ganondorf
Sonic
Captain Falcon

...you are my hero

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL!!!

Why are Wario and Marth that low?

Better question would be why are DK and Falco above them?

Are you serious?

Why isn't G&W third.

Chibo you are a cool guy IRL, but your list leaves much to be desired.

 

[Tristan_win]

I like how the mid tier is not in the middle.

Also I LOL at pokmon trainer being higher then Sheik and Zelda.

 

[TehBo49]

@ ChiboSempai: Um, DK is too high & Marth is too low. G&W needs to be 3rd. PT is more middle tier. Sonic is also not that bad.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

LOL!!!

Why are Wario and Marth that low?

Better question would be why are DK and Falco above them?

Are you serious?

Why isn't G&W third.

Chibo you are a cool guy IRL, but your list leaves much to be desired.

-_-
Why am I starting to like Marth as much as you do?

 

[Adapt]

So is the consensus like this:

Top: Snake, MK
High: GaW, DDD, Marth, Falco, ROB

??

With Wario at the start of the next tier? or after ROB?

 

[Blad01]

I don't see why Marth should be higher than Falco...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Doing better in tournies, and has better match-ups overall. Better moveset.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't see why Marth should be higher than Falco...

All of a sudden, Emblem Lord burst through the thread and quoted his previous posts from about 100 pages ago! Blad01's head almost exploded with a wave of knowledge, and Kiwikomix died of overexposure.

Anyway Marth has better matchups and a godly approach game. He can cancel out almost every projectile, and while his range was nerfed, it's still considerable. Falco isn't as fantastic of a counter for the higher tiers as much as Marth is, since most upper tiers have great ways of approaching/have more offensive options. Once Falco's laser spam is breached, he doesn't have enough range or power to make him unbeatable, although cg's are always an option. Plus, Falco's recovery is only decent. That's bad in a game where everyone's recoveries are fantastic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly it really comes down to match-ups.

Falco has characters that counter him like G&W for example.

Marth doesn't.

 

[Xyro77]

the real question is. samus should never be BOTTOM. ever.

 

[TehBo49]

Samus is more low tier. The only characters I think deserve bottom at this moment are Captain Falcon & most likely Jigglypuff.

 

[Adapt]

the real question is. samus should never be BOTTOM. ever.

that not a question


(just saying)


Samus is a character that should never have been touched from melee. And she was nerfed...
If shes not bottom then she's not too far from it

btw I wish grapples could grab onto the side of walls like in melee, that was pretty **** cool for recovery

 

[Snail]

the real question is. samus should never be BOTTOM. ever.

That's what everybody says about their character. Get some tournament results to back it up with... Or at least convince us she's good on paper? (;

 

[Yuna-Maria]

the real question is. samus should never be BOTTOM. ever.

Yes she is, dude...yes, she is.

 

[gantrain05]

All of a sudden, Emblem Lord burst through the thread and quoted his previous posts from about 100 pages ago! Blad01's head almost exploded with a wave of knowledge, and Kiwikomix died of overexposure.

Anyway Marth has better matchups and a godly approach game. He can cancel out almost every projectile, and while his range was nerfed, it's still considerable. Falco isn't as fantastic of a counter for the higher tiers as much as Marth is, since most upper tiers have great ways of approaching/have more offensive options. Once Falco's laser spam is breached, he doesn't have enough range or power to make him unbeatable, although cg's are always an option. Plus, Falco's recovery is only decent. That's bad in a game where everyone's recoveries are fantastic.

while i agree marth does have a very good approach game, i find it to be very predictable and easy to punish, alot of the marths i fight seem to think "oh i get 2 Fairs in one short hop" but really it doesn't help, everybody knows this, and marth is easily grabbed either between Fairs or after his 2nd one, i don't know maybe its becuase im used to playing very good marths in melee's with AT's and such, but it seems to me in brawl, w/out the AT's its very easy to fight marth this time around.

But as for falco i don't know, other than the chaingrab all other aspecs of his game seem to be maybe just above average, and his recovery is predictable, honestly i think both of them should be placed a bit lower, maybe top of upper mid or bottom of top tier.

 

[Snail]

Meh, I don't get the Falco hype either. It's probably the free 40-50% from his chaingrab and the dash-attack cancel they took out in the PAL version... Marth is awesome though. I don't think his only approach is spamming f-air xD

 

[gantrain05]

Meh, I don't get the Falco hype either. It's probably the free 40-50% from his chaingrab and the dash-attack cancel they took out in the PAL version... Marth is awesome though. I don't think his only approach is spamming f-air xD

yeah, im just saying, almost every marth i've played uses that as their approach like 90% of the time, but even so, i think he's alot easier to fight this time around still.

 

[Snail]

Yeah I agree. He's not as cheap as he was in Melee xD I guess the double Fair is just too flashy not to use for most Marths? I don't know a decent Marth really so I can't say I have a lot of experience with them... But I'd think any decent player would stop spamming Fairs if they constantly get shield grabbed after the second one :/

 

[gantrain05]

Yeah I agree. He's not as cheap as he was in Melee xD I guess the double Fair is just too flashy not to use for most Marths? I don't know a decent Marth really so I can't say I have a lot of experience with them... But I'd think any decent player would stop spamming Fairs if they constantly get shield grabbed after the second one :/

yeah =/ you would think they'd learn after the first 2 but they don't seem to, i guess i've seen a few approach with >B but if u roll behind that marth is wide open to punishment, also if u spotdodge any of his smashes it leaves him wide open as well, i just don't think marth has many really safe approaches like snake or diddy do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are insane.

Marth is the embodiment of safe approaches.

The REAL problem is that since Marth is soooooooooo popular there are way too many scrub Marths in comparison to the few good Marths.

How can you accurately judge what Marth can do when you oenly admit you fight bad Marth's that play stupid?

You aren't being fair to Marth.

 

[Snail]

Yeah, looks like it. He's still a very solid character though... I can't see him dropping to mid tier just because his range was nerfed.

 

[Deathcarter]

My tier list:

Top
Snake
Metaknight

High
Game and Watch
DDD
Marth
R.O.B
Falco
Wario

upper-Middle
Olimar
Pikachu
Lucario
Donkey Kong

lower-Middle
Wolf
Pit
Diddy
Toon Link
Kirby (?)
Fox (?)
Zelda (?)
Ice Climbers (?)

Low
(The remaining 17-21 characters)

All of the non tournament viable characters that cannot compete with ANY of the higher ups (Lower Middle IMO is too in-between the good and bad characters) should be placed in low tier. Low tier tournaments FTW!

 

[manhunter098]

Falco really isnt hype. His chain grab can end in a spike on a number of characters he can turn it around with a reverse boost grab as well so he can have a shot at spiking almost no matter where he manages to get a grab as long as its on the main platform, he has power, and his lasers are incredibly useful. The only thing Falco really lacks is a good f-air and recovery, the rest of his moves are all quite solid. Perhaps its just his metagame right now that makes him so good, but there is no question that is is one of the best in the game and is at the very least at the top of high tier, but more than likely top tier material.

 

[Morrigan]

Are you people at least seeing the Character Tournament Ranking list before making these lists? Probably that would help a bit We are discussing the first tier list, not the final one, right? The rankings thread can help you decide about it.

 

[Snail]

Err, so what makes Zelda so infinitely much better than Luigi that she deserves a place on the tournament-viable list and he doesn't?

Seriously, if you're gonna make a tier list, at least make it reasonable. Just squeezing 17 characters in one tier because they "can't compete" makes no sense :D

And yeah, I'm looking at the rankings list. Most people's lists are a mix between tournament results and overall potential - that's why Toon Link isn't bottom tier xD

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Okay, since Emblem Lord ha practically given up on this thread, I think I need to step in to defend Marth.

Projectiles are manageable for Marth in the same way that they are for MK. Marth's Fair, Jab and F-Tilt all swat psychical based projectiles, save Snake's nades, which will blow up in your face if you try. Because of this, Marth can approach almost any character without taking damage.

Only FAST MOVING energy based projectiles like Falco's/ROB's lasers and Pit's arrows cause problems. And those can be avoided with Marth's speed and aerial movement (I think he is 4 or 5th in that category). This quality is similar to those of MK, who uses his mobility to weave projectiles while approaching.

In short, the projectile "issue" is moot. Only a handful of characters can camp Marth, and those characters are quite frankly, capable of camping the entire cast.

So why isn't top tier then? Marth isn't top tier because he isn't "broken". He has no quality that is truly dominating. He merely has above average everything, and a moveset that is entirely usable, allowing him to stay fresh and unpredictable for the entire match. He lacks Snakes dominating stage control, MK's raw laglessness, Falco's and DDD's easy chaingrabs, or G&W's ridiculously safe and powerful kill moves. However, he has a watered down version of each, allowing a skilled player to compete with him against practically any opponent.

Nicely put! :D

Hurray Emblem Lord is back!!!

Still no one has answered my proposal of changing the organization of the Tier List about Bottom being changed into Lower Low Tier or just added to Low Tier

And a question because I can't find any about this... Does Marth have any ATs? (excluding Ken Combo or SH or Spiking if those count, and excluding that Pivot Down Smash thing)

And Deathcarter, don't you think Zamus should be above Low? She has many nice combos involving her DownSmash stun.

 

[Sasha]

You are insane.

Marth is the embodiment of safe approaches.

The REAL problem is that since Marth is soooooooooo popular there are way too many scrub Marths in comparison to the plentiful bad Marths.

How can you accurately judge what Marth can do when you oenly admit you fight bad Marth's that play stupid?

You aren't being fair to Marth.

I lol'd. If only because I'm constantly getting "fair'ed" by Marth.

 

[Deathcarter]

Err, so what makes Zelda so infinitely much better than Luigi that she deserves a place on the tournament-viable list and he doesn't?

Seriously, if you're gonna make a tier list, at least make it reasonable. Just squeezing 17 characters in one tier because they "can't compete" makes no sense :D

And yeah, I'm looking at the rankings list. Most people's lists are a mix between tournament results and overall potential - that's why Toon Link isn't bottom tier xD

Well, Zelda for one has a superb defensive game compared to Luigi. Luigi usually is the one to approach in most of his matchups, and his approach game is nothing to write home about.

Secondly, Zelda could be in the lower mid tier, but honestly, she seems to be in my low tier due to her tournament results. Same goes for Fox and the Ice Climbers.

Third, low tier would actually be low and bottom tier. I just did not take the time to fill in the low tier.

Fourth, I based that tier list partially on tournament results and partially on my previous tier list.

And Finally, name one character who although has bad/horrible matchups, does consistently well in the tournament scene. Generally, a character with low tier potential does not produce mid tier results.

And Deathcarter, don't you think Zamus should be above Low? She has many nice combos involving her DownSmash stun.

Zamus has a hard time kiling foes. Plus, I was pulling a Melee with my tier list with the majority of the cast being in low/bottom tier so Zamus being in low tier is plausible.