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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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Yeah but I'm not like "ZOMG HE NEEDS TO BE 2 FULL TIERS HIGHER THAN THE GENERAL PUBLIC TYPICALLY PLACES THEM!!!"

Even with better tournament results, Kirby still wouldn't move out of the lower portion of the upper (3rd) tier (again assuming a 6 tier system). Outside of ROB, GaW, Snake, and Marth, his match-ups aren't that terrible in the upper tiers and few characters can say that they have the advantage over these characters anyway. A few soft counters, a few easy matches, and a lot of neutral matches are present in the characters above him.
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Actually I'd say he has disadvantages against Falco, MK, and Pikachu, and probably many more that are arguable like Pit, Toon Link etc.. Lets Face it Kirby's overall matchups against potentialTop/High Tiers is not that good at all. I'd say at best he's around the top of Middle in a 6 Tiers system with Top, Very High, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Actually I'd say he has disadvantages against Falco, MK, and Pikachu, and probably many more that are arguable like Pit, Toon Link etc.. Lets Face it Kirby's overall matchups against potentialTop/High Tiers is not that good at all. I'd say at best he's around the top of Middle in a 6 Tiers system with Top, Very High, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom.
Against Falco I could see an even matchup, mainly because Falco is heavily dependent on lasers and the CG, both of which Kirby has ways of getting around through ducking and a light, floaty characteristic. Kirby's awesome recovery also makes him relatively immune to early % spikes, another important part of Falco's game.

Everyone else though... I would be pretty clueless on.

 

jiovanni007

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Actually I'd say he has disadvantages against Falco, MK, and Pikachu, and probably many more that are arguable like Pit, Toon Link etc.. Lets Face it Kirby's overall matchups against potentialTop/High Tiers is not that good at all. I'd say at best he's around the top of Middle in a 6 Tiers system with Top, Very High, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom.
That's exactly why he at least places in the middle of tournament standings. Pit, Pika, and MK all only have slight advantages. Pit has arrows, but has difficulty landing bairs against Kirby and must rely on the fsmash to KO Kirby. Kirby can also gimp Pit easily and lives longer. However Pit's arrows make up for the fact that he dies earlier as Kirby may take 5~10% approaching. Aerial Hammer saves him from horizontal KOs and Pit sucks at KOing vertically.

Pika Does have good priority on his fair, dair and dsmash, but his fsmash can be difficult to land on someone that prefers the air and is outprioritized otherwise. He gets a slight advantage from Thunder. Thunder Jolt is a moot point because you can cancel them out by holding down "A" or stealing his power and spamming back. Pika gets the slight advantage.

MK has great speed, but Kirby kills notably quicker (under 100% on a regular basis) and dies much slower (usually 120% or more). Neither can gimp each other effectively (Shuttle Loop against dairs and Stone against shuttle loops) and neither have projectiles. Kirby's bair has amazing priority and is a low time sex kick as well and is still very effective in approaching. Overall MK gets the advantage due to his high ground speed and better priority. However, this match-up is very manageable for Kirby.

Any Kirby that loses out against Falco need a new main, srsly. Lasers are ducked, he can't be chaingrabbed at all, starshot outprioritizes phantasm and gimps Falco, almost completely outprioritzes and outranges Falco (notable exceptions include Reflector, ftilt, and dair from above), and he dies earlier as well. This match isn't even at all, its 70-30 for Kirby at least.

Toon Link has projectiles and that's it. We all know how hard it is to chain attacks outside of his bair and his recovery is very predictable and easily gimped. He can even be gimped out of his tether since he reels in so slowly. His projectiles are canceled out in the same manner as Pika's with the exception of bombs which happens to leave an opening if he gets to close. Kirby also lives longer unless killed with an usmash and can kill under 100% without gimping.

The only really notable soft counters are IC and Zelda, but then even they underperfom at tournaments.

Most of his matches are neutral or negligible advatanges, with a few counters and advantages scattered about. At least he's not overhyped like TL and Zelda.
 

Dpete

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Meh. I think Kirby is the perfect top for the middle (4th) tier. He is good at everything, but not the best at anything.

Kirby's matchups against upper tier characters really aren't that bad. Outside of Snake, Marth, and ROB, Kirby is capable of competing with the best. Link to the Kirby boards perceived matchups: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103
 

Onomanic

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Marth can be moderately annoying at times with his spamming of the Fair and Sword Dance. It's easy to space between myself and Marth but Marth and fast enough to keep coming. BTW, what projectile do you suggest I use to defend myself against Martha?
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Marth can be moderately annoying at times with his spamming of the Fair and Sword Dance. It's easy to space between myself and Marth but Marth and fast enough to keep coming. BTW, what projectile do you suggest I use to defend myself against Martha?
As Link? Your bombs are your best bet because if I mistime my F-tilt, I get an explosion in the face. Not to mention you can fake out with Bombs with drops -> aerial -> throw and weird stuff like that. That'll help you stay unpredictable.
 

Trespayne

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Trespayne
Here's my updated version of my previous tier list with a few changes. Tell me what you think...

TOP:
Snake
Metaknight
G&W

High:
R.O.B
Falco
Marth
King DeDeDe
Olimar
Lucario
Wario
Pit
Pikachu
Fox
Ice Climbers

Middle:
Zelda
Wolf
Diddy
Toon Link
Luigi
DK
Kirby

Low:
Lucas
Ike
Ness
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
ZSS
Sonic
Shiek
Bowser
Peach
Link

Bottom:
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Samus
Captain Falcon
 

Dpete

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Tier List
You might want to consider a six tier system. It is kind of odd to see your high and low tiers larger than your middle tier. With all the tournament viable characters in brawl, you can create three tiers of characters that can compete and win tournaments.

I think ZSS is a little low, maybe even consider moving her up a tier. Fox and IC, on the other hand, might fit better into your middle tier. These are just little things, as your list has no real glaring problems. Personally, I don't think Luigi is that high, though I don't know a whole lot about him.
 

leelue

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My take after a big smash fest in the bronx

TOP:
Snake * **
Metaknight *
G&W

High:
R.O.B
Falco
Marth
King DeDeDe **
Olimar
Lucario
Wario
Pit
Pikachu
Fox
Ice Climbers

Middle:
Zelda
Wolf
Toon
Diddy
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
DK

Low:
Lucas
Mario
ZSS
Ness
Sonic
PT
Shiek
Peach
Bowser

Bottom:
Link
Yoshi
Jiggly *
Ganondorf
Samus
Captain Falcon

* indicates candidates for god tier
** indicates (jokingly) candidates for tounament banning
 

Deathcarter

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tier list
Ice Climbers are the characters I want to comment on. They are in high-Mid tier. Their tournament results are horrible, they have the disadvantage against anybody with spacing, which is anybody above Lucario. I would place them above Toon Link.

Also DK should be in the Ice Climbers place. His matchups are very out there, but he has the 8th best tourney results.

And I agree with above poster's post. Six tier system and ZSS higher.

leelue tier list
Dude, did you base that tier list on the previous poster's tier list. Except for low tier, everything looks almost identical to Trespayne's. Either that or we have a VERY good idea on what the first tier list is going to look like. No offense dude.
 

Swordplay

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Marth can be moderately annoying at times with his spamming of the Fair and Sword Dance. It's easy to space between myself and Marth but Marth and fast enough to keep coming. BTW, what projectile do you suggest I use to defend myself against Martha?

As link....Zair...Spam it and spam it hard on marth.. It outranges and outpriorities Marths fair approach and even SHDFair approach.

Bombs might be nice but since marth will try to get close you might blow yourself up or he could catch it.

Links best strategy is abusing zair and it actually works really well against non-campers like marth...who ain't metaknight.....
 

Yuna-Maria

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These are in order.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth

High-Mid:
Wolf
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wario
Luigi

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness

Low-Mid:
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Link

Low:
Ganondorf
Mario
Jigglypuff
Sonic


Bottom:
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
Samus
 

Snail

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These are in order.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth

High-Mid:
Wolf
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wario
Luigi

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness

Low-Mid:
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Link

Low:
Ganondorf
Mario
Jigglypuff
Sonic


Bottom:
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
Samus
Dedede seems a bit high. He has an awesome chaingrab and is certainly a good character but not the third best in game :/ He should be below everyone else in your high tier in my opinion.

Olimar for mid tier is a bit low ._. I might be biased since I main him, but everything about him is amazing except the recovery. And his tourney results > Toon Link's.
 

Yuna-Maria

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Dedede seems a bit high. He has an awesome chaingrab and is certainly a good character but not the third best in game :/ He should be below everyone else in your high tier in my opinion.

Olimar for mid tier is a bit low ._. I might be biased since I main him, but everything about him is amazing except the recovery. And his tourney results > Toon Link's.
That may be true. I'm biased, however. I play Desu sometimes, and he's the best Brawler in Georgia...and a King Dedede main.
I put Olimar as mid tier because of his light weight and poor recovery. He's godlike otherwise.
 

Adapt

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DDD is doing ridiculously well in tourneys. In the current state of the game he is top 5 without question. His only thing is he has a few nasty matchups. (which ppl just have MK and a secondary cuz he seems to do very well against DDD's bad characters)
 

Kiwikomix

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@ Lobelia: Your bottom tier confuses me. It's not so much that Yoshi is there that bothers me as much as Cpt Falcon isn't last. And I understand that being a Samus main would help you understand all her faults, but is she really the worst?
Wolf is a bit too high (he's basically just getting worse nowadays, or at least not getting better at the same rate the others are), and Luigi is far too high. Zelda and Kirby need to move up about six or seven places each. Otherwise pretty good.
 

Yuna-Maria

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@ Lobelia: Your bottom tier confuses me. It's not so much that Yoshi is there that bothers me as much as Cpt Falcon isn't last. And I understand that being a Samus main would help you understand all her faults, but is she really the worst?
Wolf is a bit too high (he's basically just getting worse nowadays, or at least not getting better at the same rate the others are), and Luigi is far too high. Zelda and Kirby need to move up about six or seven places each. Otherwise pretty good.
I genuinely believe that Samus is the worst fighter in the game. Captain Falcon has high mobility and moderate KO power, two things that Samus wishes she had. Also, Samus dies quickly, has a mediocre projectile game that most people can blaze right through, and falls slower than anyone except Jigglypuff.
I agree with you on Wolf. I was going to put him at the bottom of high-mid. Luigi is as high as he is mostly due to my frustration with fighting him, but it's cool now. Here:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth

High-Mid:
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wario
Olimar
Wolf

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Kirby
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ike
Ness

Low-Mid:
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Link

Low:
Ganondorf
Mario
Jigglypuff
Sonic


Bottom:
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
Samus


How's this?
 

Kiwikomix

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I also don't know if Pit should be that low. And Mario should be low-mid.
The seven-tier system is interesting, I haven't seen that before. But if you do that you'll have to really think about the cutoffs for each tier.
 

Yuna-Maria

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I also don't know if Pit should be that low. And Mario should be low-mid.
The seven-tier system is interesting, I haven't seen that before. But if you do that you'll have to really think about the cutoffs for each tier.
Mario's only ranked so low because he's really lackluster and doesn't particularly excel at anything. Also, there are his tournament rankings to consider.
As for Pit, he's a VERY gimmicky character, which means that a Pit main has to be significantly smarter than their opponent in order to win. Also...his balls haven't dropped.

coreygames: You won't see me playing Melee anytime soon either. I'm not really playing Smash anymore. I'm just using my knowledge of both games, my knack for analysis, and my charming voice to be a color commentator at all the Smash get-togethers I go to. I'm the Jim Ross of Super Smash Bros. up in here.
 

CT Chia

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i havent been following this thread, but il throw my ideas into the mix.

5 Tiers - Top, high, mid, low, bottom

Top Tier (In order)
Snake
Meta Knight
ROB
Falco
Game and Watch
Dedede
Donkey Kong

High Tier (no order beyond Marth and Wario)
Wario
Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Pokemon Trainer

Mid Tier (no order)
Zelda/Sheik
Fox
Wolf
-insert more ppl-

Low Tier
-insert ppl here-

Bottom Tier (in order)
Samus
Ganondorf
Sonic
Captain Falcon
 

Browny

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G&W deserves his own tier between Snake tier and High tier. IMO hes not in the same league as snake and MK, but hes way better than everyone else.
 

Corigames

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1. I must be a **** genious then

2. Tell that to his star KO sound FX

3. It's true about Mario

3. Is there a point to any list aside from God tier right now... maybe high but even that's pushing it >_>
 

Adapt

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well to be fair, high tier has a decent chance too, maybe one or 2 below that like lucario/dk... but after that there's really not a lot of point
 

Yuna-Maria

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well to be fair, high tier has a decent chance too, maybe one or 2 below that like lucario/dk... but after that there's really not a lot of point
Yeah, I'd say that if your character is widely regarded as being lower on the tier list than...say...Fox, then I hope you like losing, because you'll be doing a lot of it. I think that beyond the top ten on Ankoku's rankings, there's very few fighters that stand a chance of victory, if any. Reminds me of Melee to a degree. After Ganondorf, there really aren't many characters winning tourneys. Maybe Link and WEEGEE.
 

Adapt

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Yeah, I'd say that if your character is widely regarded as being lower on the tier list than...say...Fox, then I hope you like losing, because you'll be doing a lot of it. I think that beyond the top ten on Ankoku's rankings, there's very few fighters that stand a chance of victory, if any. Reminds me of Melee to a degree. After Ganondorf, there really aren't many characters winning tourneys. Maybe Link and WEEGEE.
Which kinda makes me sad, cuz while I am decent with marth/ROB, I just don't find them as fun to play compared to mid-tier characters like ZSS, and Zelda/Sheik.
 

Yuna-Maria

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Which kinda makes me sad, cuz while I am decent with marth/ROB, I just don't find them as fun to play compared to mid-tier characters like ZSS, and Zelda/Sheik.
I love playing as Samus. I just constantly lose with her due to her sucking. However, I just took a look at Ankoku's character rankings, and apparently Samus, ZSS, and Captain Falcon are higher on the list now than Ike, Lucas, and Toon Link. Weird.
 
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