Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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lol Olimar is top tier.
Toon Link is awesome, but...

Marth is nowhere near as amazing as people suggested

Pikachu, and Diddy for some reason seem underrated

Wario's attacks are NOT that hard to hit with. Have you seen a good Wario? They can hit with fart and fsmash. Their hitboxes are ridiculous with high priority. He isn't Olimar, but he sure as heck ain't worse than a lot of characters.

Sonic gets outranged.

Badly outranged. Olimar is top tier.

Why no flower love?
um, I am a good wario
trust, the hardest thing about wario is to hit with fsmash, fart, or up air. Downsmash is kinda fast but stays out WAY too long.
If u dont believe the good wario part, lemme get that fc yo
 

maian

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I've never been into tier lists much, and I'm not going to put a lot of thought into this. BUT, from what I've played, I'm going to cast out some predictions of mine.

Toon Link: Geez, he's gotta be at least High Tier. He is good. I mained YL in Melee, and only just recently learned he was actually considered a bad character. I began looking at tier lists and stuff when someone playing Falco beat my YL when he really wasn't as good at the game as me.

...But comparing the two, Toon Link DOMINATES Young Link. He's so incredibly fast, and hardly has lag. His knockback is exceptional, and comboing ability is insane. I can't get enough of his aerial attacks, and I love his Dair, and yes, have realized the potential downsides of it. But I love him, and can defintely see him making top or high tier.


As far as others go, I haven't played a lot of characters enough to fully realize their potential, especially because I haven't been fighting anyone my skill level yet. But really rough impressions (And this is just how my list would be, I'm sure many disagree):

Pikachu: Super awesome, way buffed. High tier?

Kirby: Way better than Melee, at least. Not back to Kirby64, but pretty close. I like, because Kirby was my
main way back in the 64 era. I see him being at least mid tier, if not high is used efficiently.

Snake: The X Factor. He truly is a completely strategic character. I see him sucking in anybody's hands who hasn't mastered him. But for the people who have...watch out.

Link: Nerf gun. Although I used him for most of SSE, he suffers in a lot of areas. Slow, etc. At least I've got my Toon Link! I'd say low tier.
 

HZ514

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This is just my two cents worth from my personal experience, based off of who I'm good with, who I've seen others be good with, and who the cpu is good with. It's not definitive, but it's also not random guesswork. =D (I'm also just addressing 1-on-1 battles, because it gets really screwy to try to address full brawls also)

Top Tier
Marth is the ONLY member of the Top Tier. (I only ever use him in competitive fights, as it's just mean to beat up on new players who are still getting used to Brawl. They won't even have time to test out all their attacks before you finish them off). It's almost as easy as breathing to use his aerials, and chaining them is pretty much your opponent's death warrant. His improved side-B is a heck of a lot better in melee and can actually be useful. His down air takes some getting used to in order to spike consistently, but it's a pretty awesome edgeguard with little danger if you jump toward the stage right when you use it.
Summary? With one opponent to focus on, I can't see why you wouldn't win with Marth. Intelligent use of techniques combined with a healthy dose of mindgames and trickery should seal your opponent's fate.

High Tier
Pikachu. Very quick, surprisingly powerful, and a real pain to get kills on with his recovery. It's also really funny to triple thunder someone off the top.

Olimar. His range is blasphemous with all his pikmin out. His aerials somehow dominate. As long as you don't forget to bring your pikmin out after losing a stock (it will happen...) you're set to win.

Toon Link. Fast, still has Link's double f-smash, his down air is nothing short of murderous if used correctly, and good recovery. For extra intimidation, change to his black costume for demon link.

Wolf. His side-smash is a dash attack, his dash attack is an up-smash, and his up-smash launches like crazy. He's heavy enough not to get pummeled like his SF adversaries, his side-B going somewhat up opens up a lot of possibilities, and the end of his recovery comes with a slash that can actually kill someone who was careless enough to get hit by it.

Ike. He definitely doesn't have Marth's speed, but his power is absolutely obscene. He kills most characters at damages they shouldn't even go off the stage at. It takes a good amount of prediction skills to land most of his attacks (assuming your opponent is a functioning human being) and he's pretty open after some of them, but his power is just so astronomical that you probably only need to land 3-4 attacks to kill someone.

Mid/Low Tier
(Instead of listing all of these, I'll just address why some of these aren't High Tier, because I'm assuming people will ask those questions.)
Sheik. It might be just be, but she just doesn't seem as cheap as she was in melee.
Snake. He's far too slow, at least for me. In the time it takes him to USE his f-smash, some characters could finish him off. While he's excellent fun in group matches, from using his mine to owning with his final smash, he's far too easy to predict and run circles around in a 1-on-1 situation.
Captain Falcon. He could very well end up in the top tier, but he seems way too spazzy and way too light to be effective. He's up for interpretation.
Diddy Kong. Lots of people praise Diddy, but I'm just not seeing it. To be honest, there are probably Diddy mains who are very good with him, but like I said, this is based off of what I've personally experienced, and I haven't seen him be good.

Low Tier (read: sucky)
Mr. G&W. A mediocre smash player could predict everything G&W could do, and barring straight 9's on his side-B, there's not much you can do with him.
R.O.B. I don't understand why he's even here. He has everything you wouldn't want in a brawler, from being easy to edgeguard to being slow without the power to make up for it.

Feel free to critisize. =P
 

BigRick

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I thought Tier Lists were based on how often characters are used in tournaments..
lol dont try to act like a smartass

tier lists simply ranks the characters from best to worst

its just that the last one that the SBR did for melee was based approximately on tourney results, but its still isn't how often a char is used
 
D

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Everyone says yoshi is gonna be low tier, but i disagree. I'd say probably mid tier. A bunch of his moves got range and power buffs, his grabs are very usable now, he can edgeguard well, and hes very hard to follow in the air. He may have lost djc, but without it, it opens alot of possibilities and gives him amazing juggling abilities. Also, his super armor frames in his 2nd jump are more powerful. No jump out of shield is still painful, and he definately has his weaknesses, but he is much improved.
 
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Umm....can I rest my case now? ;)

I think meta knight should be very high on the tier list, due to gay comboing and decent, albeit hard to learn killing ability. Also, ROB should be higher on the tier list due to being MUCH harder to edgeguard, and also for having homo attacks.
 

psychic turnip

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i believe Zelda will be at least higher in the tier then she was in melee. When she uses falores wind (teleporting thing) where ever she lands an explosion happens. Also her dins fire has when it explodes farther range to hit the character.
 
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This is just my two cents worth from my personal experience, based off of who I'm good with, who I've seen others be good with, and who the cpu is good with. It's not definitive, but it's also not random guesswork. =D (I'm also just addressing 1-on-1 battles, because it gets really screwy to try to address full brawls also)

Top Tier
Marth is the ONLY member of the Top Tier. (I only ever use him in competitive fights, as it's just mean to beat up on new players who are still getting used to Brawl. They won't even have time to test out all their attacks before you finish them off). It's almost as easy as breathing to use his aerials, and chaining them is pretty much your opponent's death warrant. His improved side-B is a heck of a lot better in melee and can actually be useful. His down air takes some getting used to in order to spike consistently, but it's a pretty awesome edgeguard with little danger if you jump toward the stage right when you use it.
Summary? With one opponent to focus on, I can't see why you wouldn't win with Marth. Intelligent use of techniques combined with a healthy dose of mindgames and trickery should seal your opponent's fate.

High Tier
Pikachu. Very quick, surprisingly powerful, and a real pain to get kills on with his recovery. It's also really funny to triple thunder someone off the top.

Olimar. His range is blasphemous with all his pikmin out. His aerials somehow dominate. As long as you don't forget to bring your pikmin out after losing a stock (it will happen...) you're set to win.

Toon Link. Fast, still has Link's double f-smash, his down air is nothing short of murderous if used correctly, and good recovery. For extra intimidation, change to his black costume for demon link.

Wolf. His side-smash is a dash attack, his dash attack is an up-smash, and his up-smash launches like crazy. He's heavy enough not to get pummeled like his SF adversaries, his side-B going somewhat up opens up a lot of possibilities, and the end of his recovery comes with a slash that can actually kill someone who was careless enough to get hit by it.

Ike. He definitely doesn't have Marth's speed, but his power is absolutely obscene. He kills most characters at damages they shouldn't even go off the stage at. It takes a good amount of prediction skills to land most of his attacks (assuming your opponent is a functioning human being) and he's pretty open after some of them, but his power is just so astronomical that you probably only need to land 3-4 attacks to kill someone.

Mid/Low Tier
(Instead of listing all of these, I'll just address why some of these aren't High Tier, because I'm assuming people will ask those questions.)
Sheik. It might be just be, but she just doesn't seem as cheap as she was in melee.
Snake. He's far too slow, at least for me. In the time it takes him to USE his f-smash, some characters could finish him off. While he's excellent fun in group matches, from using his mine to owning with his final smash, he's far too easy to predict and run circles around in a 1-on-1 situation.
Captain Falcon. He could very well end up in the top tier, but he seems way too spazzy and way too light to be effective. He's up for interpretation.
Diddy Kong. Lots of people praise Diddy, but I'm just not seeing it. To be honest, there are probably Diddy mains who are very good with him, but like I said, this is based off of what I've personally experienced, and I haven't seen him be good.

Low Tier (read: sucky)
Mr. G&W. A mediocre smash player could predict everything G&W could do, and barring straight 9's on his side-B, there's not much you can do with him.
R.O.B. I don't understand why he's even here. He has everything you wouldn't want in a brawler, from being easy to edgeguard to being slow without the power to make up for it.

Feel free to critisize. =P
ROB= Easy to edgeguard?
Definitely wrong. His upB is insane, and he can attack in between upB.
He's definitely on the slower side, but as far as his power goes, you just have to reach his full potential (which I have no clue on how to reach)
 

posh

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i think tiers are when two exactly same skilled people choose a character which one would win


but that would mean that olimar is lower then he should be...because once you practice with him a lot he should be top tier

so i dunno
 

Ikural

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i think tiers are when two exactly same skilled people choose a character which one would win


but that would mean that olimar is lower then he should be...because once you practice with him a lot he should be top tier

so i dunno
Not quite. Captain Falcon countered Marth, but resided below him on the list. In essence this is a factor, but it does not decide the list, because there's a very slim chance that one character counters everyone.
 

OoNoiRoO

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I thought Tier Lists were based on how often characters are used in tournaments..
I agree with that in a way, so thus...

Snake, Metaknight, Zelda, Marth, and Olimar have a high place up there for sure for now.

Not quite. Captain Falcon countered Marth, but resided below him on the list. In essence this is a factor, but it does not decide the list, because there's a very slim chance that one character counters everyone.
True. IMO, character counter picks may be more viable and meaningful in Brawl than in Melee. At least that's what it feels like. But then there's always a character that has the advantage over most, like Sheik in Melee.
 

bigcman

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Don't bother if you hate Family Guy-style humor. That, and it's off-topic.
It's not off-topic considering it's about tiers and this thread is about tiers. Nice one, ace.

Secondly, the whole point of the video is to make fun of people who take things like tier lists way too seriously. There's more to life than Smash tournaments.
 

I.T.P

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I've played quite a few matches this past weekend, and I've realised my errors about a few characters, I might make some changes in my list tommorow morning and repost it.
 
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It's not that complicated. Tier lists are determined by the characters' number of good matchups as opposed to bad ones. Characters at the top of a tier list should have at least a slight advantage against most characters (6-4) excluding possible counters. Characters at the bottom of a tier list should have at least a slight disadvantage against most characters (4-6) excluding match-ups where they counter others.

The character's quality doesn't directly determine his place on the tier list, but it does indirectly. In example, say a character could one-hit kill anybody with an EXTREMELY slow attack. That's an amazing quality on paper, but let's imagine other characters can dodge with EXTREME ease. That means the one-hit kill character has a disadvantage against all of those people, because he can't land a hit. Hence he would be at the bottom of the tier list.
 

Zink

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It's not that complicated. Tier lists are determined by the characters' number of good matchups as opposed to bad ones. Characters at the top of a tier list should have at least a slight advantage against most characters (6-4) excluding possible counters. Characters at the bottom of a tier list should have at least a slight disadvantage against most characters (4-6) excluding match-ups where they counter others.

The character's quality doesn't directly determine his place on the tier list, but it does indirectly. In example, say a character could one-hit kill anybody with an EXTREMELY slow attack. That's an amazing quality on paper, but let's imagine other characters can dodge with EXTREME ease. That means the one-hit kill character has a disadvantage against all of those people, because he can't land a hit. Hence he would be at the bottom of the tier list.
that's not quite true. when phanna made a matchup tier list, it didn't really line up with the real one that well (I think falco was the best). Matchups are important, yes, but not everything. and all matchups are weighted differently. if CF can destroy all low-mid tier characters but gets owned by high-top tiers, that's not very viable, and he'd be a counterpick character at best.
 
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It's not that complicated. Tier lists are determined by the characters' number of good matchups as opposed to bad ones. Characters at the top of a tier list should have at least a slight advantage against most characters (6-4) excluding possible counters. Characters at the bottom of a tier list should have at least a slight disadvantage against most characters (4-6) excluding match-ups where they counter others.

The character's quality doesn't directly determine his place on the tier list, but it does indirectly. In example, say a character could one-hit kill anybody with an EXTREMELY slow attack. That's an amazing quality on paper, but let's imagine other characters can dodge with EXTREME ease. That means the one-hit kill character has a disadvantage against all of those people, because he can't land a hit. Hence he would be at the bottom of the tier list.
Agreed.

10charizardsgettingRARb-airedtodeathbytoonlink
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Why don't we go about determining the tier list a bit more statistically this time around rather than basing it on tournaments? Because I don't believe character popularity should effect their tier rating.

Not that many people actually LIKE Mr. Game and Watch (compared to how many fans Marth has, for example) so he will get less play time, regardless of whether he's a good character or not.
 

Ikural

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Why don't we go about determining the tier list a bit more statistically this time around rather than basing it on tournaments? Because I don't believe character popularity should effect their tier rating.

Not that many people actually LIKE Mr. Game and Watch (compared to how many fans Marth has, for example) so he will get less play time, regardless of whether he's a good character or not.
Well, do you have a suggestion of how to do it more statistically? Tournament standings are statistics, they are how well the character's been placing within the scene.

I believe it should be based on a combination of results and factual stats about the charaters, which is what we are working with now. Don't worry it won't be completely about tournaments, but they do, and should, play a role.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Well, do you have a suggestion of how to do it more statistically? Tournament standings are statistics, they are how well the character's been placing within the scene.

I believe it should be based on a combination of results and factual stats about the charaters, which is what we are working with now. Don't worry it won't be completely about tournaments, but they do, and should, play a role.
I was thinking more like a careful assessment of what each character is capable of at data level . Stuff like analysis of frame data, consideration of power, speed, weight, projectile coverage, etc. Perhaps a sort of point system or something, as well as who counters said character and who they counter themselves.

For example, if you compare Captain Falcon to the majority of the cast, you can clearly see that his problems lie in overall priority on his attacks, (or lack of it) and landing lag on his aerials. He doesn't have too many approach options, his defensive game isn't overly solid, he's not fast, not powerful considering the speed of his moves, and doesn't apparently have any other shining properties that make up for these problems.

Compare that to someone like Toon Link then...you have great priority on his attacks due to disjointed hitboxes, and good range considering how fast they come out. Has a strong projectile game with quite a few ATs that allow him even more flexibility in projectile use, which also gives him a good approach. All around his attacks are useful and safe, and he has both the ability to combo and KO, amongst many other things.

I'm sure that if we complile a detailed list of each character's good and bad points, as well as what they're capable of in comparison to other characters, it'll at least make it easier to sort the cast into groups which can then be nit-picked further to determine a solid tier list.
 

Shaftobi

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Hmm, idk some ppl dont follow the tier list SOMETIMES. I mean look at Gimpy, Bowser wasnt high on the tier list but he did great with him. I'm just saying lol. I'd definatly say Luigi is definatly up there this time around though IMO. XP
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Hmm, idk some ppl dont follow the tier list SOMETIMES. I mean look at Gimpy, Bowser wasnt high on the tier list but he did great with him. I'm just saying lol. I'd definatly say Luigi is definatly up there this time around though IMO. XP
Tier lists aren't supposed to factor skill, just which characters have the better tools. Gimpy just happens to be able to work really well with the tools that Bowser has.

And yeah, Luigi's jab-jab-Up B combo is huge enough to give him high priority on the tier list no matter what. It's like a combo that starts with a 3-frame attack that kills at 70% and up for most characters...
 

Ikural

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I was thinking more like a careful assessment of what each character is capable of at data level . Stuff like analysis of frame data, consideration of power, speed, weight, projectile coverage, etc. Perhaps a sort of point system or something, as well as who counters said character and who they counter themselves.

For example, if you compare Captain Falcon to the majority of the cast, you can clearly see that his problems lie in overall priority on his attacks, (or lack of it) and landing lag on his aerials. He doesn't have too many approach options, his defensive game isn't overly solid, he's not fast, not powerful considering the speed of his moves, and doesn't apparently have any other shining properties that make up for these problems.

Compare that to someone like Toon Link then...you have great priority on his attacks due to disjointed hitboxes, and good range considering how fast they come out. Has a strong projectile game with quite a few ATs that allow him even more flexibility in projectile use, which also gives him a good approach. All around his attacks are useful and safe, and he has both the ability to combo and KO, amongst many other things.

I'm sure that if we complile a detailed list of each character's good and bad points, as well as what they're capable of in comparison to other characters, it'll at least make it easier to sort the cast into groups which can then be nit-picked further to determine a solid tier list.

Thank you, this is the kind of answer I was hoping for. And yes, I completely agree, not much else I can say, but tournament standing HAS to play a factor, even if it's minimal, because there could be a character that's theoretically top due to everything, but is humanly improbable to play at a high level because of restrictions such as human reaction time.

We just can not rely solely on one method, and I know my arguement here is unlike expecially within smash, and I'm exaggerating greatly, but the point is evident. Both things must be considered.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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*WARNING, RANT APPROACHING*

The number of "LOL ALL SONIC DOES IS RUN FAST" still baffles me.

I have seen good Sonics. SEEN THEM. GOT MY *** KICKED BY THEM. And what do these morons do?

"LOL NO KILL MOVES"

As I said before, THAT'S NOT THE ****ING POINT. Metaknight has the same problem. I see tons of people suggesting he chase foes out. Why does Metaknight get this suggestion and not Sonic? Are we too busy bawwing over irrelevant performance over past games (sure didn't stop Fox?). Were we expecting some epic superkill character and disappointed we got someone more balanced? I have a motto for approaching Sonic:

lrn2chase

If you do not heed this motto, you're not using Sonic right and you suck with him period.

And how come nobody talks about Mario? NOBODY talks about Mario! He has it even worse than Sonic. At least I get "Sonic sux!" Every time I ask about Mario, they're like "who's that?". *RAGE*

[/end angry rant]
 

Metzger

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I like Mario. :O

I worry about his recovery though. Lost the Down-B for recovery, Side-B doesn't seem to do nearly as much anymore... and seriously, why the **** can't FLUDD help him with recovery when the whole **** game it comes from has Mario doing insane flying jump things with it? SAKURAIIIII!!!! /lulz

I agree about Sonic. I think people need to start getting after people vertically in particular. His Up-B has insane height and he's one of the few that can act after performing it. I don't think he's amazing or anything but the advantages he does have are pretty powerful in the context of this game's pacing.
 

Yonder

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Personally I really don't find any characters bad, they can all win matches, well that is everyone EXCEPT Link. Link is slightly better, but he didn't improve as much as everyone else, he'll probably be low tier.

Some of the better character out there in my opinion are:

1.Toon Link
2.Wolf
3.Pit
4.Metaknight
5.Olimar
6.Lucas
7.Luigi
8.Marth
 
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*WARNING, RANT APPROACHING*

The number of "LOL ALL SONIC DOES IS RUN FAST" still baffles me.

I have seen good Sonics. SEEN THEM. GOT MY *** KICKED BY THEM. And what do these morons do?

"LOL NO KILL MOVES"

As I said before, THAT'S NOT THE ****ING POINT. Metaknight has the same problem. I see tons of people suggesting he chase foes out. Why does Metaknight get this suggestion and not Sonic? Are we too busy bawwing over irrelevant performance over past games (sure didn't stop Fox?). Were we expecting some epic superkill character and disappointed we got someone more balanced? I have a motto for approaching Sonic:

lrn2chase

If you do not heed this motto, you're not using Sonic right and you suck with him period.

And how come nobody talks about Mario? NOBODY talks about Mario! He has it even worse than Sonic. At least I get "Sonic sux!" Every time I ask about Mario, they're like "who's that?". *RAGE*

[/end angry rant]
Yea, I agree, a lot of people don't know how to use Sonic because oh lololololol he can't kill anyone. He's still a good character and can rack up some good damage quickly and, yea, he's fast enough to tech chase, among other things.
 
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sonic has the same problem as meta knight has in regards to kill moves. however, MK has a lot of things that sonic doesnt have... superior range, faster attacks, and a really good recovery. a fast running speed is not good enough compensation in my eyes
 
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sonic has the same problem as meta knight has in regards to kill moves. however, MK has a lot of things that sonic doesnt have... superior range, faster attacks, and a really good recovery. a fast running speed is not good enough compensation in my eyes
Of course it is, Sonic is the new Captain Falcon, minus the killing ability, obviously. Captain Falcon was one of the easiest characters to gimp in melee, and it was easy to be predictable with him. But he was godly fast and had good aerial priority, and if you were unpredictable enough, and you knew his moveset well enough, you could be very good. Sonic is the same, except you can't gimp him like that, and Sonic doesn't have a knee or lots of priority. .......which sort of makes him an entirely different character......shut up XD but yea, as long as you aren't predictable, Sonic is a good character, and the thread that themagicalkuja made teaches you how to make up for it.
 
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This topic is clearly a waste of everyone's time at this moment. it nessesary for tournament placing on a large scale before any deliberation should be made.

Good Day Sirs.
well, this debating doesn't really do anything for tier-related discussion, but it does give people something to think about when using characters. I mean, everyone thinks sonic sucks because he's counter-intuitive to use, but hearing from someone who knows how to use sonic really helps (even if it was all common sense.......which most of you don't have anyway ;))

I for one like talking about a certain character, hoping that someone will disagree with me, so I can get a little more insight on that character. on that note, meta knight is complete and utter **** :)
 

Serris

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I was thinking more like a careful assessment of what each character is capable of at data level . Stuff like analysis of frame data, consideration of power, speed, weight, projectile coverage, etc. Perhaps a sort of point system or something, as well as who counters said character and who they counter themselves.

Well, by that statement, Samus will probably make it into mid or high tier this time around. She doesn't seem to have any landing lag whatsoever.
 

BigRick

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It's not that complicated. Tier lists are determined by the characters' number of good matchups as opposed to bad ones. Characters at the top of a tier list should have at least a slight advantage against most characters (6-4) excluding possible counters. Characters at the bottom of a tier list should have at least a slight disadvantage against most characters (4-6) excluding match-ups where they counter others.

The character's quality doesn't directly determine his place on the tier list, but it does indirectly. In example, say a character could one-hit kill anybody with an EXTREMELY slow attack. That's an amazing quality on paper, but let's imagine other characters can dodge with EXTREME ease. That means the one-hit kill character has a disadvantage against all of those people, because he can't land a hit. Hence he would be at the bottom of the tier list.
That's a good breakdown... however it wont be as simple cause there's like 30+ chars meaning 450+ matchups lol :dizzy:

About the Sonic and MK comparison... MK is considered good because even though he can't kill, he can easily pressure an opponent and rack up damage with his uber pokes. Can Sonic rack up the damage like MK can?
 
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That's a good breakdown... however it wont be as simple cause there's like 30+ chars meaning 450+ matchups lol :dizzy:

About the Sonic and MK... MK is considered good because even though he can't kill, he can easily pressure an opponent and rack up damage with his uber pokes. Can Sonic rack up the damage like MK can?
Sonic is very quick, and a lot of his moves combo into other moves. Also, he can tech chase due to gratuitous amounts of speed.

EDIT: ...in theory, anyway, I can't remember what moves you gotta use to get guys to hit the ground :)
 
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