Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Ch0zen0ne]

Mario can UpB out of anything though.. so it is quite difficult to gimp him... unless he is spiked.

 

[Matador]

His Up-B isn't that great, and since he's fairly floaty he's easy to edge guard.

His Up-B has insane priority, and, thanks to Brawl's mechanics, is great for recovery because of the auto sweet-spot. Coupled with fireballs to prevent ledgehog, the cape to prevent projectiles like Snake's Side B, DDD's Neutral B, and Falco's laser spam (Not to mention the vertical rise it comes with), Mario's recovery is better than many. Maybe not distance wise, but certainly not easy to gimp.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

His Up-B has insane priority, and, thanks to Brawl's mechanics, is great for recovery because of the auto sweet-spot. Coupled with fireballs to prevent ledgehog, the cape to prevent projectiles like Snake's Side B, DDD's Neutral B, and Falco's laser spam (Not to mention the vertical rise it comes with), Mario's recovery is better than many. Maybe not distance wise, but certainly not easy to gimp.

True, but compared to the majority of everyone elses recovery his isn't that great.

Pit is way better than Mario. His B is better, I prefer Pits >B, Pits ^B alot better, \/B is debatable.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, I find that when a Pit and Mario player are about equal in skill, Pit has the edge in general. I assume you disagree, so, why?

Pit's arrow camping is severly hindered by Mario's cape, his recovery is gimped easily by fireballs, They have about equal range and variety of kill moves, and they're about the same speed. I think that makes the match neutral.

Edit: Unusual_Rex, I want your reasoning. Mario's fireballs are MUCH better for set-ups than Pit's neutral B, Mario's cape serves heaps more purpose than Pit's Side B (Recovery, gimping, reflecting projectiles, as well as to kill an opponent's momentum while they're comboing), The Fludd and Pit's shield are, I think, equally situational, and Pit's Up B is terrible.

Edit Edit: Isomorphism, if you recall, Mario's tornado in melee was more for stalling than for recovery. He gained little distance and barely any height from it, and it killed all aerial momentum. Losing that barely hurt his recovery. His horizontal distance isn't excellent, but his double jump covers more horizontal ground than most if paired with his cape, making it more than decent, and he's difficult to edgeguard. That makes him at least average in the recovery department.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pit's arrow camping is severly hindered by Mario's cape, his recovery is gimped easily by fireballs, They have about equal range and variety of kill moves, and they're about the same speed. I think that makes the match neutral.

2 words... "disjointed hitboxes".

Pit's two reflectors also mess with the fireball game very badly, and mario has a lot of trouble recovering due to his low distance ^b. Really, it comes down to melee ability and mobility here, and for both, Pit has the edge.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Pit's arrow camping is severly hindered by Mario's cape, his recovery is gimped easily by fireballs, They have about equal range and variety of kill moves, and they're about the same speed. I think that makes the match neutral.

Edit: Unusual_Rex, I want your reasoning. Mario's fireballs are MUCH better for set-ups than Pit's neutral B, Mario's cape serves heaps more purpose than Pit's Side B (Recovery, gimping, reflecting projectiles, as well as to kill an opponent's momentum while they're comboing), The Fludd and Pit's shield are, I think, equally situational, and Pit's Up B is terrible.

Pits ^B Terrible? Since when has Mario be able to flay around whole stages? Pits ^B is also a semi counter, he has arrow looping, Pit will also rarely need to use his ^B in the first place. >B may also be debatable. In certain situations, it will force an opponent off the stage, give you advantage.

 

[St. Viers]

^^your showing your lack of knowledge unusual rex. Go look at pit boards, and then come back and say why pit's up B isn't that great (I'll give you a hint--it begins with G)

@matador--you actually gained height, and could DI it towards the stage in melee, you just had to mash at 10 presses a second ^_^

 

[Matador]

2 words... "disjointed hitboxes".

Pit's two reflectors also mess with the fireball game very badly, and mario has a lot of trouble recovering due to his low distance ^b. Really, it comes down to melee ability and mobility here, and for both, Pit has the edge.

Disjointed hitboxes mean more priority than anything in this matchup. If you compare attacks like their Bair, Fsmash, and Dsmash, you see that they have about equal range. Mario's Fireball approach may be hindered by Pit's reflectors, but the lag that each reflector beings leaves him open. Using fireballs to bait him into reflecting to gain an opening is very possible. Mario's WoP Bairs is a more viable approach in this matchup either way.

I also disagree that Mario's up B has low distance. Pit's is gimpable, Mario's isn't.

Edit: @St. Viers- True, but, given Brawl's mechanics, there's barely any difference in his recovery. Many find it better because Mario's nado was actually required at times to recover and left him open to gimping and spikes.

 

[sagemoon]

Okay i'm a pit main and a pretty decent one at that. My friend is a mario main, he's pretty decent too.

Since I play him pretty often, here's what I have to say about the matchup. It's even from my experience, mario has a slight advantage at most. Pit's reflectors are terrible against the fireballs. Side b will lead to mario forward smashing pit in the face. Even if pit catches mario in the side b, mario will most likely di out of the move before pit finishes. Down b for some reason will only be a reliable reflecter towards fireballs when pit is on the ground (pit cant short hop and down b, thus limiting a lot of approaches). Plus mario doesn't have to worry about pits mirror shield when attacking.

Pit can use his up b to negate and approach mario while he is fireballing w/ wingdashing. (look up wingdashing if you dont know what that is). Although pits arrow game is nerfed from the cape, it's still effective enough against mario if the pit player is smart. Pit can gimp marios up b w/ the mirror shield too. mario can gimp pits up b (if pit has to use it, which is rare)

Overall, pit can stack damage faster than mario, but mario has more knockback and range. This makes the matchup pretty even in my opinion.

 

[jiovanni007]

No official list is out yet. Kirby is around Low-Mid, or High-Low,

Kill yourself now, but before that go watch some Kirby vids and read my posts in this thread for answers.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And when you say Mario's up B isn't gimpable, do you realize that Mirror shield turns people around just like the cape does? Pit's recovery also rarely requires him to use his up B (Gliding FTW) and even when he does he has no problems just flying under the stage to reach the other side.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

^^your showing your lack of knowledge unusual rex. Go look at pit boards, and then come back and say why pit's up B isn't that great (I'll give you a hint--it begins with G)

@matador--you actually gained height, and could DI it towards the stage in melee, you just had to mash at 10 presses a second ^_^

What gimp? His up B may not be good for recovery but it has lots of other uses (wing dash, and others).

Kill yourself now, but before that go watch some Kirby vids and read my posts in this thread for answers.

I'm not saying Kirby is bad, I'm saying other characters are way better than him.

 

[jiovanni007]

What gimp? His up B may not be good for recovery but it has lots of other uses (wing dash, and others).



I'm not saying Kirby is bad, I'm saying other characters are way better than him.

You can choose ignorance, but you will suffer when a Kirby comes outta left field and kicks your ***. Like I said, read my posts, they're actually unbiased even though I'm a Kirby main.

 

[Kaizo]

What gimp? His up B may not be good for recovery but it has lots of other uses (wing dash, and others).



I'm not saying Kirby is bad, I'm saying other characters are way better than him.

Kirby actually stands up to some of the better characters fairly well. Obviously he has tough matches with Snake and MK, but he plays very well against everyone else.

 

[Matador]

Okay i'm a pit main and a pretty decent one at that. My friend is a mario main, he's pretty decent too.

Since I play him pretty often, here's what I have to say about the matchup. It's even from my experience, mario has a slight advantage at most. Pit's reflectors are terrible against the fireballs. Side b will lead to mario forward smashing pit in the face. Even if pit catches mario in the side b, mario will most likely di out of the move before pit finishes. Down b for some reason will only be a reliable reflecter towards fireballs when pit is on the ground (pit cant short hop and down b, thus limiting a lot of approaches). Plus mario doesn't have to worry about pits mirror shield when attacking.

Pit can use his up b to negate and approach mario while he is fireballing w/ wingdashing. (look up wingdashing if you dont know what that is). Although pits arrow game is nerfed from the cape, it's still effective enough against mario if the pit player is smart. Pit can gimp marios up b w/ the mirror shield too. mario can gimp pits up b (if pit has to use it, which is rare)

Overall, pit can stack damage faster than mario, but mario has more knockback and range. This makes the matchup pretty even in my opinion.

That's so freaky. I was just watching ur matches vs Fear. More than pretty decent, it opened my eyes to how good pits use Up B and arrows. I still believe the match is even, but I'll admit that my opinion did wane quite a bit while watching.

@Sonicwave: Agreed, completely ungimpable is not what I wanted to say. Still, however, less prone to it than Pit's. Gliding, however, can be hindered by the Fludd, pushing him further from the stage, forcing Pit to glide lower to gain more vertical height. This now leaves him vulnerable to a variety of edgeguards. Also, Mario's cape is an attack that reverses direction, but Pit's shield must be attacked. If you sweet spot, it's not a big problem whereas Mario can be more aggressive with his.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

@Jiovanni007

Dude, I'm not gonna search through 500+ pages to find stuff posted by you.

The highest I can see Kirby placed is Mid-Mid, which is exactly were the character rankings list place him. He's an average character.

The only things that may help him is advantage over DeDeDe, Olimar, R.O.B, and he's neutral with Wario.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, in brawl, simply DIing towards the diaponal kill zone, wiggling out and drifting is > mario's old PTP

 

[isomorphism]

Haha, I didn't realize we were actually directly comparing the Brawl recovery to Melee. Is there even a single character with worse recovery in Brawl? It's just that when you factor in how vastly improved everyone's recovery is, I'm don't know that Mario's recovery is all that good, especially if you're basing that on his having both jumps.

 

[Kaizo]

@Jiovanni007

Dude, I'm not gonna search through 500+ pages to find stuff posted by you.

The highest I can see Kirby placed is Mid-Mid, which is exactly were the character rankings list place him. He's an average character.

The only things that may help him is advantage over DeDeDe, Olimar, R.O.B, and he's neutral with Wario.

Wait, are you talking about character matchups thread?

okay, you automatically fail. Good day

 

[Blad01]

The best list i've found... :

Hello all ! I propose my own tier list, please feedback and say what you think is wrong, i will explain my self

Please note this : This list is NOT based on tournaments results or popularity, just on each character potential in the game.

- Top Tier -

1) Snake
2) MetaKnight
3) Falco
4) Game & Watch

- Very High Tier -

5) Marth
6) ROB
7) Ice Climbers
8) Wario
9) Toon Link
10) Pikachu

- High Tier -

11) King Dedede
12) Zelda
13) Olimar
14) Pit
15) Wolf

- Middle [High] Tier -

16) Diddy Kong
17) Fox
18) Mario
19) Lucario
20) Luigi
21) Donkey Kong
22) Lucas

- Middle [Low] Tier -

23) Kirby
24) Sonic
25) Zero Suit Samus
26) Bowser
27) Pokemon Trainer
28) Ness
29) Peach
30) Sheik
31) Link

- Low Tier -

31) Samus
32) Yoshi
33) Ganondorf
34) Ike
35) Jigglypuff
36) Captain Falcon

Last Updates :

[06/02 : List created. It will be updated when i feel like it should ^^]

Mine

I'm not sure about Olimar and Bowser.... Maybe too high.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Wait, are you talking about character matchups thread?

okay, you automatically fail. Good day

Ummm... how do I fail? Were else would I look for information? I look at the rankings list aswell. Give me a better source and I'll use it. Other wise start post helpful information, instead of trying to be a cocky know it all.

Also at Blad01, not bad, I notice that you had bowser fairly high, maybe move him down a bit. Olimar could be up a bit, same with Pit and Wolf. Then again as of now nothing is certain. (Except that Snake and MetaKnight are almost certainly top tier.)

 

[Matador]

lol, Ike's bottom tier

 

[jiovanni007]

@Jiovanni007

Dude, I'm not gonna search through 500+ pages to find stuff posted by you.

The highest I can see Kirby placed is Mid-Mid, which is exactly were the character rankings list place him. He's an average character.

The only things that may help him is advantage over DeDeDe, Olimar, R.O.B, and he's neutral with Wario.

His only bad mtch-ups out of the already agreed on best characters are IC, Pika, Meta, Marth, GaW, and Toon Link. In a 6 tier system (Top, High, Upper, Mid, Low, Bottom) I rank him 13 which means he still has at least neutral match-ups against 7 other characters. Wolf, Falco, and Dedede are all in favro of Kirby, regardless of what that flawed match-up chart says. With the other 4 being neutral, his spot is clearly in favor of my argument. Also, please don't use the tourney standings as evidence seeing as Toon Link, Zelda, and Ice Climbers are below him in the standings and they are all generally regarded as better characters (Zelda is debateable). Use better proof for please or I'll be forced to rant once again on why Kirby is better than average.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Is there even a single character with worse recovery in Brawl?

Off the top of my head: Squirtle (similar recovery concept to Mario, but without the Cape to help him, and his Side B is easy to gimp) and definitely Ivysaur (I will argue that Ivysaur is actually worse than Olimar's because he moves so slowly through the air). Possibly Bowser.

Mario's recovery really isn't that bad. He's just not COMPLETELY AMAZING at recovering like say, Meta Knight.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Swap Ike with Link and readjust it more. Ike isn't bottom tier. Link is. Link is crap.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Swap Ike with Link and readjust it more. Ike isn't bottom tier. Link is. Link is crap.

As much as I like Link, is is pretty crappy. I wouldn't go as far as bottom, most likely, Low, or Low-Mid.

@Jiovanni007, were should I get my info from then? I'm not gunna get it from a biased player, I think the Matchup chart is semi-accurate, although it could use work, the rankings thread seems good to me due to actual results. Tell me were I should get my info from.

 

[Blad01]

Ummm... how do I fail? Were else would I look for information? I look at the rankings list aswell. Give me a better source and I'll use it. Other wise start post helpful information, instead of trying to be a cocky know it all.

Also at Blad01, not bad, I notice that you had bowser fairly high, maybe move him down a bit. Olimar could be up a bit, same with Pit and Wolf. Then again as of now nothing is certain. (Except that Snake and MetaKnight are almost certainly top tier.)

Bowser : Yes i agree, i think that i should move him down a bit.

Olimar : Awful recovery, that is the only reason that prevent him from being higher than High Tier.

Pit : Hum, yeah, i should maybe move him up... But i can't see him higher than Toon Link / Pikachu / King Dedede...

Wolf : No, i think that this placement fits him perfectly. He's not as good as we thought, and can be easily beaten by the Top Tier / Very High Tier.

lol, Ike's bottom tier

That's what Ike deserves. And i think that i put him at the fair place. Horrible recoveries, and largely countered at high-level play.

 

[isomorphism]

Off the top of my head: Squirtle (similar recovery concept to Mario, but without the Cape to help him, and his Side B is easy to gimp) and definitely Ivysaur (I will argue that Ivysaur is actually worse than Olimar's because he moves so slowly through the air). Possibly Bowser.

Mario's recovery really isn't that bad. He's just not COMPLETELY AMAZING at recovering like say, Meta Knight.

I kind of meant characters transitioning to Melee from Brawl, so I wasn't really thinking about Squirtle, Ivysaur or Olimar. I don't use Bowser much so I don't know why his recovery would be worse--does he not sweetspot in Brawl? Actually, now that I think about it, I can think of a recover who might have worse recovery--Samus. She was already floaty in Melee and bomb jumping for recovery was a lot more versatile there than it is in Brawl. Also she didn't suck in Melee, but that not a recovery issue

Edit: Oh, I see. You thought I was talking about Mario's recovery and asking "does any character have worse recovery than Mario in Brawl?" when I meant "does any character have worse recovery in Brawl than he or she did in Melee?" Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Kaizo]

Ummm... how do I fail? Were else would I look for information? I look at the rankings list aswell. Give me a better source and I'll use it. Other wise start post helpful information, instead of trying to be a cocky know it all.

Also at Blad01, not bad, I notice that you had bowser fairly high, maybe move him down a bit. Olimar could be up a bit, same with Pit and Wolf. Then again as of now nothing is certain. (Except that Snake and MetaKnight are almost certainly top tier.)

Well the problem is only that the people making the thread don't know the matchups for a lot of the characters, and either base it off of popular opinion or personal experience, which is only credible if

a) the person making it is very good
b) they have played very good people who are very good with various characters

That's why I know things about Bowser, Olimar, MK, DK, Snake, G&W, ROB, Luigi, and a bunch of various other characters. No one can know everything, but to base your deductions off of that thread is silly because it's somewhat incomplete/inaccurate.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

@Blad01 - Yeah, Wolf is probably right, but maybe move Zelda down, she is a lot better but not amazing.

@Kaizo - Were should I base my finding off then?

 

[St. Viers]

talk to good chars, and lurk in all the char specific boards. seriously, that and personal experience (against decent brawlers, or in talking to some of the actually good players) is where I get my info, plus 100s of hours of playing/watching vids, which reveals the uses of chars moves, and tricks that a char has against another char--like roll to autohog as an ike gimp, or bowsers flame, or ike'sf-tilt even if the ike di's his sword through into the stage--things like that.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I watch load of videos. I'm currently redoing my tier list which will hopefully be more accurate. I'm pretty sure I have Top, high, and bottom down.

 

[fkacyan]

The matchups thread is pointless. All that really has useful information is the rankings thread, but even that has to be taken with a grain of salt due to the fact that the representation for each character is different.

 

[jiovanni007]

As much as I like Link, is is pretty crappy. I wouldn't go as far as bottom, most likely, Low, or Low-Mid.

@Jiovanni007, were should I get my info from then? I'm not gunna get it from a biased player, I think the Matchup chart is semi-accurate, although it could use work, the rankings thread seems good to me due to actual results. Tell me were I should get my info from.

Match-up chart = inaccurate
Tournament standings = more accurate, but not 100%

Talk to some good players who main characters. They will tell you honestly where they have trouble spots without bias. I consider myself to be an above average Kirby player and I know exactly where his weak points are and how to overcome trouble spots when they occur. I also know that even if I play my best and make no mistakes, I can still lose matches to those who play better characters better than me. If you want to see some good Kirby vids, I reccomend looking at Gonzo's, Hiro's, and someone else, but their name escapes me at the moment.

 

[???????]

Just so you are all aware, Mario's Up B can be "aimed" straight up vertically. Additionally, Mario's Up B has some invincibility frames while the attack is in progress.

*I'll leave my opinion out of the tier discussion for now, but I'll leave you with this: Mario is not low tier, take this statement as you will*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well the problem is only that the people making the thread don't know the matchups for a lot of the characters, and either base it off of popular opinion or personal experience, which is only credible if

a) the person making it is very good
b) they have played very good people who are very good with various characters

That's why I know things about Bowser, Olimar, MK, DK, Snake, G&W, ROB, Luigi, and a bunch of various other characters. No one can know everything, but to base your deductions off of that thread is silly because it's somewhat incomplete/inaccurate.

But it's a starting point, cite inaccuracies and then they can be debated.

That's how things like this are supposed to work, people take a look and say, "no this match-up isn't correct, and this is why", then people debate on it until one side is proven wrong and the match-up chart gets edited.

This happens when players who have both of the above attributes and/or have discovered something new that changes things and/or have technical data critique the match-ups.


So yes, obviously the match-up thread isn't the be-all end-all of who's a better character, but it is a more then reasonable null hypothesis to use as a starting point. If you disagree with it's conclusions, post your criticism either on the thread, or here as they become relevant and we can discuss it.

 

[Aeothera]

But it's a starting point, cite inaccuracies and then they can be debated.

That's how things like this are supposed to work, people take a look and say, "no this match-up isn't correct, and this is why", then people debate on it until one side is proven wrong and the match-up chart gets edited.

This happens when players who have both of the above attributes and/or have discovered something new that changes things and/or have technical data critique the match-ups.


So yes, obviously the match-up thread isn't the be-all end-all of who's a better character, but it is a more then reasonable null hypothesis to use as a starting point. If you disagree with it's conclusions, post your criticism either on the thread, or here as they become relevant and we can discuss it.

I agree with him adumbrodeus on this one.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Same here.

 

[ragnarock]

I don't meen don't any disrespect to anyone by saying this, but why is some people so stuck on a tier for a game that just came out I think you just at least give it a year then make your judgements. Even though some match are easy to point out.

 

[SaxDude93]

Ditto to the debatable match-up thing