Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[BDawgPHD]

Are you implying that that this controller method instantly means you can't play as well? That's a rather short sited comment. =P

If the tourney was gamecube controllers instead of wiimotes/nunchaku, the control scheme would be far more familiar, meaning the tournament outcome would have actually been based on skill, as opposed to people just randomly swinging their nunchaku around, or being rich enough to own the wii and a copy of brawl before the tournament. You wouldn't know unless you entered the tournament.

Ike plays really well online because when it's laggy and dodging isn't as effective his super powerful but slow attacks work extremely well. A similar effect can be reproduced by giving people unfamiliar controls, their movements/dodging are going to be much worse than usual (As well as their reaction times) and a character that can just swing away with no finesse needed to get kills is going to do better than they deserve to based on actual character ability.

You explained it far better than I could have. Thinking about the control scheme distracts immensely from the game, and being a character whose every move ***** people helps a little bit, even if people would normally be able to dodge them.

Well... the D-pad can be used as a C-stick, to preform aerials and smashes. Because you can set the pad up to jump, move and do the aerial with three different fingers effortlessly... heck the Wiimote/Nunchuck set up seems pretty good.

FACT.

The only issue I have with the Wiimore/Nunchuck setup is batteries...

I agree, wiimote/nunchaku is actually a good controller to use...if it didn't take more than a minute to figure out, I'd be the winner of the tournament. Better yet, there'd be far fewer Ikes winning any of those tournaments because most of Ike's can be dodged/avoided. I mean it's not painfully simple, but a good player would know how to deal, and there are plenty of better starting characters.

Well, considering that the three Pokemon have different portraits, movesets, and even win poses, I'd say comparing them to Zelda/Sheik isn't a bad idea. And by your logic, Zelda and Sheik are the same character.
Zeldeik?
But yeah, most tier lists separate them, and place Ivysaur in the low or bottom tier for a reason. Sure, she has range, but her priority is shot. That's also, to a lesser extent, Captain Falcon's problem.

It doesn't make a bit of difference guys......PT is going to be rated as a whole character and as three different characters due to the nature of his play. Bringing Zelda and Sheik into this argument is pointless.

Besides the C-stick argument presented, there's also the fact that the Gamecube controller simply has 7+ years on any of the other control schemes, and thus has familiarity going for it. It is also by far the most intuitive and easy to grasp - Not only is everything placed so that you don't have to move any of your fingers more than a centimeter at a time (barring C-stick usage), but everything is also conveniently sized.

The Nunchuck is a bit weird to work with, though viable with some tweaking and practice (Melee veterans, I imagine, would probably find it too troublesome to work with when they already have the aforementioned 7 years of GC controls). One shoulder button is for shielding, and the one right next to it is for jumping? I mean you COULD use two fingers back there and solve that problem, but it really just feels like using both feet to work the gas and brake pedals of a car.

I have no experience with Classic controllers, but they do have the problem of batteries.

The Sideways Wiimote is a joke. The game is utterly unplayable on a competitive (or even intermediate, really) level while using that. Double-tapping the directional pad for running or falling through platforms,and really awkward positioning of the Shield button (I for one cannot set my fingers in a way that allows easy access to the button without also risking accidental pushing of it) is ... bad.

I'm sorry, but anyone who uses Razor Leaf at a range that could be described as "punishable by Jiggly Counterattack" deserves whatever he gets. I don't have much experience with Ivysaur, but I'm reasonably confident enough in his range and priority that he can deal with a medium-range Jiggs without resorting to a laggy projectile.

I love you, man, you're such a badass <3

 

[1HKO]

ivysaur is the best

squirtle pwns you

charizard has firre

blarglarglargl

don't forget that IKE is better than IVsaur, pwns more than squirtle, and is to good to have fire. LOL
anyways you all can see that I hate PT, so for now on all the tier lists I make PT will be right above Sonic! :.psycho chuckle: is rightfully deserved for this one!

 

[FezNess]

ok changing the subject.

NESS.

I think that he stands a chance at making a good showing. Probably middle to upper middle tier.
Yoshi might break through to upper middle and ever lowever high tier. I dont have a Wii of my own (not till august ) but i play whenever I can. I think yoshi and ness make very strong showings, especially compared to melee

oh yea and cuz they are my mains

 

[marthsword]

flyingpork: Diddy belongs in high tier. His bananas can be used against him, easily edgeguarded recovery, light weight, lacks KO power. Ivysaur is definitely better than Peach and all the others you named. Also Sonic.

St. Viers & Kwikimox or whatever: It's tough between Ivysaur and Wario. I am an Ivysaur player, and I'm going to have to say wario. Wario is not slow, its a misconception. His aerial movement is insane, and 4 of his aerials are auto canceled. His dair is the greatest in the game and spammable. His recovery is good distance-wise, he can WOP effectively. He's better by a very small margin though.

DarkKnight: Sonic is low-low tier or high-bottom. His aerial game would be good, but sucks because he has no priority.

Everybody: Marth is not top. His range was too nerfed. He is high-high/middle-high.

 

[The_Dyne]

Sonic cannot be bottom if he has won tourneys... tiers are based on tourney results, after all. Tiers cannot be decided accurately without more tourneys.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Everybody: Marth is not top. His range was too nerfed. He is high-high/middle-high.

And his power was buffed, and his side B and up B were buffed, and his shield breaker was buffed, and his counter was buffed. Yeah, I'm not seeing that much of a downside here. Almost every one of his attacks can be used as a kill move, with the exception of d-tilt (except for edgeguarding. It still does that on some characters) side B, and counter (though sometimes that works too.) He's easily low-top/high-high.

 

[salaboB]

Sonic cannot be bottom if he has won tourneys... tiers are based on tourney results, after all. Tiers cannot be decided accurately without more tourneys.

Pichu could win tournies given the right player, so Sonic winning even a few of them doesn't prove anything by itself.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ever play a game called Guilty Gear?

In Guilty Gear even bottom tiers place well in tournies and sometimes they win.

Brawl just might be the kind of game where any character can win.

Which is why a tier list should be match-up based. Tourneys can be skewed based on who was played and based on how balanced the game is in the first place. Match-ups how ever are set in stone.

That said, I know Sonic has won a tourney here and there, but Snake, MK and a few of the better characters have won quite a few more.

I DO think pretty much any character in Brawl can place well. I mean SilentSpectre has been doing well with Ganon and CF. But it doesn't change the fact that the top tiers have the best match-ups overall.

People should listen to me.

I know what I'm talking about.

Also Sonic has lousy match-ups. Therefore he is mid tier at best.

 

[leelue]

Just to clarify
Snake/MK (barely)>Pit>Others>OwnBiasedOpinion>Garbage/Ganon>Mewtwo>Sonic

 

[Velda]

Maybe we should make a non smash back room tier list. It might work like this, we have 80 points to give to every character depending on how good we think they are, the points every body gives every character are all tallied up and whoever has the most points is at the top, going down.

 

[flyingpork002]

flyingpork: Diddy belongs in high tier. His bananas can be used against him, easily edgeguarded recovery, light weight, lacks KO power. Ivysaur is definitely better than Peach and all the others you named. Also Sonic.

St. Viers & Kwikimox or whatever: It's tough between Ivysaur and Wario. I am an Ivysaur player, and I'm going to have to say wario. Wario is not slow, its a misconception. His aerial movement is insane, and 4 of his aerials are auto canceled. His dair is the greatest in the game and spammable. His recovery is good distance-wise, he can WOP effectively. He's better by a very small margin though.

DarkKnight: Sonic is low-low tier or high-bottom. His aerial game would be good, but sucks because he has no priority.

Everybody: Marth is not top. His range was too nerfed. He is high-high/middle-high.

Alright, I think that is fair, i like how you actually made reasons why instead of just saying he sucks. I think thats viable. He should be either top or high tier but he will probably make high because NOone at tourneys plays as him, strange. I think he looks awesome and hes one of the more popular nintendo characters. I thought he would be more popular. Maybe after he makes high tier people will start using him more.

 

[flyingpork002]

Maybe we should make a non smash back room tier list. It might work like this, we have 80 points to give to every character depending on how good we think they are, the points every body gives every character are all tallied up and whoever has the most points is at the top, going down.

that would not work because some characters are waaay underrated and rarely used (diddy kong). While others are maybe overrated in some areas and people all think they are gods. (spacies, marth) That wouldn't be a tier list, it would be a popularity contest.

 

[TehBo49]

But that would just turn into a popularity contest. Too many people here don't know enough to accurately make those kinds of decisions. Thus, we should stick to discussion.

Also, I agree with Emblem Lord. The tier list should be matchup based.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Pichu could win tournies given the right player, so Sonic winning even a few of them doesn't prove anything by itself.

For now, it depends on who wins tournaments. As I've said before, the tier list is dynamic, and will always be changing. However, the reason that SBR hasn't come out with a tier list yet is because it's far too early to determine tier placings because the meta game hasn't developed enough yet.

But that would just turn into a popularity contest. Too many people here don't know enough to accurately make those kinds of decisions. Thus, we should stick to discussion.

Also, I agree with Emblem Lord. The tier list should be matchup based.

That's sort of true, although a character that has mostly matchups that go even could easily be top tier, so how would you decide?

Further than matchups, you need to look at how effectively a character minimizes risk and controls the space around him

 

[Time2Brawl]

Well, I'd put Lucas at least high or mid tier. He has a wide variety of techniques.

Fox, Falco and Wolf would be at least mid tier as well.

And Diddy Kong would be at least mid tier.

 

[Crizthakidd]

ive seen some really beast olimar players that really know how to use what pikmin.

but honestly snake is..... can i say it?

 

[BDawgPHD]

ive seen some really beast olimar players that really know how to use what pikmin.

but honestly snake is..... can i say it?

.....sporting a giant *****?

 

[flyingpork002]

diddy kong is definety not mid tier, hes at least high. Go to youtube and look up diddy kong king. Thats some nasty **** that PaOol can do with his diddy kong. Its amazing. When you see that maybe you'll see why diddy kong is so good. His bananas set up for beast combos and the spike is deadly. He doesnt need other ways of killing, hes such a good edgeguarder.

 

[flyingpork002]

again, mid tier doesn't mean good, it means average. I would say diddy kong is above average. Above average is what high tier means. And top tier means they are just beastly and some might even say cheap or broken.

 

[Grandeza]

^^
I too agree that Diddy is high tier. He's a great character with more strengths than weaknesses.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'd like to remind people that any character can be good when in the right hands, but the point of a tier list is to measure the characters abilities, not the players. In the future when more is known about the game, tier lists should be solely based upon match-ups. We should count up the amount of good, fair, and bad match-ups and rank characters accordingly to how their overall match-ups look. Certain characters may have an arsenal of useful abilities, but all of it's meaningless if they don't have many good match-ups to apply them in. So by this logic:

Top = Mostly good match-ups
High = Mostly good and fair match-ups
Mid = Mostly fair match-ups
Low= Mostly fair and bad match-ups
Bottom = Mostly bad match-ups

So get to work finding out those match-ups.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I'd like to remind people that any character can be good when in the right hands, but the point of a tier list is to measure the characters abilities, not the players. In the future when more is known about the game, tier lists should be solely based upon match-ups. We should count up the amount of good, fair, and bad match-ups and rank characters accordingly to how their overall match-ups look. Certain characters may have an arsenal of useful abilities, but all of it's meaningless if they don't have many good match-ups to apply them in.

if said character has so many useful abilities, what makes you think a character with not-so-useful abilities is going to beat the hell out of them?

match ups aren't everything. cool it with the buzz words.

 

[Corner-Trap]

if said character has so many useful abilities, what makes you think a character with not-so-useful abilities is going to beat the hell out of them?

match ups aren't everything. cool it with the buzz words.

Well a character with a bunch of useful abilities should obvisously have the better match-ups, but there is still the possibility that they may not.

And how are match-ups not everything? There is absolutely no point in a character ranking high on a tier list if they don't have good match-ups. Nearly every other fighting game community bases their tier lists solely on matchl-ups, and they have came out to be very accurate. Match-ups for the most part are easier to judge then which character does the best in a variety of areas. It isn't hard to tell if a character is at an advantage or disadvantage vs. another.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Well a character with a bunch of useful abilities should obvisously have the better match-ups, but there is still the possibility that they may not.

And how are match-ups not everything? There is absolutely no point in a character ranking high on a tier list if they don't have good match-ups. Nearly every other fighting game community bases their tier lists solely on matchl-ups, and they have came out to be very accurate. Match-ups for the most part are easier to judge then which character does the best in a variety of areas. It isn't hard to tell if a character is at an advantage or disadvantage vs. another.

that's what makes match ups useful, and i agree that they help us tremendously in judging characters.

i'm just saying, there are other things we can look at besides match ups... and match ups aren't even black and white affairs where one character gets a check and the other gets an x. it's just not as simple as saying "look at the match ups!" and walking away.

 

[Pierce7d]

if said character has so many useful abilities, what makes you think a character with not-so-useful abilities is going to beat the hell out of them?

Easy. Sometimes characters have useful abilities that are good against some characters, and not really against others. Simplest example to quickly think of:

Falco laser spam owns characters with inferior or no projectiles, but it's not really useful against Fox, who can just turn on his reflector.

 

[Corner-Trap]

that's what makes match ups useful, and i agree that they help us tremendously in judging characters.

i'm just saying, there are other things we can look at besides match ups... and match ups aren't even black and white affairs where one character gets a check and the other gets an x. it's just not as simple as saying "look at the match ups!" and walking away.

Match-ups are far more accurate then saying "hey this character does good in these areas so he should be higher on the tier list." Match-ups may have that grey area, but judging characters based on how they do in a variety of areas comes with an array of unknown colors. Judging match-ups are more objective, while judging how well a character does in certain areas is more subjective.

EDT:

Easy. Sometimes characters have useful abilities that are good against some characters, and not really against others. Simplest example to quickly think of:

Falco laser spam owns characters with inferior or no projectiles, but it's not really useful against Fox, who can just turn on his reflector.

Thats what I'm saying. Just because Falco has SHDL which gives him good camping, doesn't mean we should go off saying he should be higher on the tier list, when SHDL is completely useless in several match-ups.

 

[TehBo49]

if said character has so many useful abilities, what makes you think a character with not-so-useful abilities is going to beat the hell out of them?

match ups aren't everything. cool it with the buzz words.

Someone in this thread posted the best definition of a tier list that I ever heard. It sounded something like this:

If we took the best players of each character & had all of them play each other, the tier list would be the ranking of each character's win-loss record from best to worst.

So yes, matchups are very important.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Match-ups are far more accurate then saying "hey this character does good in these areas so he should be higher on the tier list." Match-ups may have that grey area, but judging characters based on how they do in a variety of areas comes with an array of unknown colors. Judging match-ups are more objective, while judging how well a character does in certain areas is more subjective.

EDT:



Thats what I'm saying. Just because Falco has SHDL which gives him good camping, doesn't mean we should go off saying he should be higher on the tier list, when SHDL is completely useless in several match-ups.

well look, i agree with you, analyzing match ups is really helpful. all i'm saying is, that's not ALL we have, and running around the boards turning everything into a matchup discussion is forsaking other areas that we could ALSO be looking at.

EDIT:

Someone in this thread posted the best definition of a tier list that I ever heard. It sounded something like this:

If we took the best players of each character & had all of them play each other, the tier list would be the ranking of each character's win-loss record from best to worst.

So yes, matchups are very important.

seriously, i'm not saying match ups are pointless, i just don't think we should make that into the only thing that's considered. that's all.

 

[marthsword]

And his power was buffed, and his side B and up B were buffed, and his shield breaker was buffed, and his counter was buffed. Yeah, I'm not seeing that much of a downside here. Almost every one of his attacks can be used as a kill move, with the exception of d-tilt (except for edgeguarding. It still does that on some characters) side B, and counter (though sometimes that works too.) He's easily low-top/high-high.

Up B was barely buffed, and still doesn't compare to most recoveries. His side B still barely has a use, and is worse recovery-wise. Shield breaker again still doesn't have much of a use, and no longer has the arc, so is harder to hit with. All of his moves can kill except d-tilt? Don't think so. I agree with high-high.

 

[BDawgPHD]

well look, i agree with you, analyzing match ups is really helpful. all i'm saying is, that's not ALL we have, and running around the boards turning everything into a matchup discussion is forsaking other areas that we could ALSO be looking at.

EDIT:



seriously, i'm not saying match ups are pointless, i just don't think we should make that into the only thing that's considered. that's all.

I agree completely, especially when there are a few characters that might not have amazingly stacked matchups but could still be top tier, especially if their matchups go even with top tiered characters. Also, Falco's SHDL might be useless in some matchups, and some characters might even be able to duck under his shine, but then he can use tilts and aerials. SHDL and shine limit approach options from other characters a great deal, which is what gives him very good matchups in the first place.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hello marthsword.

I suggest you read the following threads pertaining to Marth.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166145

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164063

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160740

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165861

 

[BDawgPHD]

Up B was barely buffed, and still doesn't compare to most recoveries. His side B still barely has a use, and is worse recovery-wise. Shield breaker again still doesn't have much of a use, and no longer has the arc, so is harder to hit with. All of his moves can kill except d-tilt? Don't think so. I agree with high-high.

I think he lost speed since Melee, and due to the defensive nature of Brawl, he's not as effective as he used to be, since his approaches don't work well. As a camper, he's excellent as long as he's playing against someone without a good projectile, but otherwise he's forced to approach, and a smart player will know everything that Marth can approach with and counter it. I'd say even lower than high-high, but I'm not sure of the placement exactly.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I agree completely, especially when there are a few characters that might not have amazingly stacked matchups but could still be top tier, especially if their matchups go even with top tiered characters. Also, Falco's SHDL might be useless in some matchups, and some characters might even be able to duck under his shine, but then he can use tilts and aerials. SHDL and shine limit approach options from other characters a great deal, which is what gives him very good matchups in the first place.

If a character doesn't have mostly good match-ups then they shouldn't be top tier in the first place. If said character has mostly good and fair match-ups then they should simply be placed in high tier. Of course we shoud look at other things other than match-ups. Evaluating a character approach, camping, ground game, air game, edgeguarding, recovery, KO's, etc. are all very important. But ultimately they all lead up to how useful they can be in a match-up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

BDawg: What?

Seriously...what?

Dude I don't think you have put half as much research into MK as I have into Marth. Don't say such nonsense as his approaches don't work well. That is just ridiculous. He has like 3 bad match-ups and that's pretty much it.

You can't compare Marth to what he once was. He plays differently and his tools are different.

Don't try to tell me his approach isn't good. You are talking to the guy who is at the forefront of Marth's Metagame.

 

[Corner-Trap]

To clear things up, when creating a tier list we evaluate a character's abilities. Then we compare that character's abilites to all the other characters and see how they relate. This is what we deem as match-ups since thats how characters relate to each other. So to the people saying that there is more to be looked at other than match-ups when deciding a tier list, well there really isn't since match-ups account for nearly everything.

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawg: What?

Seriously...what?

Dude I don't think you have put half as much research into MK as I have into Marth. Don't say such nonsense as his approaches don't work well. That is just ridiculous. He has like 3 bad match-ups and that's pretty much it.

You can't compare Marth to what he once was. He plays differently and his tools are different.

Don't try to tell me his approach isn't good. You are talking to the guy who is at the forefront of Marth's Metagame.

I don't research, I just kind of play, and use moves, and stuff happens.

I've played most of the characters in the game enough, and sure, I know MK far better than I know any other character, but I know most of the other characters pretty well, including Marth. He's a pretty good character, but at the pro level players aren't going to sit there and get their shields broken. They're going to spot dodge, or even better....power shield. He has good range, but so do many other characters, some of which also have projectiles. Projectile spam forces Marth to approach. He can swat most of it down, or just air dodge it, but it forces him to approach, and more than likely approach in a specific way, and a good camper will recognize his range and can control his approach....I'm not saying Marth has no chance, I'm just saying that he can't force things like you think he can.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Up B was barely buffed, and still doesn't compare to most recoveries. His side B still barely has a use, and is worse recovery-wise. Shield breaker again still doesn't have much of a use, and no longer has the arc, so is harder to hit with. All of his moves can kill except d-tilt? Don't think so. I agree with high-high.

Up B-Invincible frames 1-5. Attacks on frame 5(that's right, you're invincible until your sword actually hits them.) Increased knockback. Hits behind you when reverse up Bing now. Increased recovery range.

Side B-Increased speed (comes out in 4 freakin' frames. It's faster than a Jab) both on startup and from hit to hit. Increased shield damage. The hits also now link to each other effectively giving Marth a 16% jab combo of sorts

Shieldbreaker-increased base shield damage. Increased horizontal range. Increased knockback both charged and uncharged. Now gives a horizontal boost when used in the air (including a massive horizontal boost when fully charged). Shortenned charge time.

When Tipped all of his attacks kill. F-smash, Up smash, and D-smash all got a power boost (that's right. F-smash is actually stronger now). Fair now acts like Shiek's fair in melee when tipped, Nair and Bair are even stronger than his fair when tipped, and Uair is extremely effective on floatier characters. F-tilt got stronger, U-tilt got stronger, and they were already decent at killing when tipped. Shield breaker got stronger, fourth hit Up on side B is also a decent killer. Up B is still strong like it was in melee. Down B's power depends on what move hits it, but it lasts forever just like it did in melee (only now it doesn't just do 7 damage). It easily sets up for edgeguarding opportunities.

That's every move except jab and downtilt buddy. When we say Marth has a lot of kill moves, we aren't kidding.

 

[Emblem Lord]

BDawg: I talk about all that in Marth's match-up threads. Honestly Marth outclasses alot of characters at close range. If those characters didn't have projectiles to help them Marth would run through them since he has better options.

Did I say you just spam shieldbreaker? You set-up for it and I tlaked about it too. I know my **** and no one can say I don't. The only projectiles user in the game that gives Marth trouble is Falco. Marth runs through pretty much everyone else's projectile game. Just because his opponent knows Marth has to apporach doesn't mean they have the tools to do much about it.

Marth is simply better then the majority of the characters that can camp him.

And stop talking like Marth isn't good. At worst he is number 1 in high tier most likely or last in top tier. You make it sound like he is garbage.

Anyway, I already know you don't know as much about Marth as me and it was evident in the first post you made about him, so I'll stop here.

 

[Dark Sonic]

He's a pretty good character, but at the pro level players aren't going to sit there and get their shields broken. They're going to spot dodge, or even better....power shield. He has good range, but so do many other characters, some of which also have projectiles. Projectile spam forces Marth to approach. He can swat most of it down, or just air dodge it, but it forces him to approach, and more than likely approach in a specific way, and a good camper will recognize his range and can control his approach....I'm not saying Marth has no chance, I'm just saying that he can't force things like you think he can.

But you see, range isn't his only thing anymore. Now he's got power. Sure projectiles force Marth to approach, but Marth has some of the safest approach options in the game. A spaced F-tilt, d-tilt, or fair will easily apply pressure to an opponent and create an oppening.

And shieldbreaker is not to be spammed. It's for punishing rolls or predictable behavior, like always shielding when I shorthop at you. Also, shieldbreaker has very large range, and when spaced is relatively safe.

He can easily force the opponent to move in the exact same way he could in melee. Camp in their face. Space F-tilts and d-tilts and the occasional shieldbreaker to make them stop shielding, and eventually you will just wear them down.

 

[St. Viers]

Also, bdawg, you forget that when it comes to approaching marth has the same advantage as MK, namely lagless, disjointed attacks.