Official BBR Tier List v7

[deepseadiva]

Jigglypuff has some merits, but they're always described in what seems to be a vacuum. Yes, she has follow ups, yes she can maneuver. But when she actively has to COMPETE against an actual character, when does she actually WIN? It always looks like she's dealing with other characters, and it never looks like she's being dealt with. That, on top of having basically two stocks. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

I am completely furious right now, I just spent the last half hour typing out a painfully detailed response to that, and my whole window just got randomly deleted.

I hate everything right now.

Ill answer this later.

but the main point is that your stance contradicts itself.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm on the edge of my seat.

 

[DMG]

Least Jiggs can try to time out people

 

[Ilove]

Jiggs has at least fairly viable responses to everything though, unlike ganon. Also she has pretty decent matchups against some higher tier characters, she just has literally 0 representation in tournies.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz @ Ilove showing up out of nowhere due to namesearch. XD

DMG, Link and Zelda can reasonably go for that too (or win the defensive game), if they play their cards right with the lead.

Yeah Puff isn't that bad at all.

She is TERRIBLE if you don't use the bait and punish style (i.e. short hop aerial spam, which is how a lot of people see/play Puff), but as long as you play her like you would in Melee, she is clearly better than Ganon, Link, Zelda and possibly Falcon and/or Bowser, depending on who you ask.

Haters should actually describe why they think she is bad, cause I get the feeling they have severe flaws in their perception of how Puff actually works at high level.

See, that bolded portion is why I personally think people overrate Puff. In Melee, Puff plays defensively knowing that, once she gets in, it's a WoP carry to the blastzone, or it's a rest combo. Also, Melee = combos and Jiggs = not being comboed. In a game where combos are much less prevalent, Jiggs can't play the same way because she can't look forward to the same rewards. Melee Jiggs doesn't even have to "bait and punish" a lot of the time. She can just not give a **** and wait for you to come to her while she rides off that lead she gained off that one bait she got near the beginning.

From what I've seen, I think Puff is bad because she has to constantly play most of her MUs ultra-defensively to the point of timing people out a lot of the time. It's like every character suddenly became the ICs. Not only that, she has to somehow gain the lead and keep it when it's nigh impossible for her to get that lead in the first place in most MUs. That, in itself, isn't bad because there are plenty of characters like that, but her weight completely counteracts the risk-reward of the defensive game. Melee has a nice risk-reward system that richly rewards Jiggs for this type of gameplay, but in Brawl, there are some characters who simply shut down this kind of playstyle (G&W), and everyone else simply has to learn how to fight this kind of style, and voila! You've now learned how to fight Jiggs. If Jiggs had any sort of projectile, even a bad one, she'd be ten times better. Heck, she might actually go up a tier.

Even worse is that, as you said, her entire design depends on baiting and punishing. She's reactionary, but if she ever loses the stock lead, it's just too hard for her to get it back. She's now forced to approach and any good player will know that and should step back and let her try to do just that. Jiggs already has a tough enough time securing the lead, let alone taking it back when she's a stock (or two) behind.

Tl;dr - Jiggs is bad because she has to time people out or almost time them out when she can't directly challenge anyone to gain the lead and her weight puts her at risk of losing that lead throughout the entire match. Forget about catching up. If she's a stock behind, you can kiss that match goodbye.

Tltl;drdr - Jiggs is bad, really bad.

The biggest issue I see with Puff comes from game mechanics.

Melee, you could WoP people and gimp them a LOT more effectively. You were also relatively difficult to combo, somewhat alleviating the weight issue.

Brawl, WoP and gimping are significantly less effective. Very few characters get straight-up combo'd so that advantage turns into a disadvantage (losing every trade). The lack of combos also emphasizes having the speed/hitboxes to pressure your opponent properly after a hit, which Puff doesn't have imo :/

^ This. You need to have guaranteed strings or be good enough at neutral game to land more clean single hits in order to gain and keep the lead. If you can't do that, then you should be heavier to compensate.

 

[Lukingordex]

At least Puff has a decent recovery and can annoy a little.

Now tell me,what can Ganon,Link and Zelda do?
Be camped offstage?

but in Brawl, there are some characters who simply shut down this kind of playstyle (G&W), and everyone else simply has to learn how to fight this kind of style, and voila! You've now learned how to fight Jiggs.

The same happens with Link (MK and Falco),Ganon (almost every character lol) and Zelda (MK and some other top/high tiers),this is really not a reason to jigglypuff being worse than them,since they have the same problem.

 

[bubbaking]

ONLY Shielda in the tier list has NEVER made sense.

You spelled Sheilda wrong, btw. :3

Going by the reasoning the BBR deployed in explaining Sheilda's inclusion in the tier list at all, I don't see what's wrong with having just Sheilda instead of Sheik and Zelda. That argument of "Sheilda is the best of both Sheik and Zelda and can have no matchup worse than either of them" would work just fine as a reason to do away with solo Sheik or Zelda and just have Sheilda. Of course, I could care less either way, and I still think it's a bunch of BS how Sheilda has random better MUs than Sheik even though transforming shouldn't reasonably give her a notable net advantage at all.

Also it's funny because Puff's follow-up game in Brawl is really solid; she doesn't get punished on hit unless you are using the wrong moves, and that's true of everyone.

Just goes to show how little people understand this character.

Being nonpunishable on hit does not mean you have a "solid follow-up game".

That is not what people generally consider "high level"... haha

When I hear top I think of the handful of players who are always placing in the top 4~ of majors; high level are the ones who are in their shadow and can fluctuate between like... 3rd and 16th or something. THEN comes mid level.

You have some pretty high and strict limitations for what qualifies as high. IMO, everyone that got out of the first two rounds of pools at Apex (a major) is general high level. Everyone who got to.......I guess top 32 (maybe 16) is general top level. That's kind of how I see most majors that have pools. Mid level is not that good. They place in locals and regionals, not majors. Every char has its own top and high level players.

yet MM don't really matter.

Personally, I think MMs matter just as much as bracket matches. Whenever money is on the line, the match should be taken as serious. These matches are usually recorded, and generally, the act of placing money down precludes sandbagging that becomes 'johnworthy'.

/5 cents

bad enough that i took a game off you in a ranked match huh

I then proceeded to 3-1 you (including a win on the run-back), not to mention I was honoring you with the pleasure of a Samus ditto (and I hate dittos). I could have taken you out with 5 or 6 other characters, to be perfectly honest. I'm not that good at Melee, so if I'm 3-1'ing and 3-0'ing all of you down at the club, then you all suck. Period.

 

[da K.I.D.]

every character has redeeming qualities. its not fair to say, _____ character cant do anything.

they all have moves, so they can all do things

ganon hits like a truck. zelda has legitimate combos and set ups. link is super heavy and can harass with projectiles.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, but I think Jiggs is one of the few characters everyone had pinned down correctly when Brawl first came out. She's bad; her moveset is diametrically opposed to Brawl's mechanics. She has terrible range, can't kill, deals horrible damage. None of her special moves do anything. She is literally the only character I can think of that is made of only weaknesses, she doesn't have any real strengths. She has what, a bunch of jumps?

every character has redeeming qualities. its not fair to say, _____ character cant do anything.

Actually to be honest, I think Jiggs is that character. You can't do a whole lot with like 5 viable moves that all kind of do the same thing.

 

[Lukingordex]

Sorry, but I think Jiggs is one of the few characters everyone had pinned down correctly when Brawl first came out.

The same happened to Link and Ganon,Zelda was Mid in the past but she dropped to Botton Tier really quickly,that argument is useless.

She's bad; her moveset is diametrically opposed to Brawl's mechanics.

Ganon,Zelda and Link have the same problem,this does not mean that Jiggly deserves to be below then.

 

[Jimmy?]

what^

I don't even know what that means or how it relates to "Jiggs is bad."

 

[bubbaking]

link is super heavy

But he's not.....

Link isn't Snake, he's only human.

#Nitpicking

 

[Life]

How much bubba could a bubbaking king if a bubbaking could king bubba?

Anyway, I don't know if KID counts as a high-level Sonic, but he is excellent at posting on Smashboards.

 

[Gardex]

I believe Link outlives Snake vertically because of his falling speed

 

[bubbaking]

How much bubba could a bubbaking king if a bubbaking could king bubba?

My new sig.

At least Puff has a decent recovery and can annoy a little.

Now tell me,what can Ganon,Link and Zelda do?
Be camped offstage?

Link can annoy too, and he can wall somewhat decently. Zelda can actually wall herself really well, and she can net kills off her defensive play. Ganon can kill when he gets a good read. A good read gets Jiggs a weak hit. I hope that hit gave Puff the lead.

I believe Link outlives Snake vertically because of his falling speed

And his really good momentum cancel, not to mention he can give himself access to an even better one (bombs). However, falling speed does not equal heavy.

 

[ViperGold42]

Sonic vs Yoshi sounds lame

Delta Cod vs someone is like making the worlds biggest omelette

I like omelettes

 

[SoulPech]

I cannot see Puff being the worst character in the game because:

1) I main her :3
2) She still has gimping abilities
3) When her moves stale, then can link 2-3 hits, which can rack up damage


The issue is that she extremely light and little to no reliable kill moves. People try to play her like Melee, which is NOT how you should play her.

If Puff hits you then runs away for 8 minutes, good luck trying to catch her. Then when she gets chased, you try to catch her, she run away, then she may pound to hit you, then run again. She does take a lot of effort to use in order to avoid dieing so early and learning her kill abilities.

Not to mention, maining her helps my gameplay alot with Wario.

 

[ViperGold42]

I cannot see Puff being the worst character in the game because:

1) I main her :3
2) She still has gimping abilities
3) When her moves stale, then can link 2-3 hits, which can rack up damage


The issue is that she extremely light and little to no reliable kill moves. People try to play her like Melee, which is NOT how you should play her.

If Puff hits you then runs away for 8 minutes, good luck trying to catch her. Then when she gets chased, you try to catch her, she run away, then she may pound to hit you, then run again. She does take a lot of effort to use in order to avoid dieing so early and learning her kill abilities.

Not to mention, maining her helps my gameplay alot with Wario.

1. just because you main doesn't make her the best, that's your bias opinion.
2. yes but not as good as other characters like MK
3. yes but again. Other characters have better stale moves.

 

[Jimmy?]

I can't believe the bias in this thread.

We really need a new tier list because, I mean, there's so much bias in this one. It's super obvious because the entire thing is wrong and the people who made it are really bias. no offense.

bias.

Also, why doesn't he ever say biased? I guess that's a question without an answer, though. :<

 

[C.J.]

Looollll

+1 @ above

 

[MintyFlesh]

You spelled Sheilda wrong, btw. :3

Going by the reasoning the BBR deployed in explaining Sheilda's inclusion in the tier list at all, I don't see what's wrong with having just Sheilda instead of Sheik and Zelda. That argument of "Sheilda is the best of both Sheik and Zelda and can have no matchup worse than either of them" would work just fine as a reason to do away with solo Sheik or Zelda and just have Sheilda. Of course, I could care less either way, and I still think it's a bunch of BS how Sheilda has random better MUs than Sheik even though transforming shouldn't reasonably give her a notable net advantage at all.



Being nonpunishable on hit does not mean you have a "solid follow-up game".



You have some pretty high and strict limitations for what qualifies as high. IMO, everyone that got out of the first two rounds of pools at Apex (a major) is general high level. Everyone who got to.......I guess top 32 (maybe 16) is general top level. That's kind of how I see most majors that have pools. Mid level is not that good. They place in locals and regionals, not majors. Every char has its own top and high level players.



Personally, I think MMs matter just as much as bracket matches. Whenever money is on the line, the match should be taken as serious. These matches are usually recorded, and generally, the act of placing money down precludes sandbagging that becomes 'johnworthy'.

/5 cents

I then proceeded to 3-1 you (including a win on the run-back), not to mention I was honoring you with the pleasure of a Samus ditto (and I hate dittos). I could have taken you out with 5 or 6 other characters, to be perfectly honest. I'm not that good at Melee, so if I'm 3-1'ing and 3-0'ing all of you down at the club, then you all suck. Period.

your friend who plays ike isn't very good, get off his **** btw

to be perfectly honest, i don't think you could beat me with 5-6 other characters. i'm not good at melee, but you're pretty bad too; you have no right to say i suck or w.e. You never even made it out of pools or anything decent at this game. (or brawl)

sorry for derailing the topic, i hate when people randomly call me bad when they're really bad / misinformed about everything.

speaking of which, why are you posting in the tier list thread? You have no insight at brawl, no mid to top level tournament experience at this game, and you don't know what you're talking about. while this is true for most people in this thread, I think you qualify even moreso. out pls, trivial

I can't believe the bias in this thread.

We really need a new tier list because, I mean, there's so much bias in this one. It's super obvious because the entire thing is wrong and the people who made it are really bias. no offense.

bias.

Also, why doesn't he ever say biased? I guess that's a question without an answer, though. :<

There's always a ton of bias in these kinds of threads, it's why I stopped posting on swf. i find my opinions are based off what happens in ny/ nj, which isn't necessarily consistent with other regions

 

[ぱみゅ]

You shouldn't be infracted for censor dodging, you should be infracted for bad taste. RC reactions....

 

[Uncle]

Every character in low/bottom tier is underrepresented and has saving graces, but there's one big problem.......

SOMEBODY HAS TO BE IN LAST PLACE.

This is a tier list, a ranking of all the characters in the game. Just because someone is in last place, doesn't mean they're 100% ****. We could argue all day about how Bowser, Ganon, Falcon, Zelda, Link, Jiggs, or Mario are underrated and capable of doing better, but at the end of the day somebody's got to occupy that bottom spot. In fact, that's the biggest problem with low/bottom tier: We don't honestly know who is truly better than who in that group, due to a massive lack of results. We probably will never get enough results, either, because most players (who want to win) will wisely devote their time and energy to better characters.

For now, we'll have to mostly rely on theorycraft, aka business as usual in here. All I ask is that whenever you're debating that a character should be higher, actually compare the character to the characters you want him/her to overtake on the list. Simply talking about the character's merits isn't enough.

 

[ViperGold42]

I can't believe the bias in this thread.

We really need a new tier list because, I mean, there's so much bias in this one. It's super obvious because the entire thing is wrong and the people who made it are really bias. no offense.

bias.

Also, why doesn't he ever say biased? I guess that's a question without an answer, though. :<

You're such a biased troll

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You spelled Sheilda wrong, btw. :3

Going by the reasoning the BBR deployed in explaining Sheilda's inclusion in the tier list at all, I don't see what's wrong with having just Sheilda instead of Sheik and Zelda. That argument of "Sheilda is the best of both Sheik and Zelda and can have no matchup worse than either of them" would work just fine as a reason to do away with solo Sheik or Zelda and just have Sheilda. Of course, I could care less either way, and I still think it's a bunch of BS how Sheilda has random better MUs than Sheik even though transforming shouldn't reasonably give her a notable net advantage at all.

Transforming definitely makes match-ups like DDD a lot better for Sheik.

And the reason why Sheilda shouldn't be on the tier list by herself is because it isn't informative; the point of the tier list is to tell players how good characters are - and that includes Sheik and Zelda individually because they are used individually.

Being nonpunishable on hit does not mean you have a "solid follow-up game".

No, she actually has a solid follow-up game. Why do you keep talking about Puff when you are so ignorant of how she plays?

I cannot see Puff being the worst character in the game because:

1) I main her :3
2) She still has gimping abilities
3) When her moves stale, then can link 2-3 hits, which can rack up damage

The issue is that she extremely light and little to no reliable kill moves. People try to play her like Melee, which is NOT how you should play her.

Serynder and I use her like Melee Puff and we see success.

One of these days I'mma make a really massive theorycraft post explaining how Puff works and why she isn't the worst in the game; linking to video examples and frame data.

 

[-LzR-]

Just wondering why people usually say how Puff has no combos or anything like that. I think she is one of the best characters when it comes to followups and stuff. She is mobile in the air and her moves link into each other really well. Such shame she has problems getting in and can't trade hits at all.

 

[Luigisama]

that pound is annoying.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If a heavy character had Pound it would be incredible

 

[Lukingordex]

Those Zelda fanboys trying to improve Link,Ganon and Zelda in the Tier List...

:T

 

[Seagull Joe]

V115 talking **** after losing to a Lucas.
KID, you ****ed up big time.

I feel his pain. is broken yo.

I mean, I have a good number of notable wins for how much I travel (very little) but NR asked for recent stuff, and my two most recent tournaments were the one pidge came to and Apex lol.

but before that, lets see. Ive beaten Will, I beat Snakeee back when he and Dazwa were the top ZSSs, I beat Hylian, I've beaten Lie, I beat Poyo. I beat Nikole (ive named dropped her way to much recently) I beat iLove (his DDD was really good but I dont think many people had heard of him, he also beat hylian and he almost beat Chudat that day). Had a super close set with Bizkit at pound (still need to run it back with him and Fatal)

A lot of those sets/games are recorded if you really want to look and study up on me. Doesnt seem necessary though.

I mean theres another tournament next week that I have a very small chance of getting to. And if I do that, Ill record a set with Fatal and see how that goes.

When did you beat Lie? Poyo sucks.

And you lost to Kenny...twice (Your own region and P5) ._.

Kenny got top 5 in your region when he went to a tourney there losing to Cura and San.

Kenny is looooool.

Fox and wolf yes.

thinking back, I have no idea why I did that...

Because they beat and does not.

Cuz the Yoshi-Sonic MU takes too long and I definitely woulda stomped you in it.

Mateo pls.

who the hell is staf

my name is John E. Madden as my profile indicates i am clearly a dude

Stef pls.

Just wondering why people usually say how Puff has no combos or anything like that. I think she is one of the best characters when it comes to followups and stuff. She is mobile in the air and her moves link into each other really well. Such shame she has problems getting in and can't trade hits at all.

SHE SUCKS LOL. WHY ARE USERS SO CONVINCED THEIR CHARACTER CAN DO STUFF?
/caps

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic beats Yoshi.

 

[Iota]

What the hell? Nobody was arguing that she doesn't suck. They were saying she just wasn't the worst bad char.

 

[SoulPech]

1. just because you main doesn't make her the best, that's your bias opinion.
2. yes but not as good as other characters like MK
3. yes but again. Other characters have better stale moves.

I never said she was the best

Spoiler

like no one ever was

. I'm explaining she isn't the worst. It's not an extreme bias opinion. I'm basing it on my experience with the character, facts on how to use her and beat other players.

No character is better than MK though.

Some characters do have better stale moves.

Why you twist my words around? :'(

SHE SUCKS LOL. WHY ARE USERS SO CONVINCED THEIR CHARACTER CAN DO STUFF?
/caps

Because she can.

 

[Luco]

I feel his pain. is broken yo.

I wish he was in mid...

And Jimmy's got a point... I wish I was free of that but... I don't think I am. :/

@SoulPech: A slight change to those last words and you could reply with a song...

 

[SoulPech]

what last words? the "Because she can"?

 

[Lukingordex]

Sonic beats Yoshi.

 

[Luco]

what last words? the "Because she can"?

"Why you twist my words around?"

Sorry, I see you edited your post.

the song I meant was 'you spin me right round', but it's not so much a reply as... Well... you know what, i'll just stop before I dig a deeper hole...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mmm, I think i've heard KID being referred to as a good sonic main before. =)

I never heard about this in the past odd years.
Mayhap I missed something when I poofed for a while.

Hes not my status either...

I mean, I can legit name all the sonics that matter on one hand and maybe some change.

X. Espy. MeekSpeedy. Me. Kai. Speed.

If the sonic youre playing against isnt one of those six and in the last 2 years or so. Your experience is probably meaningless.

*scratches head&
I can recall several accomplishments of not that Espy, X, Meek, Kai and Speed have done.
Not you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

copied. bad habit from other forums