Official BBR Tier List v7

[Wumbo105]

DK is conditional poop. He's either really good if the player knows his exact range with his tilts, or just plain easy to ****. There's never an in-between.
I've personally never had any problems against DK. Even his great tilts always seem telegraphed to me.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Except that ganon's bair has a lesser chance at racking damages. His sideB does not give a chance to do a warlock punch, but a dtilt or a neutral A. His only spike is dair and downB (when close to the opponent) and his legde attack is less quicker than DK's (when at minor damage percentage).

I even put the troll face and everything..

and as for DK's viability Chain grabs

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Once a top DK perfects the ledge invincicopter, he'll rise :3

 

[Peachy-Desu]

But chain grabs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, cause Falco is so bad lol

 

[Peachy-Desu]

but infinite.

 

[Luxord]

I think not.

He has powerful smashes, a donkey punch, 2 air attacks that can spike opponents, DownB and SideB, and bair. He's pretty damn good on ground. He has a quick ledge attack too.

Wait you're quoting his side special as a viable spike and his ledge attack shielded is a big "come **** on me with a giant punish." I'll give you the DK Punch (cuz of armor frames, not that hard to use) and the b-air cuz it's amazing.

oh and yeah San as a "pocket" jiggs, one of the better ones in the country
Edit: espy ninja-ing >.>

 

[smashkng]

I've not played against any Puff main as Ike but I've played against some who secondary it. I personally find this MU to be at least +2 Ike because Puff is like a terrible Wario. Ike outpriorises and outranges anything she throws with Nair and Ike can wall Wario while Jiggs doesn't have a quite as good air MOBILITY. Ike's Usmash kills Jiggs at 75-80% while has to wait until around 150% if she wants to kill Ike without gimps and I've not found it hard to recover against me as long as I DIed well because I can choose between a low and high recovery (which is with Quick Draw + fast fall) on reaction due to her awfully slow fast fall. Ike's Utilt kills at about 90% as well and can be set up from Jab if she tries to punish Ike for jabbing her. Her weight is such a huge disadvantage for her against Ike IMO and her only hope against him is probably running away.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you've only played secondaries, chances are your theory-craft is wrong haha. Puff secondaries are always bad with very few exceptions; you can't use her properly unless your spacing is perfect. Don't mean to be rude, just the way it is.

Nair is out-sped by all of Puff's aerials including Pound, and it can be air dodged > punished depending on the height (whether it auto-cancels or not). Without a read, it is only viable out of a short hop - AND EVEN THEN, it is REALLY easy to bait/predict or even react to; late air dodge > grab will nail it every time. Nair matches Puff's spacing game, it certainly doesn't beat it. Not to mention that any positional advantage you get from nair will mean nothing once Puff can do invincible aerials from the ledge.

If you are hitting with up smash, you either got a hard read (which shouldn't hold much weight in a MU ratio) or the Puff hasn't broken their unsafe-air-dodge-to-the-ground habit yet. Rest (which isn't hard at all to land against Ike, avoid an early part of a sword swing and it is basically guaranteed) KOs at sub 100% by the way.

You are correct about recovering from above, I forget about that option. Her slow fall doesn't prevent her from covering both options, however, Puff can just as easily react to Ike's DI and cover quick-draw.

You're also correct about up tilt, its really good against Puff.

I can't tell you much about what Puff can do to Ike, I don't have much experience in the MU, but I can tell you what doesn't work against her.

EDIT: I might have overrated Rest in the heat of the moment. It is definitely viable, but my post makes it seem better than it is lol

 

[san.]

It's only +1 Ike imo. The difference between Wario and Jigglypuff is that if Wario is in front of you on the ground, he cannot just jump and aerial at you. Jigglypuff can. Jigglypuff can hit at Ike's hand before most aerials come out. Wario and Jigglypuff maintain quite different approaches in the MU.

Spacing aerials isn't so great against Jigglypuff at closer distances outside of retreating bair, but pivot grabs, dashes along the ground, and quick jabs to rack up damage works wonders. Jigglypuff can hit at gaps in Ike's aether offstage, but it's not too difficult to fast fall low and recover quickly if you DI well. At longer distances, spacing nair and fair can still prove difficult. Just don't jump again if Jigglypuff gets within range of Ike. If Jigglypuff can get to Ike offstage quickly, it could prove deadly since Jigglypuff only needs to watch out for the spaced aerial and eat away the double jump with sourspots.

Jigglypuff will be doing a lot of shield and aerial pressuring along with grabs, since she is not that afraid of Ike's OoS options outside of jab, grab(can be spaced), and maybe bair. Jigglypuff can easily try to hit the top of the shield or remain at Ike's front or back depending on the situation. Jigglypuff just gets screwed once she gets to 60-70% since it's kill range. Jigglypuff can be jab->utilted, and aerials will also kill pretty early.


EDIT: Forgot to say, but there are times where Jigglypuff can live to 120-130+% with proper momentum canceling if the worst she gets hit by is fair. Avoid the most probably kill moves: utilt and bair, and she can hope to survive long in the matchup. It's just difficult to avoid forever, especially if you're on the offensive.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with teh San.

I can't speak for other players, but I SDI single-hit attacks which gives me an extra 10% (I assume) to live or so against Ike's predictable KO moves.

 

[Luxord]

Yeah against Ike it should be around only 10%, definitely a good skill for a Puff main to pick up, much more crucial for her than many others. And there we go, San clears matchups up =D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My question is, if san thinks that its Ike's favour... How come it is even on the match-up chart? xD

 

[infiniteV115]

Because the MU chart was made with a flawed method.

Or maybe Ryo was like NAW *****

 

[Kuro~]

Lol it was more of mink being like "NAW *****!"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I had a feeling that'd be the reason haha

Who is in the "Jigglypuff panel" of the MU chart anyway?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What MUs do you personally as an Ike player have a problem with? And as a second question (if you know the answer) what MUs do the Ike boards have a problem with? Because I just looked at the chart and it doesn't look to bad imo...

Also not that I give a ****, but there's a MU thread while this is Tier List discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316173&page=176
just saying, but I'd rather continue the conversation here for sake of ease

Personally?

ICs, Pikachu, Diddy, G&W, Pit, Kirby, ROB, Yoshi, DK, PT, Mario, Bowser, Jigglypuff. Some have stronger arguments than others, but if I was to make a list, that would be it.

The Ike board itself? Guessing a bit honestly because I don't know everyone's opinion, so I'll just list the ones I'm more sure that a majority would want changed.

Pikachu, G&W, ROB, Yoshi, DK, Mario, Bowser, Jigglypuff. Yoshi is the only one on this list that I'm second guessing myself a bit in terms of the Ike board. And of course, you get everybody and their personal MU or two that they see differently from others. I think I remember seeing somebody who thought Falco should be even for example.

 

[Ussi]

My question is, if san thinks that its Ike's favour... How come it is even on the match-up chart? xD

cause he was busy with college during the MU chart panel. 2 of the others wanted +1 Ike, but the other 3 didn't really think about it and put even.

 

[Doc King]

I really can't see Yoshi above Ike unless some significant change in the metagame happens.

Personally, I think Yoshi belongs below Ike, although they should both move above DK.

That's actually debatable. I mean Yoshi has an even matchup against Wario and DK has an even matchup against Marth.

Ike has a buttload of -1's along with Yoshi, but don't have many solid disadvantages, but DK can solidly win against characters like Lucas while Ike losses to Samus.

but infinite.

lol. That makes no sense because Dedede has an infinite on Yoshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YunQ5gxogJg

 

[Kuro~]

lol it was literally only mink. It was stupid. He did a great job keepin up with it and making sure **** got done and argued well.

 

[san.]

Back then, I was barely even on the boards at all.

Everyone has their own opinions, so I find it more important to put facts down instead of worrying about how one may interpret them.
It's difficult for me to see past +1/-1 for instance since it's hard for me to treat any one thing as a game changer, and most tactics/moves can be countered by another from my character's point of view.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi is the only one on this list that I'm second guessing myself a bit in terms of the Ike board. And of course, you get everybody and their personal MU or two that they see differently from others. I think I remember seeing somebody who thought Falco should be even for example.

Hi guys!!!!!

Well,Yoshi plays extremely defensive in this MU,Ike will need to approach.

Eggs will make Ike´s life a pain on this MU, if the Yoshi players combines it with good spacing,good timming and good mind,Ike will suffer...

On the other hand,Yoshi suffer really good if Ike approach with success...

This MU is something like a 0 (even).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The Jebus Tier List

Top
S:
A:
B:

High
C:

Borderline
D:

Mid
E:
F:

Low
G:
H:

 

[Lukingordex]

Top
S:
A:
B:

High
C:

Borderline
D:

Mid
E:
F:

Low
G:
H:

Really disorganized.
Mario will never raise above Lucas,sorry.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Really disorganized.
Mario will never raise above Lucas,sorry.

you're probably right about Mario. In my mind, I was still thinking that Mario had an even match up with Diddy (slightly Diddy's favor now) and that he didn't do as bad against Marth as he does now

 

[Sunnysunny]

Hi guys!!!!!

Well,Yoshi plays extremely defensive in this MU,Ike will need to approach.

Eggs will make Ike´s life a pain on this MU, if the Yoshi players combines it with good spacing,good timming and good mind,Ike will suffer...

On the other hand,Yoshi suffer really good if Ike approach with success...

This MU is something like a 0 (even).

...You have a very simple way at looking at things Lukin. =p Theres alot more too it then that.
But yes, its even for the most part. Ike has a harder time killing and wracking up damage because we can just double jump out of his silly jab stuff and sometimes even punish with n-air. For the most part, ike will be staying with in his f-air or n-air range to outrange us. We really can't do much about it other then retreat.

Ikes ridiculous range in the air makes it hard for Yoshi to sneak in. If the Ike mispaces an aerial though he gets bombarded.

Its a real fun MU. Both sides have to play very aggressively in it because normal things like eggs and pivot grabs arn't as effective.

------

@Jebus: The lack of lucario in your tierlist saddens me!
Wait wait wait...just read it. Yoshi below Luigi and Ness above rob...?

Never mind. I'm afraid if you put lucario in he'd be below game and watch.

 

[Lukingordex]

you're probably right about Mario. In my mind, I was still thinking that Mario had an even match up with Diddy (slightly Diddy's favor now) and that he didn't do as bad against Marth as he does now

Well...

The MUs with the tops are a pain for both characters,so what remains to discuss is the MUs with the characters close to them,and Lucas has these better than Mario...

 

[Lukingordex]

...You have a very simple way at looking at things Lukin. =p Theres alot more too it then that.
But yes, its even for the most part. Ike has a harder time killing and wracking up damage because we can just double jump out of his silly jab stuff and sometimes even punish with n-air. For the most part, ike will be staying with in his f-air or n-air range to outrange us. We really can't do much about it other then retreat.

Ikes ridiculous range in the air makes it hard for Yoshi to sneak in. If the Ike mispaces an aerial though he gets bombarded.

Its a real fun MU. Both sides have to play very aggressively in it because normal things like eggs and pivot grabs arn't as effective.

Well,I don´t say to much because my english really sucks and sometimes I do not know what word should I use to says somethings @.@

But you´re right,I forgot completely to talk about the air game,who is extremely important on this MU for both characters...

EDIT: oh... and just notice that I double posted fuuuuuuu

 

[Peachy-Desu]

lol. That makes no sense because Dedede has an infinite on Yoshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YunQ5gxogJg

How does having a infinite on yoshi have anything to do with the viability of DK? lol

Infinites fo life~

Brawl needs a lot more Infinites.. it helps make the meta game better and better!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Jebus: The lack of lucario in your tierlist saddens me!
Wait wait wait...just read it. Yoshi below Luigi and Ness above rob...?

Never mind. I'm afraid if you put lucario in he'd be below game and watch.

Fixed. He's basically where he was on the old tier list

 

[Luxord]

cause he was busy with college during the MU chart panel. 2 of the others wanted +1 Ike, but the other 3 didn't really think about it and put even.

Lol really? That's funny stuff, I love this site to hell
And Mink is the hero of jigglypuffs, Grim's probably going to appear and give applause any second for him >.>

Personally?
ICs, Pikachu, Diddy, G&W, Pit, Kirby, ROB, Yoshi, DK, PT, Mario, Bowser, Jigglypuff. Some have stronger arguments than others, but if I was to make a list, that would be it.

And I don't know if you know this, but you listed ALL +1s basically...and a -2 and an even. I don't even see how a lot of these can be disputed, by definition of a +/-1 they're all winnable if the player is skilled enough.

ICs, I feel like the "bthrow spike nana" is a lot easier to say than to do against a good icies player. +1 is fair
Pikachu, fthrow CG and thundershocks are annoying, and he's as mobile as Ike so he can keep getting around and t-shocking. +1 seems fair
Diddy - I could see this being even as Ike with a banana is really good b/c of his DACIT and quickdraw shenanigans.
Pit - what does Ike do against Pit camping? +1 arrows
ROB - camping, although once Ike's in it's good, so I could see it even.
Yoshi - did you watch the Yoshi-Ike crew battle, that's a proven even matchup with the best of the best from both sides playing and showing that, you can't give me ANY argument against this one.
PT - that's a +2 for Ike, you want it lower???
Mario - fireballs and caping recovery/jab1, even is fair.
Jiggs - we just went over this with San
Bowser/DK/Kirby - no idea what these MUs look like

 

[Doc King]

How does having a infinite on yoshi have anything to do with the viability of DK? lol

Infinites fo life~

Brawl needs a lot more Infinites.. it helps make the meta game better and better!

It was kind of a joke because you said DK was not viable because of D3 infinite and I found it kind of funny because D3 actually has one on Yoshi.

Although in reality, the D3 infinite on Yoshi is a lot less practical than the simple stupid DK one. D3 Yoshi infinite is actually a form of the Snake infinite but instead of moving back down back to a pivot grab you just dash dance forward and back into a pivot grab. It's done in certain frames (Which I can give to you if you want).

D3 actually has a lot of stuff he can do on DK like walk off, d throw to d tilt and bair.

There's much kinds of bull**** you can do with D3 and I don't know why I'm talking about this so deeply.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And I don't know if you know this, but you listed ALL +1s basically...and a -2 and an even. I don't even see how a lot of these can be disputed, by definition of a +/-1 they're all winnable if the player is skilled enough.

ICs, I feel like the "bthrow spike nana" is a lot easier to say than to do against a good icies player. +1 is fair We can hit them through their blizzard wall at certain angles, jab separates them like its nothing, and of course how easily we stomp Nana when she's separated. The fact we can safely bthrow is another huge thing. Its a MU with extreme momentum required, but at the end of the day it boils down to even.[/i]
Pikachu, fthrow CG and thundershocks are annoying, and he's as mobile as Ike so he can keep getting around and t-shocking. +1 seems fair This was explained better by someone else a while back, but it should be even.
Diddy - I could see this being even as Ike with a banana is really good b/c of his DACIT and quickdraw shenanigans. That is part of it, yes. Ike's range vs Diddy's range is another thing as well as KOing. Diddy's ability to wrack up damage largely negates the KOing differences though.
Pit - what does Ike do against Pit camping? +1 arrows Look up Ryo vs Kuro. I don't know how good of a Pit Kuro is considered, but he does go for the arrows obviously. Ike basically doesn't care that much about the arrows in the long run.
ROB - camping, although once Ike's in it's good, so I could see it even. DACIT stuff with the Gyro, though that doesn't figure in much. It more comes down to how long it takes ROB to KO Ike compared to how long it takes us to KO him.
Yoshi - did you watch the Yoshi-Ike crew battle, that's a proven even matchup with the best of the best from both sides playing and showing that, you can't give me ANY argument against this one. This was the weakest claim on my list. I still feel its +1.
PT - that's a +2 for Ike, you want it lower??? Fairly sure it said +1, though I might have read it wrong. Should be +2.
Mario - fireballs and caping recovery/jab1, even is fair. Even? It should be +1 for Ike. His FLUDD doesn't stop us enough, the cape is worthless against a reverse Aether, fireball is fairly worthless, he's horribly outranged, and he's not KOing as soon.
Jiggs - we just went over this with San Indeed. Should be +1
Bowser/DK/Kirby - no idea what these MUs look like

All of those changes add up.

 

[Dynamo298]

Why is Kirby placed so low?
Also, could anyone tell me what the numbers beside the characters are for?

 

[Lukingordex]

It´s what happened with the character between this tier list and the last list tier.

Also, kirby dropped 1 position since the last tier list.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

It was kind of a joke because you said DK was not viable because of D3 infinite and I found it kind of funny because D3 actually has one on Yoshi.

Although in reality, the D3 infinite on Yoshi is a lot less practical than the simple stupid DK one. D3 Yoshi infinite is actually a form of the Snake infinite but instead of moving back down back to a pivot grab you just dash dance forward and back into a pivot grab. It's done in certain frames (Which I can give to you if you want).

D3 actually has a lot of stuff he can do on DK like walk off, d throw to d tilt and bair.

There's much kinds of bull**** you can do with D3 and I don't know why I'm talking about this so deeply.

lol, fair enough.. but that was sooo random about Yoshi~ XD

 

[Luxord]

All of those changes add up.

Kuro's respectable, but he's no Kira/Koolaid (/Ally) so I feel like the MU chart is right. Well we can agree to disagree on the Yoshi MU. Have ANY Ike play Stevo and then we can see what the MU really is, there's not even good Mario rep nowadays to even showcase that MU. Vato's on that diddy swag, idk anything about Leon playing, and Boss is done with that character lol. So until then can't really just theorycraft fludd and cape not working, and fball isn't worthless -_- (but he is outranged massively, kinda like his Marth MU but not as worse)

 

[smashkng]

I think Ike vs Pit is even. Ike has a much larger blade than Pit has and beats Pit at close range. Pit doesn't like his aerials getting outpriorised, because that complicates his planking with Uair and juggling game. Ike isn't that bad against projectiles, while he is vulnerable to them they don't completely shut him down like it does on Ganon because he has a pretty decent mobility and he has a very good shield dash and dash to shield. He doesn't have that much harder time dealing with them than Marth has. But yeah that's just my experience, haven't seen any matches of a top Pit and a top Ike meeting each other.
And Mario is +1 Ike without a single doubt. This is pretty much the same matchup as Luigi, other than Mario having a lot less kill power but not suffering from the horrible shield push every time Ike Fairs his shield and having average mobility instead of a horrible one. Ike's range hurts Mario too much for it to be even.

 

[Kuro~]

The problem is i haven't learned how to take advantage of ike's recovery. Arrows combined with things ryo told me about only recently can be REALLY gay for ike offstage. Arrows ARE the reason +1. It forces ike into a situation where i get to intercept his approaches and give me an amazing risk free zoning tool e.g. dash dash out pivot arrow.


Pretty sure both me and ryo agree on +1

 

[Sunnysunny]

lol, fair enough.. but that was sooo random about Yoshi~ XD

Well, DDD does have an infinite on Donkey kong.

...BUT CAN HE SEE WHY KIDS LOVE CINNAMON TOAST CRUNCH?!