Official BBR Tier List v7

[vato_break]

diddy beats mario 6/4

 

[| Big D |]

Because it has sugar cinnamon swirls in every bite, it's the taste you can see!

 

[Doc King]

lol, fair enough.. but that was sooo random about Yoshi~ XD

lol yeah. But the more you know the better.

Well, DDD does have an infinite on Donkey kong.

...BUT CAN HE SEE WHY KIDS LOVE CINNAMON TOAST CRUNCH?!

Nah really?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kuro's respectable, but he's no Kira/Koolaid (/Ally) so I feel like the MU chart is right. Well we can agree to disagree on the Yoshi MU. Have ANY Ike play Stevo and then we can see what the MU really is, there's not even good Mario rep nowadays to even showcase that MU. Vato's on that diddy swag, idk anything about Leon playing, and Boss is done with that character lol. So until then can't really just theorycraft fludd and cape not working, and fball isn't worthless -_- (but he is outranged massively, kinda like his Marth MU but not as worse)

Not theorycrafting about the FLUDD and Cape. Cape is factually worthless. If aether is reversed, caping it will give Ike a boost in recovery. I believe one of the Ikes on the board played Boss back when he was using Mario, and the FLUDD honestly doesn't do much. There is a spot we can put aether on most stages where we can recover but Mario can't hit us. It also just doesn't last long enough to really screw with us in most situations.

Fireball we can just jab out. It doesn't make us approach, it doesn't come out fast enough to really interrupt us in cases where Mario would want to use it to interrupt us over another one of his moves. It can cover him as he recovers from high up, but thats mainly it.

The Ikes at...w/e that last big tournament with the Japanese players was tried to have a crew battle against the Mario mains, but they chickened out because they were desperate to keep one of their "even" MUs.

 

[vato_break]

Cape should rarely be used to gimp ike(as it is more risky), Fludd/fireball gimp ike much better. I beat Uli when i played him a long time ago but, thats the only good ike i've played. I also beat tearbears ike but, im not sure if it's respectable enough to merit a good win on an ike. Ike probably beats mario 55/45

 

[Luxord]

Fair enough, but who won out of Boss vs mystery Ike? Regardless of outcome I'm sure it was a close match.

 

[vato_break]

Who knows, boss sux

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Mario v Ike is +1 Ike, Ike's range and kill power are too dominant to make it even.

 

[san.]

I beat Boss' Mario at Apex 2010 but that was a long time ago and Boss just woke up after taking a nap. All other times I played him was against Luigi.

I feel Mario has to put in much more effort than I do when I play against him. Dunno how that translates to an MU ratio though.

 

[Luxord]

Bracket or friendlies, and was it game 3 or no?

And it would be the +1 for you. It's essentially similar to Icies:Marth, if both played perfectly it's an even matchup. But realistically the icies can afford to eff things up, while the Marth needs to be near perfect to have it be even, thus it's generally agreed as a +1 by the top levels (for icies).

 

[san.]

It was bracket.

 

[Sunnysunny]

l\Nah really?

You realize thats a joke at your own expense, right?

 

[ChaosSoul]

I m only going to say this once tier lists are invalad i have evidence
Ghe meta game keeps evolving to the point at wich the characters could never be catogorised one could play against someone with say ike and lose however if the person used diferent stratiges the outcome could be difrent the only way i see the tier list being vaild is if someone relesed one each day

Oh yeay i did the research

 

[Delta-cod]

That's actually debatable. I mean Yoshi has an even matchup against Wario and DK has an even matchup against Marth.

Ike has a buttload of -1's along with Yoshi, but don't have many solid disadvantages, but DK can solidly win against characters like Lucas while Ike losses to Samus.

Yes, but Yoshi also does better against the other common tournament threats than DK does. As does Ike.

Like, losing to Samus/beating Lucas aren't important when you consider the fact that there are very few Samus/Lucas mains out there that actually matter. A character's spread against top tiers is much more important.

Yoshi - did you watch the Yoshi-Ike crew battle, that's a proven even matchup with the best of the best from both sides playing and showing that, you can't give me ANY argument against this one.

BUT YOSHI HAS EGGS AND CAN CG, AUTO +2.

But actually, yeah.

 

[Vinnie]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=139656

 

[Sinister Slush]

I clicked the X once I saw ICs over MK.

 

[stingers]

ICs over MK? damn vinnies on that perfect play train now huh...

 

[Vinnie]

ICs over MK? damn vinnies on that perfect play train now huh...

Nah, but I feel like ICs are better than MK when I'm playing well.

 

[stingers]

Nah, but I feel like ICs are better than MK when I'm playing well.

What, by that you mean you think they beat MK? Or do you really mean better as a whole? I think even high calibur ICs will have trouble with ROB. or TL. or Peach. (maybe not Peach) point is...the char cant do everything.

 

[Hippieslayer]

So which characters do you guys think are hardest to place on the list? Ie the ones over whose placing you honestly don't feel very sure about.

 

[infiniteV115]

ICs don't deserve to be over MK cause they arguably lose to multiple characters (MK Snake ZSS TL Peach) and even if we assume that ICs goes even with all of them, ICs will still have a higher number of even MUs than MK (and by extension, a higher number of even MUs against worse characters).

As for G&W being 10th, I just don't see it. I understand that you play G&W better than pretty much everyone else meaning you understand G&W better than everyone else, but even with the MU spread you provided he should be worse than ZSS.
You have the opinion that G&W is either -1 or 0 with MK, leaning towards 0. DRN has the same opinion on that, but for ZSS vs MK and feels very strongly (rather than simply leaning towards it) that it's even.
ZSS has no -3s, goes even with Marth and ICs (at worst goes even with ICs, at best counters them lol, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here cause I remember you saying that you think it's even), arguably goes even with Snake, Wario, MK and Falco (and G&W), has no -2s and goes -1 with the rest of top tier, and beats/goes even with everyone outside of top tier.

So

MK - both -1 or 0
ICs - G&W gets -3, ZSS is at worst even
Oli - Both -1
Diddy - Both -1
Snake - Both arguably even
Falco - Both -1, ZSS close to even (I imagine same for G&W?)
Pikachu - G&W arguably even, ZSS -1
Marth - G&W -2, ZSS 0
Wario - Both even or -1

And then both characters beat/go even with everyone outside of top tier.
So G&W does only slightly better against Pikachu, does much worse against Marth and ICs and does more or less the same against everyone else. Even if you assume that ZSS' worst MU, Oli, is -2 (I don't think anyone feels that this MU is -2, lol), the -3 that G&W has outweighs that, then he still does worse overall because of Marth.

So imo ZSS and G&W are (at worst for ZSS) tied at 10-11. To put G&W above you'd still have to have radically more generous opinions for G&W than the ones you listed.

 

[Gardex]

All this editing

 

[Espy Rose]

I love silly tier lists.
Keep 'em coming.

 

[Vinnie]

What, by that you mean you think they beat MK? Or do you really mean better as a whole? I think even high calibur ICs will have trouble with ROB. or TL. or Peach. (maybe not Peach) point is...the char cant do everything.

ROB is free with my new hobbling strat that I copied from 9B.
TL is free. 1-0 vs Kingtoon, 4-0 with MJG, 2-0 with Jash (only counting ICs vs TL sets).
Peach is -1 or 0 with ICs. ZSS is -1 vs ICs.

 

[stingers]

ROB MU sucks cuz everything he does separates ICs, and like the only way to get a grab is if ROB lands badly or spams dsmash lol. I dont see how a different CG would change the MU, u should be killing anyway

But...new hobbling strat? Can u not SDI it?

 

[Vinnie]

ROB MU sucks cuz everything he does separates ICs, and like the only way to get a grab is if ROB lands badly or spams dsmash lol. I dont see how a different CG would change the MU, u should be killing anyway

But...new hobbling strat? Can u not SDI it?

It's just a really easy way to hobble. If you regrab out of a hobble, then pummel once, then buffer the hobble, it's WAY easier timing. I don't think I'll ever drop a hobble anymore lol. Observe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYoEXT81xp4&feature=plcp#t=1m15s

Also, SDI-ing hobbling was never good in the first place, it's pretty easy to get around that. xD

Also, ICs can juggle ROB really easily. Yes, he has separating tools... but honestly, the only time ROBs ever beat ICs is because they drop the CG. Always.

What top ICs have you played?

 

[stingers]

none, b/c I dont travel. I still know the MU...I watched you vs Holy, and he didnt win (vs your ICs) because you messed up CGs lol.

 

[Vinnie]

I watched you vs Holy, and he didnt win (vs your ICs) because you messed up CGs lol.

What? I just rewatched it... I grabbed him 3 times with both climbers present. He got stock 1 becuase I dropped the first grab. Then he started to plank me. Even then, I still grabbed him 3 times altogether.

Also, OCEAN and I both think that FD is ROB's 2nd best neutral against ICs (1st being SV). Platforms hurt him in this MU... a lot.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ZSS is trash and doesn't go even with MK.

I'll never understand it.

Good punishes =/= good match-up.

 

[infiniteV115]

Maybe the reason you'll never understand it is because (as you stated earlier) Australia is awful?

Cause I really don't see how any good player that is experienced in the MU, from either side, could think it's +2.5 for MK XD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because everything MK does beats everything ZSS does (exaggerating).

If you link me to a game which shows the MU at top level I can explain, whenever I see one the MKs do stupid unsafe stuff and get punished for it.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well if even at top level people get punished for mistakes then I don't really care about your theoretical perfect-play ratio of 2.5, because in reality people mistakes. Deal with it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=139656

IC are not better than MK. MK still has a hell of a lot better match ups than ICs. I agree with pretty much everything else except Marth and G&W. Marth should be higher than Pikachu and there is no way that G&W is above Pit or Fox

 

[Player-1]

fox is a trash character, bottom tier.

 

[Zinoto]

fox is a trash character, bottom tier.

People should listen to him more. This is the truth.

 

[vato_break]

you guys obviously have not played TKD

 

[Player-1]

i don't need to, i'd wreck him

 

[Chuee]

i don't need to, i'd wreck him

Wreck him with your superior capitalization.

 

[Player-1]

capitalization is too mainstream

 

[Luxord]

P1 too cool for that
there's a reason he mains C. Falcon!
look under his name, duh