Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You're gonna end up a girl when I break my foot up in your taint, ya dig?

well if u dont want me 2 refer 2 u as my child then u shouldnt call me DaD

 

[pidgezero_one]

You're gonna end up a girl when I break my foot up in your taint, ya dig?

what the actual ****

 

[Dcold]

You know, if you want MK banned you can run your own tournament with MK banned, or just not go to tournaments that have him legal (like Ish said, minus the lazy bum bit). Your complaining won't change the minds of people that want him legal/banned regardless of your reason, so either deal with it where you are or be upset quietly, please.

 

[pidgezero_one]

yo SL64, shiny mewtwo is a minor, calm down romeo

 

[Illuvial]

Ya know what really shocks me about MK ban? That fact that Japan, the place that seems to ban EVERYTHING has not banned MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

well if u dont want me 2 refer 2 u as my child then u shouldnt call me DaD

I cannot help but call you a Dumb Ass Dude

 

[infiniteV115]

Ya know what really shocks me about MK ban? That fact that Japan, the place that seems to ban EVERYTHING has not banned MK.

That shouldn't shock you at all...
The reason people ban other things is (for the most part) so that they don't have to ban MK

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I cannot help but call you a Dumb *** Dude

w/e u say daughter

 

[ShadowLink84]

w/e u say daughter

You're gonna be a purple Mewtwo.

 

[Illuvial]

That shouldn't shock you at all...
The reason people ban other things is (for the most part) so that they don't have to ban MK

Japan is the same place that has a single stage for S64, banned Seth in SSF4, had Ultimecia, Feral Chaos and Exdeath banned in Final Fantasy Duodecim (along with having only 1 universal equipment set and 5 stages compared to the almost completely free equipment customization that the other regions offered and a 18 stage list on top of Exdeath and Ultimecia being legal in other regions).

It surprises me because Japan bans everything even somewhat OP, and MK is a prime candidate compared to some other stuff they have banned!

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh I thought you meant all the other stuff they banned in Brawl. XD

 

[FreedomFighter]

Umm Japan never banned Seth in SSF4. He simply wasn't selectable in the Arcade machines at first.

Also DDD is awesome.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ShadowLink nailed it with the Ivan Ooze comparison.

If Brawl were Power Rangers, M2K and Anti and **** would be playing Ivan Ooze and we'd be having the same discussion we are now. Ivan players would cry about how much work they've done, their harem of fanboys would come to defend them. Their results with Ivan Ooze would pass for skill as players and the Power Rangers community would be all like "omg they know the game the best so we should let them make the rules to the game that provides them all with 90% of their money LOLOLOL, no conflict of interest there" and they'd all go laugh at us for being stupid enough to let them get away with it while we suck their proverbial ***** and continue dealing with Ivan Ooze's bull**** until the next Power Rangers game comes out. Every few years there'd be a new Ivan Ooze player that would appear and he'd like, destroy some e-famous low and mid tier players in tournament and rise to stardom and we'd fawn over how good they are and suddenly let them make all of the rules too.

TL;DR I'm tired of MK and his Cinderella stories.

 

[Illuvial]

Umm Japan never banned Seth in SSF4. He simply wasn't selectable in the Arcade machines at first.

Also DDD is awesome.

He was always selectable, he just had to be unlocked. He was actually banned for a short period of time, but that ban has lifted.

And the stupidity in the Brawl community is seriously killing this game. No one will want to play this game in tournaments after SSB4 if MK remains legal.

 

[Dcold]

Well that's leaping to a conclusion with little reasoning.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think metaknight can still become a lot better because his utilt, and side b are underused. Side b can be used to kill opponents far offstage when mk has a stock lead (because he will likely die after) and it probably has other uses. I see CT Zero use it the most. And utilt is another good kill move mk has. Mk's kill moves become stale a lot (nair,dsmash, shuttle loop) so another kill move is very helpful imo. I don't see utilt used a lot, and it seems very good. It beats moves from above mk like snake's bair.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Remember when we tried to ban MK? Oh yeah, everyone got mad and the site admins themselves shut it down without reason.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think metaknight can still become a lot better because his utilt, and side b are underused. Side b can be used to kill opponents far offstage when mk has a stock lead (because he will likely die after) and it probably has other uses. I see CT Zero use it the most. And utilt is another good kill move mk has. Mk's kill moves become stale a lot (nair,dsmash, shuttle loop) so another kill move is very helpful imo. I don't see utilt used a lot, and it seems very good. It beats moves from above mk like snake's bair.

You must not watch M2k much if you do not see 's using Utilt as a kill move. Weak hit GSL can string into Utilt on most characters. Their options after weak hit GSL are literally airdodge, trade a move, or jump. All will end in them getting hit by some move has.

 

[infiniteV115]

Using sideB as a suicidal gimping tool is a terrible idea. It sends you upwards and can be SDI'd.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why gimp with the drill when MK has reverse SH, dair, nair, and even (kind of) fair?

 

[infiniteV115]

Why kill yourself when you can gimp like every char in the game already (except I guess Pikachu and maybe a few others)

 

[BlueXenon]

You can use the last hit of the move.

 

[Dekillsage]

Hit them with the yolo
MoneyKnight!!!!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Players already use u-tilt and side b sucks compared to his other options. The risk is not worth the reward

 

[ぱみゅ]

Drill Rush is a great surprise move even M2K used a lot at some point (from onstage to slightly offstage to pop up and snap the ledge).

That last convo about MK was stupid btw.

Oh, and imo, Whobo4 was so diverse because the non-MK metagame hasn't evolved.

 

[Delta-cod]

You're right, it hasn't evolved.

So obviously we should keep MK legal since we can just assume that ICs/Olimar will be overcentralizing, and nobody likes them, do they? No need to allow such a metagame to evolve and see how it turns out. Not like ICs/Olimar even have a variety of issues and interesting MUs among mid tiers, like MK does.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink nailed it with the Ivan Ooze comparison.

I sense a misinterpretation.

If Brawl were Power Rangers, M2K and Anti and **** would be playing Ivan Ooze

No.

MetaKnight in himself is not a character that is REMOTELY comparable to Ivan Ooze.
If such were the case, I doubt the community would not ban him.
Maybe.
We're stupid to be honest.

MetaKnight is simply a bit too good.
Too good to the point that the entire game revolves around him.
From matchups (this is okay its expected)
to stage and rulesets (BIG NO NO).

That's really the only reason he is consdiered ban worthy.
He doesn't just define the metagame, he is the metagame and acts strong enough to influence the outside factors such as rulesets.

yo SL64, shiny mewtwo is a minor, calm down romeo

In the most wise words of Grahf.
"Don't get hit."

 

[ぱみゅ]

This whole thing is a big meh for me.

I I mean, why is everyone so adamant on picking a side (and convincing others to pick it), instead of just trying toplay both ways?

For major tournaments TOs are to decide what is best for them, depending on experience, preference, community, possible attendance, etc.
I personally would rather run MK-legal and MK-banned instead of Singles and Doubles.

 

[pidgezero_one]

In the most wise words of Grahf.
"Don't get hit."

That's a very interesting way of putting things and is totally not at all something i'm e-mailing to Chris Hansen at this very moment

 

[Cassio]

I know its not everyones cup of tea but I know I and many others dont really mind a meta-game that leans on MK, find it more entertaining than one based on counter-picking and bracket luck. Also its not terribly correct to use standard regions as an example of character diversity when MK is banned, but I understand how it could be good for some areas.

Honestly, looking at the past few pages, I think people dont realize that the arguments for banning MK (or leaving him legal) are super subjective; and the reason why a national ruleset no longer exists and people simply decide the rules theyd like to use on a region by region basis.

Also I think people are being dishonest with themselves if they believe there isnt a sizable portion of the community that simply do not like a diverse stagelist with or without MK. Japan's always kept it small, and I know on WC/Socal when there was an abundance of stages most people hated it, but kept them for the sake of national solidarity. Then MLG and URC came and added more stages and the regions put up with it until they finally banned metaknight, said screw this, kept MK legal, and slashed the stagelist as had been wanted all along. I personally dont care whether the stagelist is big or small, but some peeps finally got tired of never getting anything.

Edit:Also what Im trying to say for many liberal stage-list advocates, Meta-knight leading to less stages has been a red herring. The stagelist is small because many people wanted them gone, but rather then confront this difficult reality and try to resolve it the blame was pushed on Metaknight. The irony in that is instead of an MK ban leading to massive stage-list nirvana, it just upset the people who only kept them for the sake of national unity and only decided to break ranks when MK was banned. Immediately after many other started banning them too and URC fell apart while even MK banned tournies were shrinking their stagelists.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Also what Im trying to say for many liberal stage-list advocates, Meta-knight leading to less stages has been a red herring. The stagelist is small because many people wanted them gone, but rather then confront this difficult reality and try to resolve it the blame was pushed on Metaknight. The irony in that is instead of an MK ban leading to massive stage-list nirvana, it just upset the people who only kept them for the sake of national unity and only decided to break ranks when MK was banned. Immediately after many other started banning them too and URC fell apart while even MK banned tournies were shrinking their stagelists.

Wasn't the push to ban RC and Brinstar back then primarily because of MK? And isn't the push now to ban Halberd and Delfino because of people thinking MK is too powerful on those stages?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

In the most wise words of Grahf.
"Don't get hit."

Dude that's Isai's quote don't try and give it to someone else.

 

[bubbaking]

All the Impacts I've hosted have been MK banned since that was the most popular one by vote so I'm not sure what you're saying /:

I know that! I attended many of those Impacts. However, I'm fairly certain that every time you brought up the ruleset poll, you always voted for MK-legal (can't remember whether it was APEX or URC ruleset, though). I also kinda assumed that you helped Vinnie with that other series of MK-legal tourneys (I think it was LI Uprising or Collision, but not sure again) that was going on alongside Impact since they were taking place at that venue and you (and Coontail) work at that venue. If that wasn't the case, then I deeply apologize.

I know for sure that Vinnie was hosting a lot of MK-legal stuff. The person I'm least sure about is Coontail. I was really happy that we both agreed that PS2 is trash and should never really be legal, though.

DOn't you hate it when you're trying to cash a cheque and then the teller says "sorry sir but this number is too big to legally exist" i hate that

Maybe you were in the USA and the teller was telling you that he only cashes in "checks".

 

[GOofyGV]

It kinda sucks that PS2 is Legal in Germany. Good side is that only like 3 or 4 players use it as counterpick =)

 

[bubbaking]

Japan is the same place that has a single stage for S64, banned Seth in SSF4, had Ultimecia, Feral Chaos and Exdeath banned in Final Fantasy Duodecim (along with having only 1 universal equipment set and 5 stages compared to the almost completely free equipment customization that the other regions offered and a 18 stage list on top of Exdeath and Ultimecia being legal in other regions).

It surprises me because Japan bans everything even somewhat OP, and MK is a prime candidate compared to some other stuff they have banned!

Don't forget how they (and everyone, I think) banned Akuma in SSF II. They had a single stage in SSB 64 so that they could have a reason to keep Pika (and, to a lesser extent, Kirby) legal, the same way their Brawl rules are REALLY keeping MK in check.

I have to admit, though, that the Japanese ruleset actually did its job really well. There is actually a good bit of diversity over in Japan and there are a lot more players/chars who have managed to successfully stand up to MK, thus radically changing their tier list in comparison to ours. Fox is a good example. Yui does really well against MKs and Fox is Top/High Tier on their tier list. Meanwhile, Pika, who has an even MU with MK in our rulesets and is fairly high in OUR tier list is actually fairly low in the Japanese tier list.

Well that's leaping to a conclusion with little reasoning.

A more reasonable conclusion with more conclusive reasoning would be that every Smash game's tournament activity will practically die out if SSB4 turns out to be even the slightest bit fun or balanced.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It kinda sucks that PS2 is Legal in Germany. Good side is that only like 3 or 4 players use it as counterpick =)

But what's wrong with PS2? Specially if nobody use it anyway.

 

[GOofyGV]

Well. The thing I hate about the stage is that some of the transformations just mess up with timing, spacing etc. I don't really have a problem with it but I can understand others having a problem with it.

 

[Illuvial]

I don't hate MK because he limits the stagelist (only part of the problem) I hate him because he wrecks 90% of the cast and destroys diversity because a lot of characters can't handle MK.

 

[bubbaking]

That stage is the devil. The truth shall set you free!

 

[Cassio]

Wasn't the push to ban RC and Brinstar back then primarily because of MK? And isn't the push now to ban Halberd and Delfino because of people thinking MK is too powerful on those stages?

Cant speak for every region, but I know ours always hated those stages. I think it was mostly pro-ban advocates saying ppl only wanted the stages banned bc of MK, and then became surprised when the community wanted them gone anyways. Keep in mind theres an entire country thats likes using just 3 stages, I dont think its hard to believe that some peeps are inclined to advocate for less stages when they can.