Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dekillsage]

Wouldn't mind MK being legal if mk banned events were also ran along side it. Oh well I guess people really love fighting a character who's entire existence is a frame trap.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Heard Keitaro say on stream that Frigate and Delfino are likely going away because of MK.

It isn't a red herring.

 

[Dcold]

Alex Strife had his tournament with Halberd off last week, simply because of the hazards and things during the match.

 

[Dekillsage]

Dekillsage, could you tell me how badly Snake beats Ness?

It's like... +2 snake I think? Cause of kill power, grab release to ftilt/utilt(I think utilt lol. I don't play this mu ever) and ness's spacing tools being nerfed because grenades hit it. You have to learn how to sdi ftilt after grab release if you want to stand a chance and somehow manage to take snakes jump off stage so you can spike him out of cypher. All I'm aware of, good luck

 

[BSP]

I know its not everyones cup of tea but I know I and many others dont really mind a meta-game that leans on MK, find it more entertaining than one based on counter-picking and bracket luck.

I just want to point out that if the game becomes more CP based character wise, I would think that means we have a better balance at top level. It's not our job to make this happen, but it's something to note.

Honestly, looking at the past few pages, I think people dont realize that the arguments for banning MK (or leaving him legal) are super subjective

We as community make our own rules, so everything's going to be subjective. That being said, I think that most of us would agree that if a character forces us to craft the ruleset just to limit him/her, he/she is probably bannable. Of course, if what I just said was true, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.


I think we need to let MK run full throttle in tournament without any restrictions pointed directly at him. This will help with the subjectivity in the issue. Either the character is broken or not.

This brings me to scrooging limits. Why did they come up? Was it because most of the cast could abuse travelling under the stage to avoid conflict and dominate the scene? If this was case, I never saw it, but I'm fine with that reasoning. If not, I think our scrooging limits came up too quickly. Characters who could travel under the stage quickly weren't dominating everything.

Or did the scrooging limits come up because of MK? In that case, we're catering the ruleset to address a single character, which is a clear indication that we are aware that we must restrict the character in order for him to be manageable in normal play. If that's the case, I would think the character is broken.

Side Note: if infinite stalling is banned, what's the point of having a clause that bans MK's IDC? The purpose of using IDC is pretty clear.

Also, EDC. MK isn't stalling when he does it, nor is he making the match unplayable, and there are clear tactical advantages to using it over rolling, spotdodging, running, etc. Why is it banned? It's easier to limit this since the limit is discrete and really only targets MK, but once again, we have to cater the ruleset to limit a character. This is like the hypothetical a few pages ago saying that if Ivan Ooze was in this game, we'd restrict his special usage (oh wait, we do for MK lol). Why not just ban the character? It's something to think about.
MK with EDC (idk how long he could hold it; distinguishing it from IDC is another challenge in itself) would be lulzy, but it's limits like these you've got to think about when if you claim MK isn't broken.

so either deal with it where you are or be upset quietly, please.

Isn't the point of the forum to talk and share ideas? I agree with your reasoning for actually getting something done, but not this part.

 

[Delta-cod]

I know its not everyones cup of tea but I know I and many others dont really mind a meta-game that leans on MK, find it more entertaining than one based on counter-picking and bracket luck. Also its not terribly correct to use standard regions as an example of character diversity when MK is banned, but I understand how it could be good for some areas.

I'd just like to say that even in the MK-legal environment, the metagame still leans towards being reliant on bracket luck for everyone except the MK mains. Falcos have to worry about their ICs/Pikas, ICs/Olimar need to worry about meeting characters that will abuse their bad stages/the characters they have bad MUs with, and this applies to about everyone but MK. MK players are the only ones who don't really need to worry about bracket luck, unless they have specific player vs. player issues that they'd like to avoid.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This brings me to scrooging limits. Why did they come up? Was it because most of the cast could abuse travelling under the stage to avoid conflict and dominate the scene? If this was case, I never saw it, but I'm fine with that reasoning. If not, I think our scrooging limits came up too quickly. Characters who could travel under the stage quickly weren't dominating everything.

Errr... this is oversimplifying what actually happened. When planking regulations were added, lots of MK players just started gliding under the stage over and over again without grabbing the ledge to do effectively the same thing without affecting the ledge counter, so they had to add yet another rule to make sure MK mains played nice.

It never became a huge problem because it was nipped in the bud so quickly. Doesn't mean MK isn't broken as **** though!

 

[B0NK]

Cant speak for every region, but I know ours always hated those stages. I think it was mostly pro-ban advocates saying ppl only wanted the stages banned bc of MK, and then became surprised when the community wanted them gone anyways. Keep in mind theres an entire country thats likes using just 3 stages, I dont think its hard to believe that some peeps are inclined to advocate for less stages when they can.

Some may have said that. But it wasn't the main evidence for him being over-centralized, and Pro-Ban argument was over-centralization is a criteria to ban a character.

Pro-Ban said, "He's over-centralized. A characters that is so strong he completely centralizes the metagame into just beating the unbeatable is ban-worthy."

Anti-Ban said, "He's not over-centralizing, look at these other characters doing 'well' against MK. You have to prove to us he's over-centralizing."

*Pro-Ban provides all the evidence that MK is winning the most tourneys, and money in those tourneys, at all level of play*

Pro-Ban said, "Here's the evidence that he's ban-worthy."

Anti-Ban said, "Hold a poll after presenting this evidence."

Last poll results were 75.91% of SWF that voted were in favor of banning MK.

*MK banned after Apex 2012*

MK mains tell their TO friends not to ban him, because they want to be able to win still. TO's unban MK

Anti-Ban said, "We need MK or we'll be worst than Japan!"

*MK unbanned, URC disbanded*

Anti-Ban said, "Lol stop crying, just get better or pick MK yourself" As if this solves the problem
*Everyone starts complaining about MK in teams*

*One MK per team becomes standard* And you still need MK on your team to win.
All of MK's "soft counters" have become more and more in MK's favor with time. (Snake, Diddy, Fox (lol), Olimar, and now IC's [only on neutral only stagelist] and ZSS).

Pro-Ban now feels like they wasted their time collecting data, while Anti-ban provided no data, did no work to prove the character isn't broken (because they didn't have to, burden of proof they cried!). He was proven over-centralizing. (Those who say he's not, look at Delfino and Halberd banning discussion now, look at how MK's ledge grab limit is lower, look at all discussions of air and ground time rules, look at scrooging rules, look at how much money MK earns compared to other characters, look at MK's success compared to other characters, look and think about MK's match up spread).

There have even been tournaments in NY/NJ, the land of the MK mains, in which polls were held on which ruleset people preferred, and then that ruleset was used in tourney. The majority opinion preferred preferred Apex ruleset and MK Banned. The polls were then stopped being held, since the TOs are Anti-banned, and didn't want to continue to hold what the majority wanted. (Why? Idk, seems like a dumb business decision to me, but that's their decision.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why can't we all just agree that this topic is dumb and subjective, creates unnecessary opinion wars that make nobody change their minds, and in the end every TO is entitled to choose their own rulesets?

 

[Dekillsage]

Nope can't be done.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why can't we all just agree that this topic is dumb and subjective, creates unnecessary opinion wars that make nobody change their minds, and in the end every TO is entitled to choose their own rulesets?

With all due respect (seriously, nothing against you): **** that noise.

The game is rigged. Read B0NK's post again, and if you still don't get it, read it again.

The whole thing is ludicrously unethical.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That success and popularity thread was kind of dumb. It took pot bonuses into account. I'm pretty sure the amount of money won by MK would not be as much if you didn't include pot bonuses

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah it's not like pot bonuses affect any other characters when you have nothing but MK in the top 6 anyway amirite

 

[B0NK]

That success and popularity thread was kind of dumb. It took pot bonuses into account. I'm pretty sure the amount of money won by MK would not be as much if you didn't include pot bonuses

Ask John#'s for the excel file yourself and prove to yourself that it wouldn't change the fact that MK has the most success and popularity at all levels of play by a large margin.

Pro-Ban provided Anti-Ban all the data, don't just speculate and dismiss it without even trying to show "the amount of money won by MK would not be as much if you didn't include pot bonuses." The data is there, go ahead and show everyone otherwise.

And of course it wouldn't be as much in dollar amounts, less money means less money to win. But comparing the percentage won by other characters to the percentage won by MK would still be a huge gap between MK and the rest of the cast.

Anti-Ban is just lazy, and know they can just rely on their TO friend's to never hold a poll in their region and keep MK legal.

I understand it's TO's discretion, all I'm suggesting is holding a poll for the people attending the tournament to see which would be the most popular ruleset.

More popular ruleset = more happy attendees = more profit from a tournament.

But nope, let's just keep the status quo that TOs don't want to make their Top player MK maining friend unhappy since they might not show up if he's banned. He's your friend and not showing up to your tourneys which had rulesets that were voted on? Too bad, must not be much of a friend.

If your poll shows your local community would rather not have MK banned, then host an MK-legal event. It works both ways and leads to more profit for the TO and a growing, happy local community.

Yes I'm salty the ruleset polls have stopped happening in my community, because it is unfair. The polls were stopped in NY/NJ because the polls consistently led to MK banned events, so the TO got rid of the polls so that he can hold MK legal events like he wanted.

MK is still legal in this community purely because of selfishness, not because of majority opinion or because data shows he isn't broken. It's actually the exact opposite.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Pro ban is lazy. They should just get better at the game. Sharking isn't even really that difficult to combat. MK's air speed isn't even that good and most characters can just walk away from a sharking MK. If they run out of space or just want to avoid being predictable, they can just roll away.

 

[Dekillsage]

Pro ban is lazy? Sorry we don't play a character who's borderline broken

 

[B0NK]

Pro ban is lazy. They should just get better at the game. Sharking isn't even really that difficult to combat. MK's air speed isn't even that good and most characters can just walk away from a sharking MK. If they run out of space or just want to avoid being predictable, they can just roll away.

It's arguments like this that keep the problem from being solved. Pro Ban has gotten better at the game, there are even top Pro-Ban MK mains. They stop bothering trying to get MK banned when they saw there was no point. Cause Anti-ban arguments like this are simply "Nah, forget all the data we asked you to provide. Just get better or pick MK yourself." How does this fix the problem of MK over-centralization? How does this stop of banning stages, that both anti-ban and pro-ban believe to be fine?

Sharking isn't even the only problem MK creates, just one of many. Many rules that are discussed hurt multiple characters in the cast's viability, but because MK is legal, people would rather have MK limited and hurt other characters that use the stages, then just banning MK (leaving the stages legal, and not hurting characters that use the stages) or even simply holding a poll on what people would prefer in their local community.

Pro-Ban isn't bad at this game, many Pro-ban that use characters other than MK have put tons of work into developing their character and placing higher.

Won't stop the fact that maining MK would allow them to place higher, have more success, and win more than that. Non-MK mains do everything they can to beat MK, to combat MK, since MK is the entire metagame. It's over-centralized around him. MK placings have only gotten more consistant, and they've just widened the match up gap more and more with time. Why would this trend change? What groundbreaking data do you have that will show everyone that this trend will change?

 

[NickRiddle]

This discussion is happening again?
Pro-Ban, Anti-Ban is never going to get it.
Anti-Ban, MK is ****ing stupid.

Argument~

 

[SaveMeJebus]

They already tried no LGL. Remember Will vs. Rich Brown? There shouldn't even really be a scrooging limit. If you hit MK off stage while he is gliding, he loses his ability to glide. IDC is stalling and stalling is banned

 

[infiniteV115]

>Pro ban side just needs to get better.
>Pro ban should roll out of shield pressure because that's unpredictable

 

[B0NK]

Forgot MK magically lost his 2nd glide he always has access to no matter how many times you hit him.

 

[NickRiddle]

Will vs. Rich Brown has been shown to be a ****ty argument... For a while.
If you hit MK while he's gliding he does lose it... But that would require you to go out where MK is to stop it. The only person I've ever seen do that and get away with it is Salem, and that shouldn't even work.
IDC could be argued to be MK not feeling safe enough to stop being invisible.

Also, in terms or the ruleset being affected by MK, stages are a bigger deal than small things like a LGL and a Scrooging rule. So many decent/good stages are banned, or going to be banned, because MK is stupid.

None of this matters, as you're just going to bring up ****ty counter-arguments to every point, just like every Anti-Ban person does.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@BONK, Go ahead and scrooge with that. One of two things will happen if you do. You will grab the ledge increasing your LGs or you will get edge hogged and fall to your death

@Nickriddle, Characters with projectiles don't have to risk going outside and we've banned more stages because of DDD than we have for MK. Also, The same could be argued for infinites that exceed 300%

 

[B0NK]

They already tried no LGL. Remember Will vs. Rich Brown? There shouldn't even really be a scrooging limit. If you hit MK off stage while he is gliding, he loses his ability to glide. IDC is stalling and stalling is banned

Remember Coney vs M2K?

I thought that was much worse, since Coney didn't have the option of CPing a character that counters MK.

Rich Brown could have CP'd D3 or a similar bad match-up for DK.

Regardless LGL would be up for a vote using my suggestion. In NY/NJ most people preferred MK Banned with Apex Ruleset.

Now I just have to wait for when someone tells me, "Why should I have to be able to play multiple characters and CP in order to win?"

idk, maybe because it shows how skillful you are at the game, and not just with one character who beats down on the entire cast and has an answer to every situation the opponent may put them in.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Do you really think DDD still goes +4 against DK without a LGL?

 

[NickRiddle]

Go ahead and scrooge with that. One of two things will happen if you do. You will grab the ledge increasing your GLs or you will get edge hogged and fall to your death

@Nickriddle, Characters with projectiles don't have to risk going outside and we've banned more stages because of DDD than we have for MK. Also The same could be argued for infinites that exceed 300%

Only characters with projectiles should be able to do anything about a certain tactic then? Also, most projectiles are complete ****ing ass and couldn't do anything about it. Diddy/Falco/Snake/Fox would be the only three characters who could maybe-kinda-semi-reliably hit MK.

Also, far fewer stages have been banned for DDD... That had nothing else bad about them. YI:M, Pikmin stage, Snake's stage, and Eldin are the only ones I can think of that were banned because DDD... and his CG isn't even that good on slopes so that was just stupid. I already know Brinstar/Rainbow/PS2 (for some reason) were banned because of MK, and now Keitaro's going to ban two more. 4<5.

 

[B0NK]

@BONK, Go ahead and scrooge with that. One of two things will happen if you do. You will grab the ledge increasing your LGs or you will get edge hogged and fall to your death

@Nickriddle, Characters with projectiles don't have to risk going outside and we've banned more stages because of DDD than we have for MK. Also, The same could be argued for infinites that exceed 300%

Forgot MK can't glide faster than a character could run. Tell me how a character that went off stage to take MK's glide is going to get back on stage, run to the other side, and grab the ledge before MK glides there? And since when did we not have stages like Smashville where MK scrooges and doesn't have to grab the ledge? MK will always have an answer, he does for every situation.

And cool, D3 got rid of stages people think are dumb with or without D3, (since other characters can CG off walk offs, including MK). While MK is the reason why perfectly good and consistant stages are being banned.

 

[B0NK]

Do you really think DDD still goes +4 against DK without a LGL?

I never believe D3 vs DK is +4, so stop putting words in my mouth. I said there are characters Rich Brown could have CP'd that combat DK's planking better than Oli. Like ZSS, for example. There are no characters you can CP that can combat MK's.

The Rich Brown vs Will argument is a bad counter-argument, stop using it.

EDIT: So when are you going to stop dodging my suggestions and other points? Done arguing with you until you do.

You know, since that's what Anti-ban did to Pro-ban before when they asked for the data showing MK is over-centralized. Then they showed them the data and they ignored it. Doubt a majority of Anti-ban proponents would ask for Jebus to represent them anyway.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Only characters with projectiles should be able to do anything about a certain tactic then? Also, most projectiles are complete ****ing *** and couldn't do anything about it. Diddy/Falco/Snake/Fox would be the only three characters who could maybe-kinda-semi-reliably hit MK.

Also, far fewer stages have been banned for DDD... That had nothing else bad about them. YI:M, Pikmin stage, Snake's stage, and Eldin are the only ones I can think of that were banned because DDD... and his CG isn't even that good on slopes so that was just stupid. I already know Brinstar/Rainbow/PS2 (for some reason) were banned because of MK, and now Keitaro's going to ban two more. 4<5.

Those characters without projectiles just have to work a little harder. Any character with a projectile can hit MK while he's gliding.

As for DDD, You are also forgetting Mushoomy kingdom 1 and the Mario Kart stage

@BONK, I said one of two things would happen and characters with projectiles don't have to go offstage.. Also, some people think that Delfino is dumb so that is a dumb arguement

 

[B0NK]

Those characters without projectiles just have to work a little harder. Any character with a projectile can hit MK while he's gliding.

As for DDD, You are also forgetting Mushoomy kingdom 1 and the Mario Kart stage

@BONK, I said one of two things would happen. Also, some people think that Delfino is dumb so that is a dumb arguement

And I say that they don't keep MK from being over-centralized and ban worthy. What's your point again showing me MK isn't ban worthy? People think the stages that DDD got banned, would still be banned. Since more characters than just D3 can abuse walk-offs with walk-off chaingrabs, including MK.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

My point is that all the rules that you said are there because of MK would still be there if you banned him.

 

[B0NK]

Maybe, but Delfino, Halberd, and Frigate would always be legal too if MK was banned. There would also be a universal LGL if MK was banned. There would have never been a discussion of air and ground time rules. There would likely not even be a scrooging rule if MK was banned before they were discussed.

So out of what I said:

(Those who say he's not, look at Delfino and Halberd banning discussion now, look at how MK's ledge grab limit is lower, look at all discussions of air and ground time rules, look at scrooging rules, look at how much money MK earns compared to other characters, look at MK's success compared to other characters, look and think about MK's match up spread).

What was wrong about these rules being a direct result of MK being over-centralizing?

And are you against the idea of rulesets being voted on before a tourney by the attendees of the tourneys?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Again, DDD got more stages banned than MK. There is no reason why MK's LGL should be lower. The air time rules is like the LGL in that it is there to stop planking from all characters (like DK). If I held a tournament, put up 1,000,000,000$ to first place and Salem won, would that make ZSS broken? MK is more successful than every other character because he is the best character in the game. Plain and simple

 

[B0NK]

Again, DDD got more stages banned than MK.

Again, those stages would be banned with or without DDD. The stages MK is getting banned would not be. How many times should we all repeat ourselves?

There is no reason why MK's LGL should be lower.

Prove this, since the majority disagrees with you, the burden of proof is on you. It's been shown multiple times that MK's ledge planking is stronger than the rest of the cast.

The air time rules is like the LGL in that it is there to stop planking from all characters (like DK).

They are there because it makes the game more fun to watch and a majority would prefer to play that ruleset. A majority of players and viewers (around 75% at one point), would prefer to watch and play the game without MK.

If, I held a tournament, put up 1,000,000,000$ to first place and Salem won, would that make ZSS broken?

Of course not, but go get John#'s excel file with all the data and show me that taking out the bonus pot money makes a huge difference in the large margin MK is ahead of the rest of the cast.

MK is more successful than every other character because he is the best character in the game. Plain and simple

MK is more successful than every other character by a huge margin because he's the best in the game, yes. Most people believe the margin is so large, that it is over-centralizing and hurting the ruleset, stagelist, and staling the metagame. And to combat this, MK should be banned.

(He already is partially banned in doubles, so it's clear that even Anti-banned is trying to negotiate a way to make this game more watchable. Unfortunately, MK still has to be used on your team to win. Instead of avoiding the giant elephant in the room, just bring up the discussion and polls again showing what the majority of people believe in. And ban this bat.)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No they wouldn't. Most of the characters that can chain grab on those stages can't do it for very long. Most characters don't go over 35 ledge grabs unless they are trying to stall. Nothing is stopping anyone from hosting MK banned tournaments. MK is an S tier character on the tier list. He is not in the same rank as any of the other characters which is why he does so much better than them. He's making as much as an S tier character should be making

 

[B0NK]

You're ignoring GR CGs.

The S tier character should be banned for reasons I stated before.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ok

10oks

 

[B0NK]

Glad we are in agreement

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm glad MK is still legal

 

[B0NK]