Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dcold]

Don't listen to B0NK he's an ICs main and just wants free wins. I suggest we pour salt water on him and kick him while he sleeps.

 

[MikeKirby]

MK mains tell their TO friends not to ban him, because they want to be able to win still. TO's unban MK

*mindblown*

Wow, you're right. That's NY/NJ in a nutshell if you think a out it. Which is why most of them dropped their main and picked up MK just to compete vs MK legal. If they see you're a an excellent player they will even suggest you pick up MK to be able to compete in their MK swamped environment. Sounds like a corrupt government if you think about it. Aw well... I just wanna play the game I like so much cause of a character I like to play as. Picking up MK would ruin it all for me and make me feel like a conformist. Which I refuse to be~

 

[Dekillsage]

Don't listen to B0NK he's an ICs main and just wants free wins. I suggest we pour salt water on him and kick him while he sleeps.

Stop

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Some may have said that. But it wasn't the main evidence for him being over-centralized, and Pro-Ban argument was over-centralization is a criteria to ban a character.

Pro-Ban said, "He's over-centralized. A characters that is so strong he completely centralizes the metagame into just beating the unbeatable is ban-worthy."

Anti-Ban said, "He's not over-centralizing, look at these other characters doing 'well' against MK. You have to prove to us he's over-centralizing."

*Pro-Ban provides all the evidence that MK is winning the most tourneys, and money in those tourneys, at all level of play*

Pro-Ban said, "Here's the evidence that he's ban-worthy."

Anti-Ban said, "Hold a poll after presenting this evidence."

Last poll results were 75.91% of SWF that voted were in favor of banning MK.

*MK banned after Apex 2012*

MK mains tell their TO friends not to ban him, because they want to be able to win still. TO's unban MK

Anti-Ban said, "We need MK or we'll be worst than Japan!"

*MK unbanned, URC disbanded*

Anti-Ban said, "Lol stop crying, just get better or pick MK yourself" As if this solves the problem
*Everyone starts complaining about MK in teams*

*One MK per team becomes standard* And you still need MK on your team to win.
All of MK's "soft counters" have become more and more in MK's favor with time. (Snake, Diddy, Fox (lol), Olimar, and now IC's [only on neutral only stagelist] and ZSS).

Pro-Ban now feels like they wasted their time collecting data, while Anti-ban provided no data, did no work to prove the character isn't broken (because they didn't have to, burden of proof they cried!). He was proven over-centralizing. (Those who say he's not, look at Delfino and Halberd banning discussion now, look at how MK's ledge grab limit is lower, look at all discussions of air and ground time rules, look at scrooging rules, look at how much money MK earns compared to other characters, look at MK's success compared to other characters, look and think about MK's match up spread).

There have even been tournaments in NY/NJ, the land of the MK mains, in which polls were held on which ruleset people preferred, and then that ruleset was used in tourney. The majority opinion preferred preferred Apex ruleset and MK Banned. The polls were then stopped being held, since the TOs are Anti-banned, and didn't want to continue to hold what the majority wanted. (Why? Idk, seems like a dumb business decision to me, but that's their decision.)

PREACH

 

[Illuvial]

Again, DDD got more stages banned than MK. MK is more successful than every other character because he is the best character in the game. Plain and simple

1) Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Kart, Metal Gear Solid, Pikmin Stage and Eldin are all ridiculously dumb stages that would have been banned anyways. That is such a lame argument...

2) Did you really just say that? "MK wins because he is the best." NO ****ING ****! Why would you use that as an argument?

Baaed on your needlessly obnoxious arguments I have come to the conclusion that you wear a fedora in real life (+100 likes if you get the insult).

 

[B0NK]

Don't listen to B0NK he's an ICs main and just wants free wins. I suggest we pour salt water on him and kick him while he sleeps.

Ad hominem, and false on every point. If I wanted free wins I'd have mained MK back in 08-09.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

There's honestly no point of going to tournaments. Unless you're an MK main then you have no reason going to tournaments since the odds of you winning with a character other than MK are pretty low.

MK is running sh** sadly..

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

MK ban debates are literally the worst thing that has ever happened on this website.

Let's just ignore the issue and all go play Project M instead.

 

[B0NK]

Project M is too much like Melee, I only like Brawl and want to play Brawl

MK does not let me play Brawl

 

[Dekillsage]

Project M 'K

 

[Illuvial]

Why Project M when Balanced Brawl?

Because apparently using Balanced Brawl in Brawl tournaments is never good right?

 

[infiniteV115]

That's definitely not a good idea. Balanced Brawl belongs in Balanced Brawl tournaments, not vBrawl tournaments.
Unless you meant a side event.

 

[CyberZixx]

Ya'll should play Project M. Joinnnnnn ussssss.

 

[Dekillsage]

Ya'll should play Project M. Joinnnnnn ussssss.

Nope.

 

[B0NK]

Ya'll should play Project M. Joinnnnnn ussssss.

Never!

 

[Illuvial]

That's definitely not a good idea. Balanced Brawl belongs in Balanced Brawl tournaments, not vBrawl tournaments.
Unless you meant a side event.

But if you think about it, why deal with an outdated version of Brawl?

Fixed it

 

[infiniteV115]

Nobody's forced to deal with anything cause nobody is ever forced to enter tournaments.
If people want to play vBrawl, they go to vBrawl tournaments.
If people want to play BBrawl, they go to BBrawl tournaments.

Seriously why am I explaining this? This is equivalent to saying you should have Brawl at Smash 64 tournaments because "why force people to deal with an outdated version of Smash?"

 

[Sunnysunny]

But if you think about it, why force people to deal with an outdated version of Brawl?

They're not being forced. Balanced brawl players can host balanced brawl tournaments as they wish.

If I were to go to a tournament that promises Vbrawl and got B-brawl instead, I would consider that forcing.

 

[Sanji Himura]

There's honestly no point of going to tournaments. Unless you're an MK main then you have no reason going to tournaments since the odds of you winning with a character other than MK are pretty low.

MK is running sh** sadly..

While the fact that MK is winning tournaments lately, I think that it is the overemphasis on APEX as being the sort-of national standard because the internationals come to it. Truth is Unity wouldn't have disbanded as a ruleset had it not been for the need for the attraction of the international players, the admittance of internationals to help craft the ruleset, and more communication with the BBR.

Unity needs to be reformed.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Stop whining about people. isn't as linear and stupid to fight as . If you get hit by you do not usually die unless you're terrible at DI. you die if you screw up once and get grabbed.

is so much funner to fight too. Who can say they do not like fighting him? He puts all your wits, tech-skill, adaptation, and reactionary abilities to the ultimate tests. will make you find watching paint dry funner and they do not test any ability a player has other then patience.

 

[Osennecho]

Honestly IC's just encourage a person to pick up MK... They make me sad.... So very sad... If we only realized this way back when people were truly talking of banning MK we could have banned IC's. It honestly would have been good for the community. To late now. And its not like they have to be a camp fest. A perfect case is Otori vs 9B. But unless you know the matchup inside and out and are godlike they do if you want to win. And IMO they discourage new players from joining the competitive scene.
But they are just something we all have to deal with at this point.

 

[B0NK]

Stop whining about people. isn't as linear and stupid to fight as . If you get hit by you do not usually die unless you're terrible at DI. you die if you screw up once and get grabbed.

is so much funner to fight too. Who can say they do not like fighting him? He puts all your wits, tech-skill, adaptation, and reactionary abilities to the ultimate tests. will make you find watching paint dry funner and they do not test any ability a player has other then patience.

I do not agree with you nor do I believe everyone does. The reason you find MK fun to play against are things that the MK player does not have to use himself. MK has an answer to every situation and you're just gambling he doesn't recognize the situation or understands the match up. MK killing you early has nothing to do with one's terrible DI, more so it has to do with whether or not MK is good at covering your options to get back to neutral. Someone not landing against MK from 0% to >100% or death is entirely possible, and just because he finished you after 100% does not mean he didn't let you play for a stock as you tried to land.

ICs are boring, and break the standard way the game is played. ICs changes the risk vs reward for the opponent and forces the opponent not to take to many risk while ICs are grounded and with Nana by there side. They are still not nearly as good as MK though, nor are they even close to ban-worthy. It's completely obvious that people are just as, if not more tired of watching MK dittos as they are watching a match with ICs.

Honestly IC's just encourage a person to pick up MK... They make me sad.... So very sad... If we only realized this way back when people were truly talking of banning MK we could have banned IC's. It honestly would have been good for the community. To late now. And its not like they have to be a camp fest. A perfect case is Otori vs 9B. But unless you know the matchup inside and out and are godlike they do if you want to win. And IMO they discourage new players from joining the competitive scene.
But they are just something we all have to deal with at this point.

They were always something you've had to deal with since 08 and a lot of people have. Some people chose to go about it by picking up MK, which is the obvious choice since he covers all match-ups.

But MK is not their only counter. IC counters include ROB and Snake, and you can also pick up ICs for them. Those are three match ups that don't have to play the completely one dimensional game other match ups do against ICs. They actually just get to play their same game and their "camp fest" is more about zoning like they do in every match-up. IC dittos are the most basic form of brawl and simply test your fundamentals.

MK is just the lazy and boring way out. Most people that pick up MK for ICs play to time them out instead of the match up, because why not? MK can do that to any match up. (Hint the match up is to play against Nana, not the ICs player. After Nana is gone, get SoPo off stage. One-dimensional but effective.)

Those who are so adamantly against ICs don't understand their weaknesses. Those who are so adamantly against MK understand he has no weaknesses and other characters only win against him because the MK main doesn't know the match up or is not well practiced in it. Solo MK mains have huge success over the rest of the cast by a large margin. Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a national/international ever.


EDIT: Also ICs existence in this game has nothing to do with whether or not MK is ban worthy. ICs don't counter MK, and IC have counters besides MK. Stop bringing them up as evidence for people to stop saying MK is ban-worthy. "I hate playing ICs more than I hate playing MK," is not a basis for whether or not MK is ban-worthy or not.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Pro ban is lazy. They should just get better at the game. Sharking isn't even really that difficult to combat. MK's air speed isn't even that good and most characters can just walk away from a sharking MK. If they run out of space or just want to avoid being predictable, they can just roll away.

Anti-ban is lazy. It's not that hard to just pick up another character.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Stop whining about people. isn't as linear and stupid to fight as . If you get hit by you do not usually die unless you're terrible at DI. you die if you screw up once and get grabbed.

is so much funner to fight too. Who can say they do not like fighting him? He puts all your wits, tech-skill, adaptation, and reactionary abilities to the ultimate tests. will make you find watching paint dry funner and they do not test any ability a player has other then patience.

No, you're wrong.

 

[blacktwins13]

Can we talk about ROB? I just have an impulse to talk about ROB, even knowing nothing of the character.

Or Toon Link.

Speaking of "IMPULSE" http://smashboards.com/threads/impu...d-post-june-15th-2013-toronto-ontario.334499/

 

[pidgezero_one]

Do you guys think SWF would be a lot cooler if we could have emoticons in our names?

Someday I dream of perusing these forums with the name FLAOCMASTER666 happily gazing back at me.

 

[ぱみゅ]

FTR:
1) I never said anyone was wrong, I actually think B0NK's posts are very well-written. I just said this whole subject is dumb and nobody would change their stance.
2) Mushroomy Kingdom is not that bad of a stage. Have you ever played on it?
3) Nobody hosts BBrawl tournaments because people are all like "but playing BBrawl is a waste of time because vBrawl is the standard and I want to play it even if I don't like it and complain about it and BBrawl changed everything I complained about for the better". Has anyone here played it at least twice? Honestly.
4) No MK = More stages (at least I would assume so, banning MK and not adding more stages is plain stupid) = Nerfing ICs.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dammit, why are we still talking about this? Nobody's opinion is going to change, so it's pointless.

Let's talk about why Jigglypuff should be high tier instead.

 

[Illuvial]

I find myself playing BBrawl a lot, and the fact that it is not standard baffles me. It would be like SF4 players playing the original game without any updates rather than playing the fully patched version of Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition. Why don't they do it? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PLAY A SUPERIOR VERSION OF A GAME THAT IS ACTUALLY BALANCED AND FIXES ISSUES!

Because Brawl community logic yo!

 

[BlueXenon]

It's completely obvious that people are just as, if not more tired of watching MK dittos as they are watching a match with ICs.

Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a national/international ever.

I would much rather watch mk dittos than Ic's.
And solo ic mains did place top 8 at a international tournament:

1: Rain
2: Vinnie
3: Otori/おおとり
4: Masha/ましゃ
5: 9B
5: Kakera/かけら
7: Mikeneko/みけねこ
7: Mew2king

 

[ぱみゅ]

I find myself playing BBrawl a lot, and the fact that it is not standard baffles me. It would be like SF4 players playing the original game without any updates rather than playing the fully patched version of Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition. Why don't they do it? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PLAY A SUPERIOR VERSION OF A GAME THAT IS ACTUALLY BALANCED AND FIXES ISSUES!

Because Brawl community logic yo!

I will never see BBrawl as an update, but as a different game with the same characters and the same mechanics.

Although I will never understand the Smash Community logic.
BBrawl is not played because it's a waste of time because it's not standard. Then what the hell is P:M?

Great to know I'm not the only one playing BBrawl once in a while though.

 

[Illuvial]

> Meta Knight over-centralizes
- Doesn't get banned

> BBrawl fixes the issues of the game (most of them anyway)
- Isn't standard, why? Because the Brawl community has a collective IQ of 4

MEANWHILE THE MELEE COMMUNITY GETS THEIR GAME AT EVO FOR BEING SUPPORTIVE AND WELCOMES P:M EVEN THOUGH IT IS A MOD!

 

[Omega Tyrant]

BBrawl can't be standard because it's a mod, which creates significant logistic issues, and requires resources beyond just the console and game, which many players do not have access to.

It's why a no tripping code isn't standard, even though it's the one thing that the whole community would agree that improves the game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It does not need to become standard. A mod will never replace the official work.

But it gets hate and lack of interest for no (valid) reason.

 

[Dekillsage]

Stop whining about people. isn't as linear and stupid to fight as . If you get hit by you do not usually die unless you're terrible at DI. you die if you screw up once and get grabbed.

is so much funner to fight too. Who can say they do not like fighting him? He puts all your wits, tech-skill, adaptation, and reactionary abilities to the ultimate tests. will make you find watching paint dry funner and they do not test any ability a player has other then patience.

Fighting MetaKnight is not fun. It's not fun to have a disadvantage vs a character who has every single tool to counter every single thing you throw at him. It's not fun to fight a character where your only chance of winning is to win player vs player while you're at a disadvantage. It's not fun to get auto frame trapped by uair, nair, ftilt, him standing and back roll. I don't like having my shield nado'd, getting a small punish(if I manage to land a punish) and then having my sheild nado'd again so I can get poked -> combo video'd. I don't like the fact that mk can go balls deep off stage and recover with no consequences. I don't like that metaknight can't be edgeguarded. I don't like not being able to win on the character select screen vs mk unless I pick mk. When you're fighting MK you're not testing ****. You don't play brawl when MK is in the game.
Ice Climbers at least have faults. Every Ic player is babysitting an AI that's 5 frames behind in inputs. They have bad match ups (rob, snake) and match ups that lean towards the 55-45/50-50 range (olimar, toon link).

This is basically how people are fighting IC's now.
*mk* Jump dair jump dair jump dair jump dair jump towards sv platform. Jump dair jump dair jump dair ff airdodge into IC's
*ics* Nothing -> try to uair mks landing -> nothing -> grab stupid ff airdodge

You don't beat IC's from running away.(Being patient is not running away)
This is what you need to beat Ics
1)Spacing.
2) What moves you will do to separate the climbers
3) FlowChart on Nana once separated
4) Be wary of IC set ups from 0-30%
You can even use the strategy of trying to get nana and popo @ different %'s so when you hit them both they go flying at different speeds/distances, making it easier to edge guard them.

If your character sucks vs IC's then pick up one that's good vs IC's because we have a ****ing cping system that works when MK isn't around.

I understand IC's are godlike, but since when did being the 2nd best character in brawl mean you're in the same league as MK? Did people consider snake to be anywhere near as good as MK when he was 2nd best? What about Olimar? No???? So why IC's all of a sudden? Oh I see its because they can 0-death people off a grab. I guess that auto mean they don't have any bad match ups, stages and don't struggle from being edge guarded.

 

[B0NK]

I would much rather watch mk dittos than Ic's.
And solo ic mains did place top 8 at a international tournament:

1: Rain
2: Vinnie
3: Otori/おおとり
4: Masha/ましゃ
5: 9B
5: Kakera/かけら
7: Mikeneko/みけねこ
7: Mew2king

I do not consider the Japanese tournament on the same level of Apex, Genesis, Pound, or any other North American national/international because of the lack of player (compared to our nationals), the lack of character diversity (compared to our nationals), and the lack of both European and American players. ICs always place high besides MKs in Japan, it's no surprise they were able to again in this Japanese National +4 Americans.

I can't believe people believe this tournament was on the same level of any Apex, Genesis, or Pound. It didn't have nearly as many high level players as North American nationals/internationals. I consider this Japanese National on the equivalent of North American regionals with a few guest players. Not on the level of a North American national/international.

So I revise my statement simply to Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a North American national/international ever. (The largest tournaments in diversity of both players and characters). If you believe the Japanese National was on the same level as Apex 2013 or and prior, I ask you to re-evaluate how many top player were at each tourney then look at ICs results at national/internationals again.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

MEANWHILE THE MELEE COMMUNITY GETS THEIR GAME AT EVO FOR BEING SUPPORTIVE AND WELCOMES P:M EVEN THOUGH IT IS A MOD!

I just want to say that it was more difficult to get the Melee TO in my region to run PM as a side event than it was to get the Brawl TO to do so.

Plenty of brawl tournaments run PM, because it is a much better game which everyone should play.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pro-ban did everything anti-ban asked for. Pro-ban made an excellent case and backed it up with years worth of painstakingly-collected data and cognizant arguments. And we definitely won that debate. 76% of the Smashboards/Brawl community voted with us to ban Meta Knight from American tournaments.

Anti-ban's response, rather that admitting defeat gracefully, was to use its powerful lobby of top MK players and their close friends, tournament organizers, to step over the community's head to make sure they got what they wanted.

But that kind of "political corruption" is really what I've come to expect from the Brawl community, which is by far the most nepotistic, secretive, collusive community I've ever been a part of.

"This is why I drink." -- B0NK 2013

 

[Sanji Himura]

FTR:
1) I never said anyone was wrong, I actually think B0NK's posts are very well-written. I just said this whole subject is dumb and nobody would change their stance.
2) Mushroomy Kingdom is not that bad of a stage. Have you ever played on it?
3) Nobody hosts BBrawl tournaments because people are all like "but playing BBrawl is a waste of time because vBrawl is the standard and I want to play it even if I don't like it and complain about it and BBrawl changed everything I complained about for the better". Has anyone here played it at least twice? Honestly.
4) No MK = More stages (at least I would assume so, banning MK and not adding more stages is plain stupid) = Nerfing ICs.

As someone who has no formal stance on MK, I agree on point 4. Current Unity ruleset allows Nofair and Rainbow Cruise with no restrictions on a MK player anyways, so what is the difference if he is rebanned anyways? Nothing. In fact, I think banning MK actually restricts a few more stages than would free up, though I don't have the data to prove it yet.

 

[B0NK]

As someone who has no formal stance on MK, I agree on point 4. Current Unity ruleset allows Nofair and Rainbow Cruise with no restrictions on a MK player anyways, so what is the difference if he is rebanned anyways? Nothing. In fact, I think banning MK actually restricts a few more stages than would free up, though I don't have the data to prove it yet.

People will still be against Rainbow, Norfair, and Brinstar. But if you're talking about Haldberd, Delfino, and Frigate, the sure. Since the only reason people are banning those stages is because of MK