Official BBR Tier List v7

[Seagull Joe]

Pro-ban did everything anti-ban asked for. Pro-ban made an excellent case and backed it up with years worth of painstakingly-collected data and cognizant arguments. And we definitely won that debate. 76% of the Smashboards/Brawl community voted with us to ban Meta Knight from American tournaments.

Anti-ban's response, rather that admitting defeat gracefully, was to use its powerful lobby of top MK players and their close friends, tournament organizers, to step over the community's head to make sure they got what they wanted.

But that kind of "political corruption" is really what I've come to expect from the Brawl community, which is by far the most nepotistic, secretive, collusive community I've ever been a part of.

"This is why I drink." -- B0NK 2013

Deal with it.

In terms of covering all of my possible options: That is not true in regards to my character. I always feel I have an option unless I airdodge. The moment I airdodge, my options get severely cut and then I take a high amount of damage. I let Bthrow>SL hit me because I know I will not get combo'd further and it cannot possibly kill. Sometimes I condition the 's to bthrow me offstage and time a fair trade, which ultimately can kill at 120% or put them above me where I want them.

I've learned a lot over the years from playing the vs matchup. It can be difficult at times vs players like Anti, but I have gone toe to toe with nearly every other top . I have not defeated most of them, however, the fact that I get so close to beating a player above my skill level in a losing matchup says something at least. in all intensive purposes, should not be winning a 40-60 matchup at top level that often. The degree of spacing present among the top players of this game is mind-boggling in comparison to the mid and mediocre level players. No matter what, I have enjoyed playing the vs matchup and every time I feel my options are limited, I have found a new way to deal with it.

For the longest time, I was scared of getting nado'd so much on my shield because I lacked a way to punish it. After researching for a bit of time, I realized I could PS the nado or regular shield it and then roll away safely since 's rolls are long. After that, I could punish.

A little research goes a long way. Novice and mid level players should not be expected to beat the high/top level players, especially if they're inexperienced vs the best character in the game. This applies to all games.

;tldr version: Get better and learn from your mistakes.

 

[B0NK]

No!

Deal with it.

I say the same for you and . Except ICs are at least beatable and have weaknesses so you can "deal with it."

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Those who are so adamantly against ICs don't understand their weaknesses. Those who are so adamantly against MK understand he has no weaknesses and other characters only win against him because the MK main doesn't know the match up or is not well practiced in it. Solo MK mains have huge success over the rest of the cast by a large margin. Solo IC mains have never even placed Top 8 at a national/international ever.

SRT was a national bro. Otori & Mikeneko who got 3rd & 5th @ APEX 2013 did not even win the event. Quiksilver came from EU & placed top 10, and lots of good players from Japan didn't even make top 10 @ SRT. And have you forgotten when Lain placed 3rd @ the 1st APEX in 09'? That was considered a national, so ICs never ever placing at a national/international is inaccurate especially considering that there were 3 Ics in top 16 @ the recent Apex.

I'll admit that ICs in the past haven't placed well @ nationals in the past, but I think that is changing due to the new standard rulesets and the fact that the technology for ICs was not as developed as it is now when a lot of the top ICs stopped playing in 2010. Also, ICs have a small player base than pretty much every top tier character, so you are not going to see them swarm results like MK mains.

 

[B0NK]

;tldr version: Get better and learn from your mistakes.

If all the MK mains did this much work for every match up they played, they would get better and never lose to any character. But they don't put this much work into any match up except the MK match up.

You have a disadvantage match-up against MK like everyone else, and you still believe you can beat MK that knows the Wolf match up? Have you ever even played an MK main that knows the Wolf match-up as well as you know the MK match up? You truly believe Wolf/Non-MK character main for bad match ups will ever win a National? Or even that a Wolf can defeat all the MKs it faces?

Maybe you're happy with losing to MK with Wolf, but many know that if the MK knows the match up, to any match up, the MK should always win.

The only way to get better and learn from our mistakes against MK is realizing our mistake was going any other character besides MK against MK.

 

[B0NK]

SRT was a national bro. Otori & Mikeneko who got 3rd & 5th @ APEX 2013 did not even win the event. Quiksilver came from EU & placed top 10, and lots of good players from Japan didn't even make top 10 @ SRT. And have you forgotten when Lain placed 3rd @ the 1st APEX in 09'? That was considered a national, so ICs never ever placing at a national/international is inaccurate especially considering that there were 3 Ics in top 16 @ the recent Apex.

Still not even close to the same amount of players, top players, character diversity, and matches as Apex, Genesis, and Pound. Lain used MK, he did not go Solo ICs. If you wanted to use a top IC player who used a secondary Esam would have been a better choice. And since when is Top 16 = Top 8?

Solo IC mains have never placed Top 8 at any North American national/international ever. (Which are significantly larger than Japan's one national tournament).

I'll admit that ICs in the past haven't placed well @ nationals in the past, but I think that is changing due to the new standard rulesets and the fact that the technology for ICs was not as developed as it is now when a lot of the top ICs stopped playing in 2010. Also, ICs have a small player base than pretty much every top tier character, so you are not going to see them swarm results like MK mains.

All of ICs technology was discovered in 2010. Even DeLux's desyncs were discovered in 2010. ICs top player base is no more smaller than Falco, Diddy, Marth, ZSS, and Olimar's, all of which have placed Top 8 or higher. The rulesets are in ICs favor more than ever and they still can't place Top 8 at a North American national/international.

 

[Dekillsage]

Get better and learn from mistakes so you can do better vs Mk and not ever win!

 

[ぱみゅ]

-1 is a very winnable mathup though and MK has plenty of them.
MK is not that good omnipotent god-like character you're trying to describe.
He's just very, very good at several key aspects. But it's a mortal.


That being said, I just want to let everyone know I'm neither pro nor anti ban.

Solo IC mains have never placed Top 8 at any North American national/international ever. (Which are significantly larger than Japan's one national tournament).

ESAM could as well be counted as a solo-ICs because Pikachu doesn't exactly cover its bad MUs...

 

[Dekillsage]

-1 is a very winnable mathup though and MK has plenty of them.
MK is not that good omnipotent god-like character you're trying to describe.
He's just very, very good at several key aspects. But it's a mortal.

People underrate how bad MK beats their character all the time. Mk +2' or worse the majority of the cast. (Doesn't include cps either where it gets even worse)

 

[B0NK]

-1 is a very winnable mathup though and MK has plenty of them.
MK is not that good omnipotent god-like character you're trying to describe.
He's just very, very good at several key aspects. But it's a mortal.

His success gap over the rest of the cast is unreachable by mere mortals.

Other characters can not survive

 

[Dekillsage]

ESAM could as well be counted as a solo-ICs because Pikachu doesn't exactly cover its bad MUs...

Snake

 

[B0NK]

ESAM could as well be counted as a solo-ICs because Pikachu doesn't exactly cover its bad MUs...

Yeah the player who goes Pikachu at least for game 1 against every player is a Solo IC main, right...

And as Sage said, Pikachu covers Snake, ICs bad match up. Pikachu is also better on more CP stages than ICs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ESAM goes Pikachu until he loses then switches to ICs to save the day

 

[GOofyGV]

uhm Snake is not that bad for IC's. I don't understand where you get that logic from.

 

[B0NK]

Snake vs ICs is 60:40 Snake's advantage. Every IC player has a negative record vs Snake when using ICs.

Idk where you get the idea that it's not that bad, probably came from the same idea where people think MK vs ICs is not that bad for ICs.

ICs disadvantage match ups are Snake, ROB, and MK.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Out of 4 Apex events, MK has only won one. Such a broken character. Players who are good at the MK match up had to learn it from somewhere which means they should never be losing the match up they learned from the other player. Yet you still see this happen

 

[GOofyGV]

well the thing is. People know the mk mu better then the mk knows the mu against them in most cases. But In the case where the mk knows the mu as good as the other player and is same skill the mk will most likely win the set.

 

[B0NK]

MK players lose against 60:40 MK advantage match ups when they don't know the match up and their opponent knows the MK match up. Are you trying to tell me that ZSS, Snake, and Falco are going to win another Apex? Do you really think that?

There have never been repeat character wins because the MK players stop being lazy and go and learn the match up that they lose to. Because MK can beat every match up if he knows it and puts as much work into it as every player has put work into beating MK.

Apex results still show that MK is over-centralized in the metagame. And have more success and popularity than other characters by a large margin.

 

[Dekillsage]

One match in the top 8 didn't have a MK in it this year.

One. Nope MK doesn't dominate the metagame.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@BONK, The only reason that's true is because there are more top MKs than there are top players for every other character in the game. You can go on youtube and see a top or at least high level match up of an MK vs. any other character in the game. You can't say the same for every other character in the game who usually only have one top level player. I can see those characters winning these tournaments again. I can also see Diddy and ICs taking it next year.

@Dekillsage, Blame the players, not the character. If other top players can do it, why can't they?

 

[B0NK]

@BONK, The only reason that's true is because there are more top MKs than there are top players for every other character in the game. You can go on youtube and see a top or at least high level match up of an MK vs. any other character in the game. You can't say the same for every other character in the game who usually only have one top level player.

MK players can research those match ups too, since there is a top level non-MK player vs MK player video for every character. Most of the top MK players have access to players that they can practice the match up on. MK players are being lazy and not researching the match-ups like their opponent is.

I can see those characters winning these tournaments again. I can also see Diddy and ICs taking it next year.

I can't, and they won't. There's no trend or evidence to show that they will. ICs have never placed Top 8 at a North American national/international ever, why do you think they'll place 1st at the next one?

 

[Delta-cod]

Out of 4 Apex events, MK has only won one. Such a broken character. Players who are good at the MK match up had to learn it from somewhere which means they should never be losing the match up they learned from the other player. Yet you still see this happen

They can just learn the MU against a variety of top MKs.

Say we can qualify how many sets it takes to learn a MU. Let's set this number at 4.

Salem plays a MK vs. ZSS set against Anti, then against M2K, then against Zero, then against Nairo, and that's 4/4.

Each of these top MKs are still only at 1/4.

Non-MK characters get the opportunity to learn their MK MU from a variety of players, so they get all the MU experience while spreading it thin across the MK mains.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@BONK, I'm saying that this is the reason why MK players can learn match ups so quick.

There doesn't have to be any evidence. It's just the simple fact that they are some of the best characters in the game. There wasn't any evidence to show that ZZS would ever win an international and yet, she did

@Delta-cod, it's more like, MK's get to see 4 different ways to approach the ZSS mu and 4 different playstyles and habits, while the ZSS player gets stuck with one player that has the same playstyle and same habits

 

[Delta-cod]

How does that even follow? Are you assuming all these sets are recorded and each MK player is studying the others' attempts at playing the MU? As for ZSS, what you said directly contradicts the example I put forth. My example is specifically about a ZSS player playing a VARIETY of MK mains. A non-MK player only fighting one MK main for experience is completely unrealistic, because MK mains are everywhere. There's absolutely no way the ZSS player is only playing one MK main over and over.

I'd argue that the MK players are the ones who get stuck with the one player that has the same playstyle and same habits.

 

[B0NK]

@BONK, I'm saying that this is the reason why MK players can learn match ups so quick.

Doesn't change the fact MK has an advantage match up against every character, and that other character mains have access to the same videos vs MK. So stating that as the reason other character mains lose to MK-players is a poor argument, and far from the main reason. The main reason is that MK simply has an advantage against every character except himself. Not that other character mains can't use the same videos to learn the MK match-up. If anything MK mains have less video to study of different playstyles of other characters while other character mains have access to plenty of MK playstyles.

There doesn't have to be any evidence. It's just the simple fact that they are some of the best characters in the game. There wasn't any evidence to show that ZZS would ever win an international and yet, she did

It's a simple fact that what you are stating is purely speculation with no evidence or prior trends to support it. I could just as easily say ROB, Snake, or Marth will win the next Apex. Let's not cite the future Apex results until they actually happen please.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What I am saying is that the MK players get 4 different players that have their own play styles and ways to approach the match up. The ZSS only has one player with his play style and his ways of approaching the match up.

@BONK, MK does have some even match ups and some match ups where the better player will always come out on top.

Also, I didn't say what ever you quoted about me. Diddy and ICs are doing really well in tournaments. Vinnie and ADHD have been taking games from players like Zero. If you want videos or tournament results from Apex 2014, then I'm sorry but I can't get those videos or results.

 

[Dekillsage]

This is what Mk's do. They dominate, lose to some match up they don't know, learn the match up and proceed to dominate again, then lose to another match up they forgot or didn't know again. Then this cycle repeats. Note that when Mks lose its almost always extremely temporary. Ic's and snake are the only chars I can think of with a history of going even with mk but snakes time has ended and Ic's time will too.

 

[Blacknight99923]

This is what Mk's do. They dominate, lose to some match up they don't know, learn the match up and proceed to dominate again, then lose to another match up they forgot or didn't know again. Then this cycle repeats. Note that when Mks lose its almost always extremely temporary. Ic's and snake are the only chars I can think of with a history of going even with mk but snakes time has ended and Ic's time will too.

falllllllccoooo

 

[B0NK]

What I am saying is that the MK players get 4 different players that have their own play styles and ways to approach the match up. The ZSS only has one player with his play style and his ways of approaching the match up.

This also means that the MK player only sees MK's playing against one particular playstyle. Which means no matter how many MK playstyles the MK player studies, they only know how to play against one type of ZSS playstyle.

MK wins because he has the advantage in every match up. If he knows the match up he wins. The availability of videos do not change this fact, especially when some top players don't even use videos to practice match ups.

 

[Sanji Himura]

People will still be against Rainbow, Norfair, and Brinstar. But if you're talking about Haldberd, Delfino, and Frigate, the sure. Since the only reason people are banning those stages is because of MK

You actually proved my point. Three stages legal under Unity for three that are not. It is ultimately childish to even have this discussion at this point in time.

 

[B0NK]

Then let's not since Unity is no longer, and we would be speculating what would happen if the Unity committee were back again. (Which they aren't, and likely may not ever be).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This also means that the MK player only sees MK's playing against one particular playstyle. Which means no matter how many MK playstyles the MK player studies, they only know how to play against one type of ZSS playstyle.

MK wins because he has the advantage in every match up. If he knows the match up he wins. The availability of videos do not change this fact, especially when some top players don't even use videos to practice match ups.

You say that like they are going to have to face more than one top ZSS at a national. It also matters if the player won or lost a match in the video.

So if the players lose, they are playing the MU wrong? That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Top players are going to make mistakes. It's also player vs. player and not just character vs. character. Maybe in theory, MK has the advantage, but in practice, MK does go even with a lot of the top tier characters

 

[GOofyGV]

Well MK will always be better but being consistant in 37 mu's is always hard even for top players.

 

[B0NK]

You say that like they are going to have to face more than one top ZSS at a national. It also matters if the player won or lost a match in the video.

There was more than one, it's completely possible. You would have to study every combination of both sides of the match-up, and that may not be possible.

So if the players lose, they are playing the MU wrong? That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Top players are going to make mistakes. It's also player vs. player and not just character vs. character. Maybe in theory, MK has the advantage, but in practice, MK does go even with a lot of the top tier characters

If the MK player loses, they are playing the match up wrong, yes.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^MK "goes even" with lots of characters because he doesn't have to learn match-ups to go at least even. MK just zones with his existence and yolo nairfairshuttleloopnados because he doesn't really know his opponent's options, because he doesn't have to.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Deal with it.

In terms of covering all of my possible options: That is not true in regards to my character. I always feel I have an option unless I airdodge. The moment I airdodge, my options get severely cut and then I take a high amount of damage. I let Bthrow>SL hit me because I know I will not get combo'd further and it cannot possibly kill. Sometimes I condition the 's to bthrow me offstage and time a fair trade, which ultimately can kill at 120% or put them above me where I want them.

I've learned a lot over the years from playing the vs matchup. It can be difficult at times vs players like Anti, but I have gone toe to toe with nearly every other top . I have not defeated most of them, however, the fact that I get so close to beating a player above my skill level in a losing matchup says something at least. in all intensive purposes, should not be winning a 40-60 matchup at top level that often. The degree of spacing present among the top players of this game is mind-boggling in comparison to the mid and mediocre level players. No matter what, I have enjoyed playing the vs matchup and every time I feel my options are limited, I have found a new way to deal with it.

For the longest time, I was scared of getting nado'd so much on my shield because I lacked a way to punish it. After researching for a bit of time, I realized I could PS the nado or regular shield it and then roll away safely since 's rolls are long. After that, I could punish.

A little research goes a long way. Novice and mid level players should not be expected to beat the high/top level players, especially if they're inexperienced vs the best character in the game. This applies to all games.

;tldr version: Get better and learn from your mistakes.

Just stop speaking.

 

[Dekillsage]

Well MK will always be better but being consistant in 37 mu's is always hard even for top players.

That's fine. Problem is we have like 7 top mks. You beat one of them good for you. Now beat the other ones.
Salem managing to do this at Apex was pretty funny. Zss so goood amirite guys!?!?!

Just stop speaking.

LOOOOOOOOOL I'm done xD

 

[GOofyGV]

That's fine. Problem is we have like 7 top mks. You beat one of them good for you. Now beat the other ones.

Yeah this is kind of true, Like the 2 tourneys which where 1 month before Apex and 2 weeks before Apex had a full top 3 of MK's and one which was 1 week before Apex had 2 MK's in top 3.
However Probably the 7 best mks on earth where at Apex. But for characters Like Falco and Olimar Importante players where not there as example: Nietono, Brood, Masha and SLS. So some characters just didn't have the ultimate rep they could have had which MK kind of had.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK goes even with these characters because players make mistakes. You hear players say "M2K could have done this to avoid this" but I am willing to bet that at that moment in time the player that is criticizing M2K would have chosen a worse option than M2K. No one can play perfect when it comes down to that moment when you only have a fraction of a second to react to the opponent. Predict what is going to happen before it happens instead of just saying "I would have chosen a better option".

As a character, MK has weaknesses. He has no projectile and he has bad aerial mobility. His list may not be as big as every other character, but that's why he is the best character in the game.

 

[B0NK]

Doesn't change the fact MK has an advantage on every character, has a huge success gap compared to the rest of the cast, 75% of SWF opinions at one point was the character should be banned, and is over-centralized in our metagame. MK is ban-worthy, MK's losing to match ups they play against wrong doesn't change that.

I'm really only suggesting that TOs allow players attending their tournaments to decide the ruleset with a poll. Not just let the one top player friend decide the ruleset. It'll be better for their business and the community.

 

[Dekillsage]

Aerial mobility doesn't matter when he can jump dair, retreat to the ledge, and has nado.
Doesn't need a projectile when he can jump over all of them without consequence.

Yeah this is kind of true, Like the 2 tourneys which where 1 month before Apex and 2 weeks before Apex had a full top 3 of MK's and one which was 1 week before Apex had 2 MK's in top 3.
However Probably the 7 best mks on earth where at Apex. But for characters Like Falco and Olimar Importante players where not there as example: Nietono, Brood, Masha and SLS. So some characters just didn't have the ultimate rep they could have had which MK kind of had.

I really wish nietono and brood came to apex this year. I love watching those guys play v_v