NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Bubba, just to correct you... Snake has 0 landing lag when he lands with a grenade.
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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man this thread is terrible, nothing on this page is even worth moonbasing
Neon!
Smash Lord
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Neon's video is also more recent, so +1 to Neon.
@NR: Oh, I didn't think of that. U right.
@NR: Oh, I didn't think of that. U right.
Why are people posting 2+ year-old videos to talk about a MU.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Single matches don't define matchups, that was the point of my post.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Will won the set, though. 
Also, Will DEFINITELY played the MU wrong that match. It's like he didn't know what the true purpose of a deterrent really is. He threw out that punch nearly every time he landed/descended from a plat. Then again, this was from 2.5 years ago, so I guess times have changed........a lot.
Edit: Holy cow, Will was SO predictable that match. He really did throw out that punch every time he landed. Also, check it out, Will ftilts Wil with a grenade right there WITHOUT being blown up.
Also, Will DEFINITELY played the MU wrong that match. It's like he didn't know what the true purpose of a deterrent really is. He threw out that punch nearly every time he landed/descended from a plat. Then again, this was from 2.5 years ago, so I guess times have changed........a lot.
Edit: Holy cow, Will was SO predictable that match. He really did throw out that punch every time he landed. Also, check it out, Will ftilts Wil with a grenade right there WITHOUT being blown up.
I didn't use it to "define" the matchup but to show how Snake covers DK's landing options. It's not like Cable made any major errors when he landed on the ground, he simply had no options in many of those situations.
That much is very fair. But you can't do that without posting an ancient video?
Idk, it's not like we have good recent videos for every MU (or ever will) but whenever something is brought up from 2011 it's often not productive for a conversation about the current metagame.
Idk, it's not like we have good recent videos for every MU (or ever will) but whenever something is brought up from 2011 it's often not productive for a conversation about the current metagame.
MikeKirby
OTL Winrar
Wuuut? I was under the impression that DK could b-reversal his charge since DK Kirby can! The aerial momentum statement is true, too. It's pretty bad.
Or at least, Kirby's is sub-par.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I disagree.That much is very fair. But you can't do that without posting an ancient video?
Idk, it's not like we have good recent videos for every MU (or ever will) but whenever something is brought up from 2011 it's often not productive for a conversation about the current metagame.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
You can turnaround-B the charge but you can't b-reverse it.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
there isnt a single character thats been brought up in the current conversation that fits the definition of "hard to juggle" not ddd. not snake. not dk.
what does that phrase even mean to you people?
what does that phrase even mean to you people?
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Just gonna respond to a few things into parts
@ speed of our movesets
Honestly none of DK's smashes against snake are scary except for Dsmash. The speed of the other smashes are alright but they don't really help dk at neutral. They do help during bad spots for snake. Dk for example can fsmash snakes shield and make him drop onto the ledge. That's pretty cool. Otherwise it doesn't really... do anything.
@dk not getting juggled
Dude I don't know why you think dk doesn't get juggled but he does and hard. You'll say snake gets juggled but dk is a friggin huge character who can't throw out any move to land or escape any types of pressure. He has charged punch, which still lose to people who put him in juggle. Snake can get juggled, but he can at least go high and stop the juggle momentarily. Dk just... gets hit over and over and over. Snake can frame trap DK with uair, nair, grenades, dash attack usmash. On stages like battlefield any hit leads to dk landing on a platform and getting him c4 stickied. Dk doesn't have any tools to land.
@Punch and hand slap
Punch doesn't have to be challenged with an attack. I can still block it with a grenade or block it -> punish. How much shield I have determines how I will go about attacking a landing Dk with punch. It does its job of making me not want to press buttons, but its not a "oh dk has this now I can't stop him from landing"
@air speed horizonatal and vertical
Dk is slow.
@my level of play
I play at mid level.
@my experience
I don't have to win to understand my opponents characters limitations. I got outplayed by better players during a time where I was still learning the match up. If I were to go back and replay them my approach wouldn't even be the same lol.
@8frame grab
This is actually a huge deal. Snake and Dk both suffer from the issue of not being able to beat some1 in rps if both people pick the same option (grab). This is especially bad when it comes to Dk trying to fight snake, because if dk tries to grab me I'll hit him way before he's able too. My moveset is way too fast for his grab, and utilt outranges/outspeeds his grab range.(I'm sure) Snake doesn't suffer as much vs dk because dk's moves aren't as fast or reliable to go too. Snake can also make an approach with grenades, meaning if a mistake is made or I guessed wrong I'm covered(by how much depends on my port)
@my characters weaknesses
I don't ignore them. My weaknesses are well known to everyone. What I'm looking at is whether or not you can put me in a position where you can exploit my weaknesses. (dk has a bit of trouble with this)
@dying under 100
I'm not really scared of dying from under 100% unless I got hit out of cypher... then I can die lol. Dk has to trap snake to kill him(or yolo punch) and more times than not I'm well over 100% before that happens.
@punch
Just do it. Yolo
@winning at neutral
Winning at neutral is extremely important. It's what defines match ups. Whether or not someone can beat someone depends on whether or not they can get the positioning or initial hit. Dk loses at neutral. It matters that dk can **** on snake if given the chance, but he shouldn't be given enough chances to get his stuff started because of how hard he loses at neutral.
@cargo
Good for positioning. Cargo spike doesn't work. If he gets a read after throwing my offstage I can die but that's RPS. Also for him to have gotten my in that position would have required him to have grabbed me near the ledge. It's a strong tool. Snake has more reliable tools to work with though.
@landing lag
Land with grenade you have none~
Edit: Quote from Will
" I can't do anything!"
@ speed of our movesets
Honestly none of DK's smashes against snake are scary except for Dsmash. The speed of the other smashes are alright but they don't really help dk at neutral. They do help during bad spots for snake. Dk for example can fsmash snakes shield and make him drop onto the ledge. That's pretty cool. Otherwise it doesn't really... do anything.
@dk not getting juggled
Dude I don't know why you think dk doesn't get juggled but he does and hard. You'll say snake gets juggled but dk is a friggin huge character who can't throw out any move to land or escape any types of pressure. He has charged punch, which still lose to people who put him in juggle. Snake can get juggled, but he can at least go high and stop the juggle momentarily. Dk just... gets hit over and over and over. Snake can frame trap DK with uair, nair, grenades, dash attack usmash. On stages like battlefield any hit leads to dk landing on a platform and getting him c4 stickied. Dk doesn't have any tools to land.
@Punch and hand slap
Punch doesn't have to be challenged with an attack. I can still block it with a grenade or block it -> punish. How much shield I have determines how I will go about attacking a landing Dk with punch. It does its job of making me not want to press buttons, but its not a "oh dk has this now I can't stop him from landing"
@air speed horizonatal and vertical
Dk is slow.
@my level of play
I play at mid level.
@my experience
I don't have to win to understand my opponents characters limitations. I got outplayed by better players during a time where I was still learning the match up. If I were to go back and replay them my approach wouldn't even be the same lol.
@8frame grab
This is actually a huge deal. Snake and Dk both suffer from the issue of not being able to beat some1 in rps if both people pick the same option (grab). This is especially bad when it comes to Dk trying to fight snake, because if dk tries to grab me I'll hit him way before he's able too. My moveset is way too fast for his grab, and utilt outranges/outspeeds his grab range.(I'm sure) Snake doesn't suffer as much vs dk because dk's moves aren't as fast or reliable to go too. Snake can also make an approach with grenades, meaning if a mistake is made or I guessed wrong I'm covered(by how much depends on my port)
@my characters weaknesses
I don't ignore them. My weaknesses are well known to everyone. What I'm looking at is whether or not you can put me in a position where you can exploit my weaknesses. (dk has a bit of trouble with this)
@dying under 100
I'm not really scared of dying from under 100% unless I got hit out of cypher... then I can die lol. Dk has to trap snake to kill him(or yolo punch) and more times than not I'm well over 100% before that happens.
@punch
Just do it. Yolo
@winning at neutral
Winning at neutral is extremely important. It's what defines match ups. Whether or not someone can beat someone depends on whether or not they can get the positioning or initial hit. Dk loses at neutral. It matters that dk can **** on snake if given the chance, but he shouldn't be given enough chances to get his stuff started because of how hard he loses at neutral.
@cargo
Good for positioning. Cargo spike doesn't work. If he gets a read after throwing my offstage I can die but that's RPS. Also for him to have gotten my in that position would have required him to have grabbed me near the ledge. It's a strong tool. Snake has more reliable tools to work with though.
@landing lag
Land with grenade you have none~
Edit: Quote from Will
" I can't do anything!"
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Woops. Quoted my own post Kappa
Dcold
Smash Lord
Confirmed quote from Will.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
What does "hard to juggle" mean to YOU? In fact, what does the term "juggle" mean to you? Also, in that sense, are you referring to low %, frame trap-ish juggles or high %, 'just keep them off the ground/punish landings' juggles? I think most of us have been referring to the latter. Heavy/large/faster falling characters kinda universally get screwed by the former. By that definition, almost half the cast is somewhat 'easy to juggle'. Perhaps you mean 'harder to juggle than it is to juggle Sonic', but that's most of the cast anyway... <__<
2011 is fine, tbh. Gheb's video was from 2010.That much is very fair. But you can't do that without posting an ancient video?
Idk, it's not like we have good recent videos for every MU (or ever will) but whenever something is brought up from 2011 it's often not productive for a conversation about the current metagame.
Vinnie still used G&W for singles in 2011. That's not fine at all lol
Peachy-Desu
Smash Journeyman
Is Jiggly under Ganon yet?
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
Can we talk about how Sonic should be low tier again?
SoulPech
Smash Master
She never will be.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Yo I always wondered. Are jigglypuffs moves safe on hit at 0%?
SoulPech
Smash Master
Yes.
actually what do you mean? :/
actually what do you mean? :/
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Like vs snake at least
Kirby will bair me at 0% and get utilted for it. Same thing happen to jiggly puff when she does like bair or fair on hit at that %?
Kirby will bair me at 0% and get utilted for it. Same thing happen to jiggly puff when she does like bair or fair on hit at that %?
smashkng
Smash Lord
@ winning at neutral. So Falco, Olimar, Diddy and Snake beat MK? You make it sound like that.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Those guys beat mk at neutral? Didn't know.
SoulPech
Smash Master
the only move that would be safe is her pound...maybe Fair if spaced properly. afaik, if we land bair, we'll get hit unless we hit the ground in time to throw up a shield.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Depends on what way you define "neutral" Dekill. Because if you mean neutral neutral, I'm pretty sure they beat MK unless the MK has a %/stock lead.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
It doesn't sound fun to play your character soulpech...
@smashkng
I suppose. I never see Mk losing at neutral though. Considering he has all the tools to get past anyone's neutral game and start his offense. Nado's one of them. Mk's have stopped abusing this move as of late
@smashkng
I suppose. I never see Mk losing at neutral though. Considering he has all the tools to get past anyone's neutral game and start his offense. Nado's one of them. Mk's have stopped abusing this move as of late
SoulPech
Smash Master
I forever use her...despite being good or bad.
I have a secondary to help me with her seriously bad MUs like snake xD
I have a secondary to help me with her seriously bad MUs like snake xD
I was doing a random MM once and I got Puff and my opponent got Snake. He's actually a Snake player so I got wrecked.
God Damn I hate that MU
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Utilt to anti-air and build damage
Then kill with utilt
+4 GGs
Then kill with utilt
+4 GGs
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Maybe they stopped abusing it because it actually gets punished now. I mean, DDD is ***** by the move but even he can utilt through it or just grab it if he spaces perfectly. Now MK eats 15+% damage or dies. He could have just gone with any of his other completely safe moves...and this is against a character who loses to tornado. I'm certain most other chars can punish abused 'nados if they space/position well. Sometimes that means running and NOT shielding the move.
I actually think Falco does indeed have the neutral advantage against MK as long as he isn't losing. Lasers beat 'nado and they can actually give MK a major headache. Probably Diddy as well. Those chars really shape how MK has to move, all while keeping a pretty firm position themselves.
/5cents
I actually think Falco does indeed have the neutral advantage against MK as long as he isn't losing. Lasers beat 'nado and they can actually give MK a major headache. Probably Diddy as well. Those chars really shape how MK has to move, all while keeping a pretty firm position themselves.
/5cents
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
But its like. You block nado then punish... get 15%
then mk proceeds to doing nado again, poking your shield, then comboing you. Moves amazing lmao
Falco is pretty good at neutral vs MK. Hard to keep it up when Mk has nado, jump dairs, ftilt etc.
then mk proceeds to doing nado again, poking your shield, then comboing you. Moves amazing lmao
Falco is pretty good at neutral vs MK. Hard to keep it up when Mk has nado, jump dairs, ftilt etc.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That 15% comment was about DDD, because his most damaging throw is bthrow (15+ is a safe estimate, but I'm pretty sure that move does over 17%). He could also go for the dthrow TC, which could net a kill possibly. :3
Other chars got better stuff. For instance, Falco has DACUS, etc.
I mean, yes, 'nado is godly, but I can see why good MKs stopped spamming the move.....but they should definitely be spamming the move more against DDD, 'cause Mach:DDD is a 7:3 MU.
Other chars got better stuff. For instance, Falco has DACUS, etc.
I mean, yes, 'nado is godly, but I can see why good MKs stopped spamming the move.....but they should definitely be spamming the move more against DDD, 'cause Mach:DDD is a 7:3 MU.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
It does between 16 and 17 when fresh.
Quit telling them, you mongoloid.but they should definitely be spamming the move more against DDD, 'cause Mach:DDD is a 7:3 MU.
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