Official BBR Tier List v7

[Jabejazz]

It can also be used as a derogatory term.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

WHICH IS WHY YOU SHOULDN'T BE USlNG IT!

 

[Jabejazz]

WHICH IS WHY YOU SHOULDN'T BE USlNG IT!

....

 

[SoulPech]

uh oh. I see the F word >.>

 

[Tesh]

Snake... up tilt...
Falco... Up Smash/Fsmash/Bair/etc
Peach... usmash
DK... dsmash / dk punch (IIRC)
Fox... usmash
Falcon... knee....

Snake can also chaingrab squirtle to the ledge then just dthrow.

 

[bubbaking]

@winning at neutral
Winning at neutral is extremely important. It's what defines match ups. Whether or not someone can beat someone depends on whether or not they can get the positioning or initial hit. Dk loses at neutral. It matters that dk can **** on snake if given the chance, but he shouldn't be given enough chances to get his stuff started because of how hard he loses at neutral.

This was a well-made post. I don't agree that this makes the MU 65:35, like you say, but the post itself is well-formulated. The only part I think was bad is the quoted portion above. Winning at neutral IS extremely important (never said it wasn't) but if it was all, or even most, of what mattered in a MU value, then almost every character with projectiles would beat almost every character without projectiles, including MK. For instance, DDD:TL is even according to the DDDs and +1 DDD according to the TLs (even MJG strongly thinks this). However, there's really no doubt who has the advantage at NEUTRAL. Another example is DDD:Snake. Even I concede that Snake heavily wins the long-range neutral game. At mid-range, I think DDD wins. We get our 'MU-evening' advantages from the stupid punishments we can get from that 'mid-range advantage' and our very advantageous edgeguarding game. I wouldn't be surprised if Snake beat every non-Falco or Olimar char in the game at neutral, but that doesn't make him win MUs and perhaps this is why you think Snake is so much better than the rest of us think he is.

 

[Delta-cod]

In most cases, winning neutral is what decides who is favored to win the match. Having projectiles doesn't necessarily mean you win at neutral, it just means you win long range and maybe mid range, depending on what projectile you have.

While heavy punishment definitely helps even out a disadvantage at neutral or furthers an advantage at neutral, if you can't reliably get those punishes in, they can't hold much weight over the match up.

Also, the severity with which a character wins at neutral matters too. Merely forcing an approach doesn't mean you've won neutral. I'd say mid range is the most important area.

 

[SoulPech]

gj shaya xD

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I wonder what Dekillsage thinks of Diddy vs. Snake. Pretty sure he thinks that's also 65-35

 

[da K.I.D.]

What does "hard to juggle" mean to YOU? In fact, what does the term "juggle" mean to you? Also, in that sense, are you referring to low %, frame trap-ish juggles or high %, 'just keep them off the ground/punish landings' juggles? I think most of us have been referring to the latter. Heavy/large/faster falling characters kinda universally get screwed by the former. By that definition, almost half the cast is somewhat 'easy to juggle'. Perhaps you mean 'harder to juggle than it is to juggle Sonic', but that's most of the cast anyway... <__<

thats the point. sonic is hard to juggle in comparison to the rest of the cast. When you try to say that DDD is hard to juggle, who are you comparing him to? Cause its clearly not the rest of the cast, a cast that includes wario, mk, sonic, diddy and pit. those are hard characters to juggle. so saying that snake, ddd or dk are on that level is a blatent attempt to distort reality.

Also, falco, diddy and olimar all imo beat MK at neutral. Mks abilities just give him astronomically high rewards for getting in on anybody while making it way easier than it should be for him, even if he is in a disadvantaged position.

 

[Luco]

I seem to recall seeing something once that talked about how Falco, fox and diddy were contenders for a 0 with MK because they beat him at neutral very well. It then went on to say that they weren't 0 MUs because MK really hurts these chars off-stage... and it's so true. I'm a rather low level player but if I use falco and try to recover nowadays against my bro's MK I get punished everytime for upB and sometimes I just can't phantasm. :/

Anyway, I get called out for being a mongoloid sometimes but because it's somewhat close to my real name, that's why it's used more often than it might. Haha, it's a pretty mild insult if you ask me.

@Dekillsage: Many LT and MT chars are fun to use despite being frustrating. I know that sounds weird but it works! For instance, I sometimes enjoy using jigglypuff for the fun of the air but maaan it's hard when someone seriously outranges you like... Marth or MK or Snake or whatevs.

Lucas is a good example too: Snake is my favourite MU (or at the very least one of them: I love playing with nades as much as the snake! :3) but I get wrecked by GR to utilt (actually i've found there is a GR type where I don't get hit by Utilt... I seem to be able to make him slide really far in rare situations and for some reason he just isn't hit... it's weird, might need more testing). Anyway, like, I love the MU so much despite usually getting destroyed... it's just hard to explain, i'm sure you have some other char you use as a fun char that you like despite whatever flaws they have?

...

Don't say MK.

 

[Jabejazz]

Anyway, I get called out for being a mongoloid sometimes but because it's somewhat close to my real name, that's why it's used more often than it might. Haha, it's a pretty mild insult if you ask me.

I just think it sounds funny as a word. I could've used dingus for the same "personal" effect.

I seem to be able to make him slide really far in rare situations and for some reason he just isn't hit... it's weird, might need more testing).

A normal ground release pushes you back farther than a pummel release. While the grab release is already bad for space kids, the horrible things I can do to a pummel released one are...well, horrible.

it's just hard to explain, i'm sure you have some other char you use as a fun char that you like despite whatever flaws they have?
...
Don't say MK.

Ok I won't say it.

 

[Kewkky]

So the Community Tier List votes have been tallied (or at least, the 80 votes that actually follow the rules), and the end result actually doesn't look bad at all. What do you guys think about it?

Spoiler

1. MK = 1.0125
2. IC = 2.6500
3. Olimar = 3.3000
4. Diddy = 4.6375
5. Snake = 5.5000
6. Falco = 6.0250
7. Marth = 6.2250
8. Pikachu = 8.2375
9. ZSS = 8.4000
10. Wario = 9.3000
11. Lucario = 11.1875
12. DDD = 12.3625
13. TL = 13.6125
14. Wolf = 15.0250
15. G&W = 15.1375
16. Fox = 15.3750
17. Pit = 17.0625
18. ROB = 18.1250
19. Peach = 18.2250
20. Kirby = 20.2875
21. DK = 22.4375
22. Ike = 22.5375
23. Sonic = 23.3500
24. Sheik = 23.3625
25. Ness = 24.1250
26. Yoshi = 26.1875
27. Luigi = 26.8500
28. Lucas = 27.1750
29. PT = 27.8250
30. Mario = 30.7375
31. Samus = 30.9125
32. Bowser = 32.3500
33. Captain Falcon = 33.2250
34. Link = 33.7000
35. Jigglypuff = 35.0875
36. Zelda = 35.2875
37. Ganondorf = 36.2500

 

[RaptorTEC]

Can Sonic just be below Ganon already? This community tier list is fraudulent.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm actually surprised that it doesn't have many changes.

 

[SoulPech]

I feel jiggs is low IMO, but oh well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

does that .0125 next to the 1 for metaknight mean that somebody didnt vote him as the best character in the game? because MK as number 1 should easily be unanimous at this point.

 

[sGale]

does that .0125 next to the 1 for metaknight mean that somebody didnt vote him as the best character in the game? because MK as number 1 should easily be unanimous at this point.

ZeRo put him as second.

 

[B0NK]

Zero wasn't even allowed to vote on the community one.

Zero's meatriders voted ICs as first. (Since people know he's a top player, his opinion on every character must matter more!).

ICs are too high on BBR members and the community tier list.

 

[Delta-cod]

But the ICs are so broken guys! They just grab you and you die!

 

[-LzR-]

ICs as #1 sounds so ridiculous I can't believe a good player seriously believes that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i love zero, but this whole ics da bess kick hes been on is stupid. all the reasons hes given for that have been stuff that isnt in touch with reality.

 

[-LzR-]

I still have to admit that if another character had to be #1 ICs would be pretty much the only choice. Still, MK is way ahead.

 

[Tikao]

maybe, in the metagame of 2025 or later, IC could become better than mk, but in the metagame (hehe metagame metaknight, this never get's old) of today, mk should realy be the Nr.1

look at how the metagame developed so far in 5 years, look at the first tier-list
maybe someone finds a megahyperoverpoweredbutnotbanned-AT, of a low-tier or mid-tier, and he'll be top-tier, maybe nr.1, and then we have bowser ban discussions

but for today ... mk dabess

 

[zmx]

I seem to recall seeing something once that talked about how Falco, fox and diddy were contenders for a 0 with MK because they beat him at neutral very well. It then went on to say that they weren't 0 MUs because MK really hurts these chars off-stage... and it's so true. I'm a rather low level player but if I use falco and try to recover nowadays against my bro's MK I get punished everytime for upB and sometimes I just can't phantasm. :/

Of course you are getting punished. You are trying to recover by relying on Up B as Falco. MK is not the only character that punishes Falco hard for attempting that.
Almost always, Falco should be relying on his second jump and/or side B to recover, with mixing it up by either auto snapping the ledge or going back on stage/platforms.

You say sometimes you just can't do this, this is probably an issue with your DI. With good DI Falco should never be constantly in a situation where he has to rely on Up B to recover which is just asking to get gimped.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The only reason ICs are far (VERY far) from #1 is the stagelist.
If we played 3 stages set on random, ICs would be much closer to First, if not actually first.

 

[Kewkky]

If you've got questions about who voted what, check the Community Tier List thread and search out the person who voted ICs as #1, then ask them directly. It really is that simple. :\

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its not important WHO voted for mk not to be number one, whats important is that somebody actually DID, and it was a terrible idea on their part.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Wow, it's a good thing i didn't vote with my tier list that has MK at #9

 

[Osennecho]

This is actually a pretty legit outcome. Nothing here I'd really argue against/not accept.

 

[BlueXenon]

I am unhappy with the community tier list because it looks too similar to Tier List v7. I was hoping Peach would be in the bottom of mid tier and Ness would be in the top of mid tier.

 

[Kewkky]

While it does look similar to V7, it's entirely made up of the votes in the Community Tier List thread, and has no other influence in it at all. The numbers in the right (as someone already guessed) are the total valid votes tallied (added together), divided by the number of people who voted to find the average. So pretty much between all who voted, you could say that the community's view on the tier list/metagame is more or less the same as the BBR's tier list (or the previous one at least, the new one's literally around the corner).

 

[B0NK]

So pretty much between all who voted, you could say that the community's view on the tier list/metagame is more or less the same as the BBR's tier list (or the previous one at least, the new one's literally around the corner).

And that makes me

 

[BSP]

I am unhappy with the community tier list because it looks too similar to Tier List v7. I was hoping Peach would be in the bottom of mid tier and Ness would be in the top of mid tier.

I think you're right. I should've voted Ness higher.

I'm curious as to why people think Luigi is still better than Lucas at this point.

 

[Ishiey]

Idk, they're both pretty bad and lose to the same general tactics imo. Lucas does have better rep though.

 

[Luco]

Idk, they're both pretty bad and lose to the same general tactics imo. Lucas does have better rep though.

Anyway, guys get over the fact that someone voted ICs at first. It's not actually that insane haha. I personally feel ICs are good at second (as it happens this would correspond with Japan's placing of them) at our current level of play but like if we got down to the 3 stage stagelist (which is probably gonna happen eventually from experience), then who knows?

@zmx: Dude, that's literally like saying 'Ness' recovery shouldn't hinder him because he can always just recover high'. Like, yes, it's usually possible and at top levels of play it's going to happen more often than not... but in Ness' case it's a primary reason why he will never go even with MK and a large reason that he's in LM. At the end of the day, Falco's MU with MK isn't a 0 because even at top levels, Falco can eat a lot of damage/get gimped offstage. The M2K vs. DEHF match at this year's Apex is a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn4Xk9dKFaA

See, DEHF is a really good player and he didn't want to be offstage in many instances. He's totally a top player and avoided it as much as he can but even he had some instances where he had to use upB or got punished for using phantasm. Note how M2K on the first stock on the first match uses DEHF offstage to get damage on him: Remember that after the (is it 13?) frames of invincibility Falco has on Phantasm, Tornado will reliably beat it out. Notice how quite a few times DEHF had to use upB and a bunch of those times he got punished. Even phantasm, notice how often he gets punished or sent back and in fact died for it at the end of the second match by a good read from M2K.

I'm not saying i'm not a bad player, i'm just saying that even I can see why falco would get hurt offstage by MK. UpB is easy to punish and phantasm is okay but like... it doesn't really make this MU a 0 IMO. *shrug*

Just sayin'.

 

[bubbaking]

thats the point. sonic is hard to juggle in comparison to the rest of the cast. When you try to say that DDD is hard to juggle, who are you comparing him to? Cause its clearly not the rest of the cast, a cast that includes wario, mk, sonic, diddy and pit. those are hard characters to juggle. so saying that snake, ddd or dk are on that level is a blatent attempt to distort reality.

That's the thing, though. I wasn't comparing DDD to the rest of the cast. If anything, I was actually comparing him to his fellow heavyweights, of which DDD is probably one of the hardest to actually juggle. In all honesty, though, I wasn't comparing him to anyone. He's just somewhat difficult to actually juggle reliably if the DDD uses all his tools and mix-ups. There's easy and there's not easy. I don't really need to compare DDD to the rest of the cast to find out which of those applies to him alone.

 

[-LzR-]

Simply the fact Dedede has many jumps, a nice dair and a great bair with the fastest fastfall in the game make him much harder to juggle than other heavies.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's the thing, though. I wasn't comparing DDD to the rest of the cast. If anything, I was actually comparing him to his fellow heavyweights, of which DDD is probably one of the hardest to actually juggle. In all honesty, though, I wasn't comparing him to anyone. He's just somewhat difficult to actually juggle reliably if the DDD uses all his tools and mix-ups. There's easy and there's not easy. I don't really need to compare DDD to the rest of the cast to find out which of those applies to him alone.

the concepts of 'easy to juggle' and 'not easy to juggle' are INHERENTLY COMPARITIVE statements. You cant say DDD is hard to juggle without a basis to compare it with. Otherwise the statement has no bearing or merit in reality. That means I can just as easily say DDD is hilariously easy to juggle (because to me, he is) and if we dont have some kind of basis to start from, neither one of us can be proven correct or incorrect. Because I run the same mix ups on every ddd Ive ever played (which basically amounts to running under them repeatedly and forcing them to choose a side to defend themselves, and leaving the other side open) and its always worked.

Now, If you want to compare him specifically to all the other easy to keep in the air characters, then we can have a functioning conversation. And id be inclined to agree with you. Even though comparing which heavyweight character gets juggled the least is sort of like trying to figure out whos the smartest kid with Downs syndrome.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is stupidly easy to juggle. I haven't kept up with the thread, but who is honestly saying that? His only option to get back down while being juggled is to try to airdodge or dair (lol).

Note: I say this as someone who solely goes vs and has beaten almost every top at some point in time except for Atomsk (Due to never playing his with since he always goes other characters vs me unless I get cp'd when I'm or double blind R1).