Official BBR Tier List v7

[-LzR-]

You are exaggerating DKs landing weakness all the time yet you totally ignore Snakes problems doing that against DK.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake has breversals and c4 reversals.
Dk doesn't go anywhere. It's his biggest flaw. How am I exaggerating? What move other than charged punch does dk land with? How does he land safely? I'd love to know.

Snake can kill snake with like uair if he preemptively reads me but killing snake on his landing is just not as common or reliable.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

DK's down b eats up Snake's shield. Even if you are right and DK's B-air is bad in this MU, he can always mix it up with side b which also eats up shields. DK is also one of those characters who can kill Snake at low percents

 

[~ Gheb ~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4gDXCA96g

inb4"cableplaysitwrong"

 

[Dekillsage]

I'm very aware of that jebus. Side B will eat my shield, but in that positioning snake can and should always roll away. Dk only kills snake at low %'s with a read -> guaranteed spike. Otherwise I'll die at around 110%+(low for snake. Def not anything ridiculous tho)

Dk suffers more than d3 when it comes to playing @ neutral and getting things started. It's the reason why I think its 65-35. We can legit not let Dk play, we can't do that to ddd. I'm not denying dk's strengths but every character has strengths. What matters is if Dk can reliable get his stuff started.... but he can't. He has no way of doing so without making a read. And even if he makes the read proper grenade spacing will get snake out of grab situations(port make this even better for snake).

I don't know how to beat down b. I haven't bothered to learn how. I do know that it can't even be used to catch snakes landings though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know how to beat down b.

Just shield it, then roll away. DK's down B is only a threat to Snake if he spotdodges, which is pretty superfluous against DK in the first place.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Er.. B reversals suck, same as c4 landings, Snake doesn't move far at all, and Dk can space his moves to hit Snake and not the grenade.

For catching landings, Down B is pretty reliable, the range on it is massive, the forward range is just slightly longer than the blue pikmin grab.

For landing, Dk could air dodge, or aerial, or retreat to a platform with Up that's not FD.
He can even fast fall/ slow fall side b just above Snake's head if you're standing or even go lower if you're crouching, or he can retreat to the ledge.

As for Snake being faster than Dk in every way ? You REALLY underestimate Dk.

Sure, Snake can have grenades, but if you aren't cooking them every time, or trading with them every time, grenades aren't that scary when they do 2% chip damage when thrown.

I think you don't want to admit Snake goes even with a mid tier. :3

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Rolling away doesn't really work unless you are away from the edges of the stage

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rolling away doesn't really work unless you are away from the edges of the stage

Since Snake controls the stage ~75% of the time you it works virtually all the time.

 

[B0NK]

Er.. B reversals suck, same as c4 landings, Snake doesn't move far at all, and Dk can space his moves to hit Snake and not the grenade.

Don't say he doesn't move far when characters in the cast wished they had the mobility option to change their direction that quickly. And Snake can do it 3 different times if he has C4.

If DK can easily hit Snake, then he can easily hit any character that can't fly

Which I doubt DK does for free on characters like Fox, Falco, and Toon Link who have less b-reversals than Snake. From, what I know, the vast majority don't believe DK does well against these characters even if he can juggle these characters similar to Snake.

But I believe the main point is DK can truly get anything started on Snake without a hard read. If you look at Snake's other even-ish match-ups like D3 and Marth, they have means to get things started on Snake, and more effective ways to attempt to keep Snake in a bad position for an extended period of time.

DK has less landing options then both this characters that are even-ish against Snake, and also have more means to poke at Snake without blowing up grenades (Marth) or have a grab that immediately puts Snake in a horrible position (D3). DK has neither as his main spacing tools with the exception of down-b can't poke at Snake without getting himself hit by a grenade, and he can't easily use his grab to get away from grenades and put snake in an immediate bad position. (Stage position dependent, while D3's does not care as much about where he lands his grabs).

If these even-ish match ups have better tools than DK, and also can get things started better than DK, then I don't see how DK is even with Snake. If you believe that D3 and Marth are even-ish AND do significantly better against Snake than DK, then I believe you cannot deny that DK is at a disadvantage against Snake. (Which simply means I'm stating the match up is 40:60 or worst for DK, whether it's worst or not is up for debate though, and this post is not within the scope to provide evidence for worst than 40:60).

If you don't believe D3 and Marth are even-ish against Snake, or that DK does worst than these two characters, then I can see why you'd believe it's even for DK.

This big post is essentially saying that without a uniform scale to compare match ups to each other, it's tough to put a number on a match up, until we can agree on a scale as to what is an even match up or not. If we take this approach we can compare how characters do against one character in comparison to how others do against that character.

One more example, if one was to believe Kirby does bad against Snake, but better than DK, then DK would have to have a worst match up against Snake than Kirby. (Let's say Snake vs Kirby is 60:40, then Snake vs DK would have to at least be 65:35).

So a question for everyone, is there even one match up vs Snake that a majority of people agree upon? That could possibly be a basis for comparison?

tl;dr people in this thread need to be consistent in their match up numbers, their consistency can be checked by comparing their opinions on other match ups.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure they said DK was faster than Snake in every way, Mr 1FlaocMastr

Sage, beat DK's downB by jumping after the 2nd hit (shield the first one). DK has a lot of ending lag on it, you can probably get a free uair/bair if he hasn't spaced it well.
If he has, you can probably dash attack/DACUS out of shield drop after the 2nd hit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So a question for everyone, is there even one match up vs Snake that a majority of people agree upon? That could possibly be a basis for comparison?

Pretty sure most people will agree that Snake vs Peach is floating somewhere between +2 and +3 Snake favor.

 

[Dekillsage]

Look @ the frame data and see that every single one of my moves except how long it takes to jump and uair are faster.... you guys are drunk saying dk is faster.

Thanks v115. I never consider jumping because of how long it takes.

Rolling works if you roll where he can't bair. This is only when he's in position to side B your shield. Also what gheb said.

Snakes b reversals don't make him move far at all? You're drunk. I can shift freaking directions lol You guys are missing the point that dash attack
covers dks landing NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES (cept punch). Idc if he airdodges, you know how far dash attack goes? That move is the xXDkKillahXx

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Silence, happy feet.

 

[-LzR-]

The speed of your moveset isn't as important as the speed of your character.

 

[Dekillsage]

The speed of your moveset is the speed of your character.... I have dacus btw.
Can dk move as fast as dacus?

 

[RaptorTEC]

The speed of your moveset isn't as important as the speed of your character.

Exhibit A of why I'm done here.

 

[B0NK]

The speed of your moveset isn't as important as the speed of your character.

It is just as, if not more important, than the speed of a character. Many characters have faster mobility than MK, but MK is still the best character in the game. This is because MK's moves are faster than a majority of the cast in almost all situations. MK also is the best due to his recovery, how his fast aerials allow him to DI, and his spacing.

Which reminds me, how well does DK recover against Snake? I would assume he has trouble with ledge drop bair from Snake when DK is recovering low, and would also have trouble getting off the ledge against Snake, once he has the ledge. DK should take more damage recovering against Snake. Vice versa, Snake should not take nearly as much damage. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

@Gheb: Okay cool, I'll keep that in mind when I get out of class and post again lol.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake can bair dk depending on the spacing.
I feel that it's a much bigger deal when dk is trying to get back on stage vs snake. This excludes smashville where he can wait for the platform.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The speed of your moveset isn't as important as the speed of your character.

Literally the dumbest post anybody has ever made on these boards.

 

[BSP]

I don't know what context LzR was in when he said that, but I can see where he's coming from if you look a a character like Luigi. Most people would agree that his moveset is good, and it's certainly not slow, but he just can't reliably hit you with it because his movement is so poor.

I think moveset speed and movement speed are equal in importance. If you want to see the extremes in action, look at Sonic and Luigi. Sonic's slow where it counts (KO moves), but he's so fast that he can make it work. Overall, Luigi's moves are quick, but can't touch you half of the time, so it doesn't matter. Both of them are mid tier now. You need both, but I could see valuing overall speed more than moveset speed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think that it's Luigi's lack of mobility that makes it hard for him to hit opponents but his poor range and the fact that just hitting his shield alone pushes him back to where he came from. Huge reason why Ganon goes even with him imho.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't think that it's Luigi's lack of mobility that makes it hard for him to hit opponents but his poor range and the fact that just hitting his shield alone pushes him back to where he came from. Huge reason why Ganon goes even with him imho.

Mobility is range.

Wherever you can move, you can put a hitbox.

 

[infiniteV115]

Mobility supports range, yes, but to say that mobility and range are the same thing is silly.
Ike has tons of range but is not very mobile. Sonic is extremely mobile but most of his moveset is of mediocre range or worse.

Why am I explaining this

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mobility is range.

Wherever you can move, you can put a hitbox.

That's why Wario deals with Marth's and MK's swords so amazingly well, right? Range and mobility are not interchangeable.

 

[Dekillsage]

Wish I had nado so I wouldn't have to worry about any of these things

 

[-DR3W-]

Pretty sure most people will agree that Snake vs Peach is floating somewhere between +2 and +3 Snake favor.

I see what you did there

 

[smashkng]

Doesn't DK's Cargo Dthrow put Snake in a pretty bad position offstage? And I also don't see why DK's Uair wouldn't be a great juggle tool against Snake even if he has B reversals. B reversals don't really work when you're cornered and even if he's not it's still punishable most of the time if read. It doesn't really go that far and his options after b reversals aren't that many.

 

[B0NK]

DK's cargo throw last too long to stop Snake from immediately DJ cyphering. DK has no psuedo follow ups off of grab like Marth or D3 does. (Other even-ish match ups).

DK has to read Snake's reversal to punish it effectively. DK would punish it with more ease if he had a faster Fair, or a longer range Nair, like Marth. (Without it, Snake can fall past the front of DK when jumps towards Snake.) Since he doesn't, DK has to read when Snake will change directions (and he can change directions instantly and drastically up to 3 times).

If DK wants to juggles Snake, it's not with Uair, but instead like everyone else in the game does by staying grounded and trying to catch his landing. This isn't unique to DK, and many characters that struggle against Snake can do this. Snake counter acts this because his landings are not preditable, as he can change directions up to 3 times and has very long lasting aerials, also falls extremely fast. I'd imagine a DK player would try to save Uair as a means to kill Snake while attempting to juggle or punish a poor cypher.

Vice versa, DK has no b-reverses which means where he will land is rather predictable, and easily punished with Snake's Dash Attack, unless DK has a charged punch. Even a charged punch can still be grabbed though, so it's best for DK to use it as a hard read or defensively. Snake's DACUS can even cover the air and ground next to him if he mistimes the dash attack (which he shouldn't be, but even if he does he's not at a complete disadvantage).

 

[-LzR-]

Wow what an uproar I caused. What I mean't is, with a great moveset, what are you going to do if you had ****ty mobility? MK doesn't care because all of his B moves give him that and his ground mobility is one of the best in the game, but look at characters like Luigi and Sonic and Wario. Mobility is what makes or breaks them. I admit I may have over exaggerated a lot with what I said, but that was exactly my point. Mobility does indeed increase your effective range. DK with his great mobility can stuff Bair in your face so much easier than for example if Luigi had such bair, he would still suffer because he couldn't easily get close enough to do **** with that long bair.

 

[B0NK]

Wow what an uproar I caused. What I mean't is, with a great moveset, what are you going to do if you had ****ty mobility?

They'll win.

Also when discussing Snake and DK, it's clear both have good mobility, Snake's mobility is on par, if not better, than DK's. And to top it off, Snake has a better moveset. This is nothing like discussing Luigi. Luigi's range also does not come close to DK and Snake's. Mobility is not Luigi's problem, stop using him as an example.

 

[-LzR-]

Sure, his biggest problem is probably traction, I guess Wario and Sonic are good examples though, they would both be pretty much worthless crap without their mobility.

 

[pidgezero_one]

someone's trying so hard to derail a thread.

dude i havent posted in here in like a week i just thought you guys would enjoy it

 

[B0NK]

Sure, his biggest problem is probably traction, I guess Wario and Sonic are good examples though, they would both be pretty much worthless crap without their mobility.

They are still "worthless crap," with their mobility. They win by waiting since they can't approach against a lot of the cast that's. (Sonic does this less effectively because his moveset, survivability, and ko power is worst than Wario's, not because Wario has "better" mobility).

Thankfully their moveset allows them to poke somewhat safely on an opponent's shield.

 

[-LzR-]

And that's exactly what I mean't. Wario is good because of being so good at poking stuff and weaving all around everywhere. Sonic is crap but not absolute crap because of this too.

 

[B0NK]

You still make it sound like it's his mobility that defines whether Wario is good or not. I'm saying it is one of the least important aspects, even to his character. If his moves weren't safe on a majority of the cast's shield, or his moves were even slower, or if he couldn't recover ever, or if he couldn't kill, he'd be a bad character whether he had mobility or not. If you nerfed his mobility, he would not nearly be has hurt as he would be if you nerfed anything I mentioned prior about him.

As people have posted before, mobility assist a character, it is not even close to the most important factor that defines the character's viability.

 

[Iota]

Wario's mobility is why he's viable. His approaches would all be incredibly unsafe since his aerials and ground moves are laggy as all hell. Making his moves more laggy, ruining his recovery, etc. are not worse than removing his mobility.

 

[Luco]

I get the feeling this is kinda individual to some characters, depending on current speed - move speed ratios, priority and strength.

Dunno... :/

 

[B0NK]

Wario's mobility is why he's viable. His approaches would all be incredibly unsafe since his aerials and ground moves are laggy as all hell. Making his moves more laggy, ruining his recovery, etc. are not worse than removing his mobility.

There are characters that are much less viable than Wario that have similar mobility and even safer aerials and ground moves.

Wario's mobility is not the main reason why he's viable, else Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Yoshi would be just as viable as Wario.

 

[Xyro77]

warios mobility, combined with his ability to dish damage, ko easi-sh, great recovery and weight make him as good as he is. wolf yoshi and jiggs do not have those attrbutes.