Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luco]

Ok, I have something i'd like to ask.

I recall watching Shaky vs. Abadango (I think it was). In the beginning the commentators said that there would be GR situations on both chars but when my brother and I tested with Ness/Lucas grabbing wario, we never got an aerial release. Not once. I've noticed on some grabs you'll get a ground release if they're not pummeling you and you mash the stick downwards. I dunno how many people this works for. In any case, does Wario have disadvantages on his ground release too? Just curious, because from my brother and I testing, Ness/Lucas can't get anything from a wario GR unless we get something from the ground release (do we?). :/

 

[Tesh]

He isn't at a major frame advantage on a ground release, but his close range game is really slow. If you have good pummel damage like Sonic/Ness/Lucas (i think ness is good right?) its a decent option to ground release him. All his ground moves come out 5+ frames and are laggy. His jump is slow and his rolls suck.

Possible the commentators were actually referring to Ness having a slidy dash grab that can get Wario to the ledge for free spike attempts and whatnot. Even more likely is that they were just ignorant players that didn't make it out of pools and had nothing left to do but spew nonsense on stream.

 

[Luco]

He isn't at a major frame advantage on a ground release, but his close range game is really slow. If you have good pummel damage like Sonic/Ness/Lucas (i think ness is good right?) its a decent option to ground release him. All his ground moves come out 5+ frames and are laggy. His jump is slow and his rolls suck.

Possible the commentators were actually referring to Ness having a slidy dash grab that can get Wario to the ledge for free spike attempts and whatnot. Even more likely is that they were just ignorant players that didn't make it out of pools and had nothing left to do but spew nonsense on stream.

Just chwecked, it was Coontail that said it. Not sure what he was referring to though. :/

And yea, Wario may have bad options out of the ground release but it's not guaranteed, is it? Is there any way to make that work?

 

[bubbaking]

also snake vs ddd this is my fav set ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROFhuqvi9bg

... its a tough mu

Already linked that, buddy. Apparently though, you're pretty bad at the MU (not my own words).

 

[Tesh]

Just chwecked, it was Coontail that said it. Not sure what he was referring to though. :/

And yea, Wario may have bad options out of the ground release but it's not guaranteed, is it? Is there any way to make that work?

Its not just about guarantees. There are characters that are just plain bad at close range. Sonic, Wario, GnW, even Olimar are notably bad when you are that close to them because all of their good options are slow and/or their fast options just suck like jabs that are safe on hit, laggy tilts etc.

This is one of the things that Charizard is good at. His grab range is so big for a frame 6 grab and he actually releases many characters so far away that they can't reach him with their own grabs or jabs. While he doesn't actually have a chaingrab on these people, he can often just keep grabbing them at little risk because all they can do is try to escape. Its just the fact that ground releasing people in certain matchups put you in a favorably position to keep the pressure on. You opponent's best bet is to escape and reset.

 

[Luco]

Its not just about guarantees. There are characters that are just plain bad at close range. Sonic, Wario, GnW, even Olimar are notably bad when you are that close to them because all of their good options are slow and/or their fast options just suck like jabs that are safe on hit, laggy tilts etc.

This is one of the things that Charizard is good at. His grab range is so big for a frame 6 grab and he actually releases many characters so far away that they can't reach him with their own grabs or jabs. While he doesn't actually have a chaingrab on these people, he can often just keep grabbing them at little risk because all they can do is try to escape. Its just the fact that ground releasing people in certain matchups put you in a favorably position to keep the pressure on. You opponent's best bet is to escape and reset.

Yeah, this is true.

I just thought when people were talking about 'GR' situations, they were referring to guaranteed setups off of grabs.

Is getting ground releases by holding down a legit thing on certain characters?

 

[Tesh]

im not sure what you mean, ground releasing is forced by your opponent breaking out during the hitstun from a pummel. people can air release between pummels if its slow like ganon or bowser, but not against like...wolf or sonic

 

[-LzR-]

Ok so assuming TAS level, could you consistently force Ness to airrelease against Marth if you timed your mashing perfectly?

 

[Tesh]

i dont know the frame data on pummel hitstun, i was told pummels cant be buffered though marth's definitely looks like a "middle of the road" kind of pummel. it certainly doesnt look like it has 100% hitstun coverage

edit: nvm i jsut checked and his pummel looks fast enough

 

[Luco]

im not sure what you mean, ground releasing is forced by your opponent breaking out during the hitstun from a pummel. people can air release between pummels if its slow like ganon or bowser, but not against like...wolf or sonic

People CAN air release if not pummeled but from my testing, you can also GR if you want with at least some characters. What I want to know is if it applies across most/many characters or not.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

From what I know, if you're touching the ground while being grabbed you will ALWAYS Ground release unless you press a jump button while mashing. If you are not touching the ground when grabbed, you will always air release unless being pummeled.

Though, this could just be a common (or not so common) misconception.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

What Shiny Mewtwo said is correct. Ness and Lucas can force air release Wario if they're standing over a ledge or downward slope (and thus do grab release stuff on him), which is probably what the commentators were referring to.

 

[Jabejazz]

Ground release : Releasing a grab normally.
Air release : Releasing a grab when the grabbed opponent is in his "feet-dangling" animation. This occurs when the opponent is over a ledge. Can also happen to small characters when a large target dash-grab them (notably Dedede on Psy kids, MK, Mario, and a couple more).
Pummel release : Releasing a grab as the opponent is being pummeled AND is in his "feet-dangling" animation. This particular release makes the opponent land closer than a Ground release and allows for a lot more options (sometimes a regrab).

 

[bubbaking]

What Shiny Mewtwo and Jabejazz both have said are correct, I believe. Generally, the way one has been grabbed dictates the release one will suffer. If the grabber is pummeling while the grabbed char is released during an air release situation, he will be pummel released (although I thought this applied to all release situations, not just air releases ). If the grabbed char inputs a jump while mashing out of a grab in a ground release situation, he can get an air release.

Iono, we've seen what a puffball can do to Snake with the right mindset.

Anyone remember Falln vs Havok? Running away with an aerial character is very good vs Snake, even if most of what your character has is trash.

Thing is though, a lot of what Kirby has ISN'T trash, like the guaranteed nonsensical combos he gets off of of a grab and such. Puff and Kirby may be super aerial-based "puffballs", but just as Melee Kirby couldn't really be compared to Melee Jiggs, I don't think Brawl Jiggs could really be compared to Brawl Kirby.

Also, don't forget that Kirby can counter-camp fairly well if he gets an Inhale. He's also a lot heavier and thus doesn't die as early from stray hits.

 

[Dekillsage]

lol havok vs falln

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Are you saying you could have done better than Havok did in his match against Falln?

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yes he would have.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Sure he could have

 

[SoulPech]

he definitely can.

 

[B0NK]

There's really no doubt that Dekillsage would do better.

Falln would not survive

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sage is a very good player with a lot of potential and hours of Kirby experience between MikeKirby and Dev3000. He'd do better.

 

[bubbaking]

So with a character like Snake in your hands, why would you ever want to go ROB? Like, what chars does ROB do better against than Snake does? Just curious as to your reasoning if it's anything other than "Well, I just like ROB."

Yo guys, posting smileys and char icons became SOOOOOO easy now! That drop-down menu right below the text box is just godly.

 

[B0NK]

There's a drop down menu?

 

[infiniteV115]

ROB probably does better against Pikachu, Olimar and DK.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

So with a character like Snake in your hands, why would you ever want to go ROB? Like, what chars does ROB do better against than Snake does? Just curious as to your reasoning if it's anything other than "Well, I just like ROB."

Yo guys, posting smileys and char icons became SOOOOOO easy now! That drop-down menu right below the text box is just godly.

according to mu chart 2 ROB does better against Marth

 

[bubbaking]

Dang, now that I think about it.......that menu's been there forever! This new SWF is so elusive! Everything's hidden and so hard to find. You have to let your mouse wander and click on things by accident to discover anything around here.

2/10 Would not **** again.

 

[Seagull Joe]

ROB probably does better against Pikachu, Olimar and DK.

Disagree about and . loses -2 to and is even with .

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Sage is a very good player with a lot of potential and hours of Kirby experience between MikeKirby and Dev3000. He'd do better.

None of those players are as good as Falln. Not only that but Falln lives in the same area as Havok. I'm pretty sure both players know that match up well

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't agree with either of those. I think ROB is -1 vs Oli and +1 against DK.
(Yes Snake has the same MU ratios but I think ROB does slightly better against both of them as I stated earlier)

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, a while ago, the top DKs all said that they go even with Snake and their arguments made sense. If ROB goes even with DK as well, that's not a MU advantage that ROB would have over Snake.

ROB probably does better against Pikachu, Olimar and DK.

I'm not so sure about Pika. Doesn't he get some weird, janky **** on ROB.....like every other character? I'm fairly certain that Pika still beats ROB.

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't say Pikachu doesn't beat ROB, I just said that ROB does better against Pikachu than Snake

 

[Dcold]

Are you guys dumb? No other Kirby is as good as Falln, he's from SoCal.

 

[DewDaDash]

what ur dumb, MikeKirby for best kirby :D

 

[infiniteV115]

Are you guys dumb? No other Kirby is as good as Falln, he's from SoCal.

Pretty sure everybody is at least as good as Falln

 

[Seagull Joe]

ChuDat is better then every by FAR LOOOL. Hold that L peepz.

None of those players are as good as Falln. Not only that but Falln lives in the same area as Havok. I'm pretty sure both players know that match up well

Falln lost to Tesh. Nuff said.

 

[bubbaking]

If Falln is good and everyone is as good as him, then I think what you said is kinda the point Dcold was making, V.

I believe Chu was also the highest-placing Kirby at Apex 2013. He actually placed pretty darn high.

 

[Seagull Joe]

And MikeKirby looks like Chu. Therefore, he is also the best .

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, and all blacks look alike.

 

[infiniteV115]

If Falln is good and everyone is as good as him, then I think what you said is kinda the point Dcold was making, V.

I believe Chu was also the highest-placing Kirby at Apex 2013. He actually placed pretty darn high.

Pretty sure everybody is at least as good as Falln

at least as good as Falln

at least

 

[Igetitpoppin01]

Its not just about guarantees. There are characters that are just plain bad at close range. Sonic, Wario, GnW, even Olimar are notably bad when you are that close to them because all of their good options are slow and/or their fast options just suck like jabs that are safe on hit, laggy tilts etc.

This is one of the things that Charizard is good at. His grab range is so big for a frame 6 grab and he actually releases many characters so far away that they can't reach him with their own grabs or jabs. While he doesn't actually have a chaingrab on these people, he can often just keep grabbing them at little risk because all they can do is try to escape. Its just the fact that ground releasing people in certain matchups put you in a favorably position to keep the pressure on. You opponent's best bet is to escape and reset.

Cancer.