Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

You can buffer in Melee.
Or at least, that's what Ultimascout told me when I housed him for IMPULSE, and I've also heard commentators (it was either dogy or Prog) mention buffering.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah you can buffer dodges. That is all you can do.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Melee is more technical than brawl, but there are some characters with comparable tech skill. That's all I was saying.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think any character in Brawl is even close to as technically demanding as any relevant char in Melee.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I definitely move my hands more when i play brawl than melee. But my mains might be a cause of that

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think any character in Brawl is even close to as technically demanding as any relevant char in Melee.

How many characters, aside from the spacies even have this "technical stuff" that's not the usual Lcanceling and wavedashing?

 

[bubbaking]

Also pikmin farming isn't "dry", it's something that isn't as heavily focused on by the top level olimars in the US, other than recently dabuz. Facing a line of 2-3 purples and the rest yellows is pretty much ball crunchingly gay, and it's not like Olimar's moveset is lagless, so effectively farming the ultimate pikmin chain without getting insta gimped (which happens enough anyway to underline the difficulty) isn't easy at all.

Well, I'm not going to say it's 'easy' but I really don't think it's as 'hard' as most other chars have it. Olimar can 'get rid' of pikmin by throwing them at you, so he still gets some benefit out of them, and his Pikmin Pull is essentially lagless since he can cancel it into any attack if you try to sneak up on him as if he were Peach pulling a turnip. Also, his moveset may not be "lagless", per se, but his smashes come really darn close.

ZSS, Yoshi, Lucas, Peach? Definitely Yoshi, at least.

These chars are not as technical as Melee chars, not on a regular basis. What are the most technically intensive things one has to do in Brawl? A DACUS here, a wavebounce there, some other things of course, but Melee incorporates somewhat heavily technical stuff all the time. Between wavedashes, wavelands, jump-cancelled grabs, boost grabs, SHFFL's, crouch cancelled hitstun, auto-crouch cancelled hitstun, crouch cancelled moves (different kind of crouch cancel), crouch cancelled runs (yet ANOTHER kind of crouch cancel), foxtrots, lightshields, dash dances, true pivots, and all the character-specific stuff, there really are no chars that are as technical as Melee:

• Brawl Yoshi isn't even NEARLY as technical as Melee Yoshi. What with DJCs, parries, lightshielding, tighter, more precise egg lay mechanics (especially on the ledge), and all the regular stuff that Brawl Yoshi has, like DJ SA, there really is no comparison.
• There is no way Lucas is as technical as Melee Ness. Melee Ness has DJCs as well as all the universal Melee stuff to worry about, plus when recovering, he has to be more precise with his PKT2 because of no auto-ledge snaps. Oh, and of course, there is the Super Yo-Yo Glitch. Now before you tell me that it isn't relevant in competitive play, watch THIS and THIS, because you're totally wrong.
• Peach? Come on, man! All Brawl Peach really has in this game are FCs and GTs (which both exist in Melee, btw). Melee Peach has all these things plus DJCs and universal Melee stuff. Again, the two really can't be compared.

Also yeah, playing Yoshi is like using him in Melee.

Wrong! See all the above.

And I really disagree with saying tech skill in Brawl is comparable to Melee. It isn't.

This man knows what's up!

Character tech skill is probably higher in Brawl. Universal tech skill is MUCH higher in Melee.

^^^This.....kind of. Tech skill overall is higher in Melee, both on a universal and a character-specific level, but I will agree that Brawl tends to have more character-specific techniques, even if they aren't technically demanding. For this reason, I feel that Brawl is harder to get into competitively for a new player than Melee is. For Melee, I could just tell one to learn how to SHFFL and the rest will come with time. There isn't really one specific major technique one should learn when picking up Brawl. Rather, he has to get accustomed to a bunch of major, important char-specific stuff.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Discussing over technicalities and non-relevant terms and statements.
Classy Brawl discussion community.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

What? Peach more than ever is more technical demanding due to her air attacks all cancelling on their hitbox mixed with her lagless landings. To effectively use Peach you would need to ground float cancel all your moves since her air game is *** in brawl.

So many people don't know about her many glitches with her float, an example would be if you dash and input a ground fair she retains her dash momentum while using fair and can easily cancel it into anything she wants due to havig 0 lag frames. Another would be her glitching her fall speed, you can jump - auto cancel her float which causes the game to put her in her fastest fall speed, but due to the game looking for a time check it causes her to fall faster than intended.

You can literally use all her air moves grounded while keeping huge momentum except dair, since bair has 1 frame of lag, uair has 1 frame of lag when cancelled on the hitbox. Dair is her worst grounded option since you can only land lagless after the hitbox.

There's also glide tossing and set ups with her turnips, which are nerfed in brawl so using them arguably takes more skill.

All this means nothing to MK though who will beat her without even trying... mash B win the mu lmao, and her overall lack of ko power. You shouldn't die before 160/180.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Discussing over technicalities and non-relevant terms and statements.
Classy Brawl discussion community.

I'd quote this in response to bubba... but a small shard of my Yoshi pride makes me want to say something and then have bubba never give up stating he's right despite knowing very little about Yoshi outside of D3 HAS INFINITE ON HIM. until I eventually do give in myself and he wins in the end cause he's too stubborn to shut up.

• Brawl Yoshi isn't even NEARLY as technical as Melee Yoshi. What with DJCs, parries, lightshielding, tighter, more precise egg lay mechanics (especially on the ledge), and all the regular stuff that Brawl Yoshi has, like DJ SA, there really is no comparison.

Wrong! See all the above.

Wrong? Not nearly as close? You're mostly wrong sorry to say.
Yoshi has double jump cancels too ya know... it's called DR along with regular DJC with Egg toss and egg lay. And that DR alone opens up many things for us on all the major things each and every stage has. Ledges, Platforms, and the main stage itself.
The input for DR isn't too kind to us either:

Spoiler

Basic DR
Jump Start-Up: 6
Second Jump Input: 3-5
Aerial Input: 4-6, right after the Second Jump command
Dragonic Reverse: 7
Landing Lag: 8-9

Ledge Jump Dragonic Reverse Waveland(No Buffering Possible)(<100%)
Perfect LedgeDRWaveland if fair used: 15 Jump, 16-17 Attack
Perfect LedgeDRWaveland with Dair: 14-15,Jump 15-17 after jump: Attack
LedgeDRWaveland with Aerial-Lag if fair used: 14 Jump 15 Attack
LedgeDRWaveland with Hitbox of Nair/Uair: 14 Jump 15 Attack

Melee's egg lay mechanics is not precise compared to the fact Yoshi can B-reverse and wavebounce it in brawl. There's a reason Yoshi's mobility in the air is really good...

When I mentioned Brawl and Melee Yoshi being similar, I mostly mean the fact the only glaring differences between the two is the DJC things we can no longer do with any move (parry). Now we can only cancel it with DR (wavedash for Yoshi in brawl) and our specials of course.

Unless you want to nitpick at every single difference from Melee Yoshi and Brawl Yoshi... Ones I can think of from Melee and brawl is Egg toss not being forced to only be a right angle, Crouch invincibility Yoshi has in melee, no egg toss hop in Melee, Melee egg roll having further distance in the air compared to Brawl's barely gaining as much distance as the Spacies or Zelda after using UpB for example, of course moves like F-tilt being changed, and then the things I mentioned with the Double Jump Cancels while already in the air when DR you can mostly only do it while still planted on the ground.

Spoiler

and easier wavedashing

Also, did you even watch the videos I posted? Our techs take a considerable amount of timing and inputs to get them right... especially when it's basically clicking three buttons in under one second to simply get the DR correctly

Spoiler

I'd post more videos, but seriously over the past 5 years, these things has been posted so many times by me and others, I'm sure people get tired of seeing them being brought up again and again. Especially by me.

 

[bubbaking]

Peachy-Desu, some Melee Peaches don't even know how to L-cancel because they just float cancel all their aerials in Melee. Sure Brawl Peaches have to float cancel all the time 'cause their aerial game is lackluster otherwise, but that doesn't mean Melee Peaches don't do it all the time. I play with several Peach mains all the time. Float cancelling is a very regular thing. You can't say it's mostly specific to Brawl just because you guys need it more.

Edit: Grounded float aerials are also really common in Melee.

How many characters, aside from the spacies even have this "technical stuff" that's not the usual Lcanceling and wavedashing?

You really don't know anything about Melee if you're asking that question. Even Sheik, one of the easiest chars in the game to pick up at a mid-level, is more technically demanding than you're letting on. Between Needle (charge) Cancels, Needle land-cancels, reverse variants of all those, and Shino stalling, Sheik is already more technical than just the regular "l-cancelling and wavedashing".

@Sinister Slush: I think you mistook what parrying is in Melee. At least, it seems that way from how you used it. Parrying is the use of the initial invincibility Yoshi has when putting up his shield, since it doesn't come out on frame 1. Afterwards, he can counterattack with anything, including DJC'd aerials, shieldgrab, etc.

 

[Espy Rose]

I find Brawl much harder technically than Melee because of the buffering.
But that's just me.

 

[Jrugs]

I think brawls just harder period. technical or not.

 

[KoNfucius]

I find Brawl much harder technically than Melee because of the buffering.
But that's just me.

The buffering is a pain in the butt and must be taken into account as a relevant topic in reference to brawls technical mechanics discussion. I would say brawl buffering is equally as important to competitive play as hand speed is to melee.

Before I get chewed out by melee players let me just as this is a personal opinion obtained from having played both competitively for Years.

To elaborate on my comment. If you
fast at melee it helps you win right. I'm not saying speed is all you need, but it helps right? However that speed does not translate over to brawl. Instead brawl relies on its buffering mechanic to use attacks at those precise time when they are most effective. Meaning if you good at buffering attacks in brawl it helps you just as much as speed does in melee.

In conclusion. I used to think speed made you more technical and buffering wasn't important. However taking time of from smash these past few month I decided to try my hand at tekken. And from tekken I learned how important buffering is in general. Because nothing is more frustrating than knowing you can't just input combos to fast or to slow you gotta be perfect.

 

[bubbaking]

@Jrugs: That's a different story, and that's probably because of the greater imbalance MK lends to the competitive scene. Like, without MK, Brawl is much more balanced than Melee straight-up. Unfortunately, with MK, Brawl is more imbalanced. I mean, look at the top 32 of each game at Apex 2013.

Of course, this is why everyone should just get into Project M.

Guys, there isn't really much way that buffering can make Brawl more technical than Melee. All buffering does is cause actions to be done on the first possible frame. These actions can still be done with Melee mechanics, but you just have to input them on the first possible frame yourself. In other words, Brawl buffering makes things EASIER because it literally enlarges the window of execution we have to input techniques that would require near inhuman speeds otherwise. If Melee had Brawl's buffering system, wavedashes would be the easiest thing on the planet. Every character has 3-8 frames of jumpsquat. If buffering existed in Melee, I'd just input jump > AD really quickly without a care in the world, but because Melee doesn't have buffering, each char's specific jump timing MUST be learned in order to wavedash or perform quick aerials successfully.

 

[Jrugs]

Agreed, but Project M is poison on the brawl community. But it is fun though.

 

[BSP]

Any game that's decent is a poison to the brawl community IMO.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You really don't know anything about Melee if you're asking that question. Even Sheik, one of the easiest chars in the game to pick up at a mid-level, is more technically demanding than you're letting on. Between Needle (charge) Cancels, Needle land-cancels, reverse variants of all those, and Shino stalling, Sheik is already more technical than just the regular "l-cancelling and wavedashing".

Those things you listed for aren't even hard in :melee:. Neither is L canceling or wavedashing as her lool.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh gosh, did you just use an icon to say "Melee"?

And LoL is incredibly strong poison to the Smash community as a whole.

 

[Jrugs]

Any game that's decent is a poison to the brawl community IMO.

People like you and 90% of the smash community always say that, but show up to tourneys the next day. Why is that brawl community?

 

[bubbaking]

Because I like Smash and Smash games are hard to come by. One game's recent but bad, one game's good but old, and one game's good and recent but not even official. They're all fun, though. Dangit, Smash!!!

 

[Jrugs]

But why is brawl so called bad? Its stuff like that that lets melee players keep down talking us. Or the reason why people keep asking "Why are there no smash fest". Its about time brawl players get off melee and start standing up for our own game. Where not ever going to get respect if we always say **** like "brawls bad, lets play persona" or "lets LOL" or "PM" or "Melee" or "insert brawl bandaid here_________". Ill admit brawl has some flaws and gay characters like: and gives reasons for our scene to loose people, but it's sad when we can prevent 20% of that decay by having some pride once in a while.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Oh gosh, did you just use an icon to say "Melee"?

And LoL is incredibly strong poison to the Smash community as a whole.

Don't question my usage of icons Stephen.

 

[bubbaking]

To be fair, Melee isn't much better. It's more fun, IMO, but that's clearly subjective. Melee is just as imbalanced, really. They're both bad, and P:M is the way of the future, and I'm not ashamed to say that everyone who plays either game should get on that train.

 

[infiniteV115]

I wouldn't even call and 'gay' characters. Just really and . And but he sucks.

Also yeah Jrugs, keep in mind that like 99% of the players that complain about how bad Brawl is aren't any good. I've never seen M2K, Ally, Nairo, ADHD, ESAM, Dabuz, Anti, Mike Haze, Mr.R etc ***** about how bad it is as a game. Chances are, the scrubs that complain about this game only think it sucks because they're too bad to get around things such as Falco's laser camping/DDD's running CG so to them, Brawl is nothing but chaingrabbing and camping.

Yes I do think Brawl has a few problems and a few 'gay' things but nowhere near the extent to which a lot of people make it seem.

 

[BSP]

People like you and 90% of the smash community always say that, but show up to tourneys the next day. Why is that brawl community?

For me, it was that the problems weren't big enough to stop me from playing.

 

[Espy Rose]

...to them, Brawl is nothing but chaingrabbing and camping.

At least half of the people you named abuse at least one of these things in their mains, so that particular viewpoint is actually justified.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD isn't any more 'gay' than Diddy or Snake. Stop playing bad characters.

 

[infiniteV115]

Implementing camping and chaingrabbing =/= abusing it.

And it still isn't justified cause I said 'nothing but camping and chaingrabbing'

 

[bubbaking]

You're going to be hard-put to defend that Snake, Falco, Olimar, Diddy, and MK don't abuse camping. Same goes for claiming that Diddy, Falco, and the ICs don't abuse stupid chains.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't even know what you mean by 'abuse' camping. How much is crossing the line between regular camping and abusing camping?

 

[Espy Rose]

When did I say they abused it?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Dedede is the best character in brawl

 

[BSP]

But why is brawl so called bad?

Compared to other fighting games, how exactly do we defend:

Random input delay
Tripping
Grab release shenanigans
Jab Locks
Edge slip mechanics

Most of our rulesets restricting characters (I.E., we restrict planking, meaning that it's a problem with the game)
Near non existent Shield stun
I almost forgot about RCO lag

There are more things that could go here (for example, IDK how everyone feels about infinites), but I think you see my point that we've got some fundamental problems. I, and most people apparently, don't think they kill the competitive drive, but they're still there.

Its about time brawl players get off melee and start standing up for our own game.

I'm not really talking about melee, I'm just looking at brawl alone atm.

I stand up for brawl when people try to assert that there is no skill involved when playing the game, because that's completely untrue (this is what most people who don't play Brawl or understand it very well claim). If someone calls it bad...by comparison, I can't really fight them from a competitive standpoint. Yes, we can and do work around the flaws, but still...

 

[pidgezero_one]

Brawl is bad.

But so is melee.

And so is 64.

This is a game where Kirby is fighting Pikachu for god's sake.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Why do people always complain about the game they play and why it sucks xD I swear no matter what game I come upon THERE'S ALWAYS PEOPLE *****ING ABOUT IT.

 

[Seagull Joe]

To be fair, Melee isn't much better. It's more fun, IMO, but that's clearly subjective. Melee is just as imbalanced, really. They're both bad, and P:M is the way of the future, and I'm not ashamed to say that everyone who plays either game should get on that train.

P:M is terrible.

 

[infiniteV115]

Compared to other fighting games, how exactly do we defend:
Grab release shenanigans
Jab Locks
Edge slip mechanics

Near non existent Shield stun
I almost forgot about RCO lag

MK is debatable, but I don't see how the rest of these are 'problems'. Like, at all. They're just mechanics.

 

[| Big D |]

Tripping is good.

Encourages new players to walk, have more options available to them.

Healthy for competition IMO.

 

[Psychoace]

MK is debatable, but I don't see how the rest of these are 'problems'. Like, at all. They're just mechanics.

Rco lag punishes a character for recovering and that's pretty lame. The frames for ground teching are also pretty terrible.